Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Draco-Onis]

Yeah, beeing the leader of the country when suffering the largest deathcount in decades/ever wont be a negative for his future when this war is over...this attack happened on his watch, ofc there will be a price to pay

If that has ever happened I can't think of any, they usually get carried to landslide victory in the next election cycle and are free to enact whatever law they want while people are distracted solidifying their power.

[The Stormbringer]

Muslims are people who follow the religion of Islam, while Islamists are specifically Muslims who want to impose their religious beliefs (such as Sharia Law) on a wider political, social, and cultural level. All Islamists are Muslims, but not all Muslims are Islamists.

Thank you! That's a very helpful explanation. I can definitely see why people would dislike Islamists, similar to how we dislike hardcore Christians who want to convert the USA into a Christian Nation.

[Draco-Onis]

Didn't Israel provide electricity, water and gas to Gaza in the first place?

I really fail to comprehend how cutting it off is considered fascism like some have claimed.

It's what I said, a bunch of people without any other agenda than to support terrorists who hate Jews and Israelis in general - including Muslims and Christians who want to live in peace. Gaza had so many opportunities to clean out hamas...

What is the incentive to clean out Hamas? would Israel stop taking their lands? killing their children? start treating them like humans? Hamas is a symptom not a cause. The Israeli government is the top Hamas recruiter especially this government with its actions and rhetoric.

[Kreuger]

If that has ever happened I can't think of any, they usually get carried to landslide victory in the next election cycle and are free to enact whatever law they want while people are distracted solidifying their power.

Well, 50 years ago the left had power and then lost it after yom kippur.

Its one thing beeing the leader when attacked(see Zelensky) and gain popularity when dealing with the crisis.

Or beeing the leader when suffering a devastating attack that are the fault(intelligence etc) of the government you are the leader of.

[Gaidax]

Didn't Israel provide electricity, water and gas to Gaza in the first place?

I really fail to comprehend how cutting it off is considered fascism like some have claimed.

It's what I said, a bunch of people without any other agenda than to support terrorists who hate Jews and Israelis in general - including Muslims and Christians who want to live in peace. Gaza had so many opportunities to clean out hamas...

Yes, we did, all these years through thick and thin - while they were burning literal billions of dollars of aid and what not building up insane military infrastructure to the point they were capable of launching tens of thousands of rockets while hiding in a city under the city they built.

The insanity of it all is mind-boggling. And all that fucking time, all that effort, those materials and all this money they did not invest into infrastructure for civilians. Because why should they, if those Israeli idiots provide power, water and petrol?

And now after their de-facto government in Gaza fucking rushes in and murders 1000 of our civilians for nothing in a blink of an eye, people like that guy expect we will keep up business as usual propping their regime with freebies.

No.

[NoiseTank13]

What is the incentive to clean out Hamas? would Israel stop taking their lands? killing their children? start treating them like humans? Hamas is a symptom not a cause. The Israeli government is the top Hamas recruiter especially this government with its actions and rhetoric.

To expound on this, Hamas was formed after the US and Israel asked the Palestinian's to hold an election so that Palestine can come to the table. Hamas was not the party the U.S or Israel wanted, so they backed out on it.

[Draco-Onis]

Well, 50 years ago the left had power and then lost it after yom kippur.

Its one thing beeing the leader when attacked(see Zelensky) and gain popularity when dealing with the crisis.

Or beeing the leader when suffering a devastating attack that are the fault(intelligence etc) of the government you are the leader of.

George Bush didn't pay the price for 9/11 and we know from the investigations that it was a massive intelligence failure. That didn't stop him from winning the election and passing many fascist laws that we still can't get rid of.

[Gaidax]

To expound on this, Hamas was formed after the US and Israel asked the Palestinian's to hold an election so that Palestine can come to the table. Hamas was not the party the U.S or Israel wanted, so they backed out on it.

Nice revisionism.

What's next, you gonna tell us that Hamas was actually an inside job?

[Spectral]

George Bush didn't pay the price for 9/11 and we know from the investigations that it was a massive intelligence failure. That didn't stop him from winning the election and passing many fascist laws that we still can't get rid of.

Intelligence agencies in general pursue a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose strategy. If a terror attack is foiled, that is evidence of the righteousness and excellence of the intelligence agency, their methods and funding must not be questioned. If a terror attack is successfully carried out, that is evidence that the intelligence agencies are underfunded and over restricted - they need more resources and more power going forward. I can't remember any time in my life where any rollback in spy powers or funding were curtailed as anything more than a brief setback.

I suspect that the dynamic in Israel will unfold similarly, with Netanyahu and friends claiming that the whole problem is that they didn't have enough power.

[Gaidax]

George Bush didn't pay the price for 9/11 and we know from the investigations that it was a massive intelligence failure. That didn't stop him from winning the election and passing many fascist laws that we still can't get rid of.

George Bush did not lead the country for 15 years when 9/11 happened, neither the writing was as on the wall as we had with Hamas. 9/11 did not follow 2 decades of rocket barrages against US cities and constant 2-3 years cycles of violence in Gaza.

By all counts what we had here is worse than 9/11, because 9/11 one could be excused to not see it coming or being prepared for that. For Netanyahu - there is no such excuse, the enemy was right at the gate, and he had 15 years to prepare.

Netanyahu will go the same way Golda Meir went - they both fucked up when the real test came and almost in the same fashion. Meir resigned, her party won the elections after 1973, but her coalition was nowhere to be found anymore - it went to the people who voted against her.

This is literal history 1 to 1, such fuckups are not forgivable. And I fucking hope we will manage to achieve what we did in 1973, but something tells me we will fall quite short of that, so that's even worse outlook for Netanyahu.

[Draco-Onis]

George Bush did not lead the country for 15 years when 9/11 happened, neither the writing was as on the wall as we had with Hamas. 9/11 did not follow 2 decades of rocket barrages against US cities and constant 2-3 years cycles of violence in Gaza.

By all counts what we had here is worse than 9/11, because 9/11 one could be excused to not see it coming or being prepared for that. For Netanyahu - there is no such excuse, the enemy was right at the gate, and he had 15 years to prepare.

Netanyahu will go the same way Golda Meir went - they both fucked up when the real test came and almost in the same fashion. Meir resigned, her party won the elections after 1973, but her coalition was nowhere to be found anymore - it went to the people who voted against her.

This is literal history 1 to 1, such fuckups are not forgivable.

Human nature doesn't change though he can excuse it in many ways from lack of funding to finding a fall guy but the opposition to him is going to be singing the same tune in terms of response. The people are usually too scared to hand the reigns to another leader and all the rage is directed at the Palestinians and will remain so not the leadership.

I don't see the Israeli population being logical and calm when making electoral decisions the times are the opposite not to mention they didn't even when he was obviously not the right choice in better times. Bibi is a warm blanket that they are used to and can't get rid of, he lasted this long for a reason he is practically king and will be after he passes his "reforms".

[gondrin]

For those of us ignorant, mind giving a brief rundown of what this actually means? What are Islamists?

EDIT: The reason I'm asking for clarification here is because, as I understand it, the Muslim religion is called "Islam", and therefore "Islamists" just sounds like another word for Muslim to me. What's the difference???

Ok, the difference between a Muslim and an Islamist is basically one is someone who believes in the teachings of Islam(Muslim) and an Islamist is an extremist in that religion. It is the same as a Christian Nationalist, what would be far right Catholic groups, ultra-orthodox Jewish groups and other groups that tend to use their beliefs to justify doing extremely disgusting and heinous things.

[NoiseTank13]

And now after their de-facto government in Gaza fucking rushes in and murders 1000 of our civilians for nothing in a blink of an eye, people like that guy expect we will keep up business as usual propping their regime with freebies.

No.

You do not get to sit there with a straight face, no matter how right it feels in the moment, that it was 'for nothing.' You keep humans contained in a box, graced with utilities that they are not allowed to facillitate themselves, or have any sort of independence, or a chance to better their current environment and neighborhoods, because why become a doctor or go to school when that building is likely going to get blown up with you in it?

'They didn't invest in infrastructure!' why would they when it's going to get demolished/seized by settlers?

You keep humans in a box, you keep jerking them around with a chain and generally treating them like animals, don't act shocked when they act like animals and lash out like monsters.

And, since I know this post will read as a personal attack to you, for what little it's worth, it's not. I know you love your country and love your neighbors, and I am sorry about the loss of life and kidnappings. They do not deserve that, and I hope as many as possible gets rescued and the kidnappers left in a ditch with a gutshot.

But I am not sorry for my belief that the Palestinian's have been consistently mistreated and abused, not just by their elected officials, but the Israeli and US (which I am a part of) governments as well. I hope you are right that Netanyahu gets put out to pasture after this, and I hope that something significantly progressive comes after the end of this with minimal bloodshed.

My last post, I turned this from a discussion of current events to an old battleground debate and that was a poor idea.

[Gaidax]

Don't forget the bombs and demolition of schools, hospitals and other infrastructure they needed because "Hamas was there," which yeah, they would be, they are the government. I'm also sure the journalist that was murdered by IDF forces there would thank you for the Israel provided utilities, what a nice prison warden.

Which hospital we have demolished pray tell? Shifa is standing right there, undisturbed as ever, despite us knowing full well that Hamas uses it as a storage facility for their ammunition and what not.

You are just parroting shit you're hearing from hell knows what sources and are ignorant to just about any facts.

As I said it's pointless to engage with you and this is the last of it.

[Easo]

Yes, but given I'm pushing 40 and I am guidance and optics engineering expert for equipment that was already being phased out 20 years ago - I don't expect to be called.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay that 72 hours BS got clarified, apparently, it's a refresh of the existing guidelines for safe spaces. It's just those idiots presented it in a way that caused panic. When I got to the store it was half emptied already.

I guess it won't hurt having extras anyway, who knows what is going to happen next week.

Good luck to you in any case.
P.S.
I hope those are not fucking M113's cause those will outlive both of us xD

Ah, right, so you are pro war crimes. With war crimes wars are fought is quite the take.

pretty sick

Ahh, internet, never change.

[tehdang]

heads-I-win-tails-you-lose strategy. If a terror attack is foiled, that is evidence of the righteousness and excellence of the intelligence agency, their methods and funding must not be questioned. If a terror attack is successfully carried out, that is evidence that the intelligence agencies are underfunded and over restricted - they need more resources and more power going forward.

That's true of almost every government bureaucracy. Which is why the popularly elected representatives can and must hold bipartisan investigations afterwards that are backward-looking into who did what wrong and what must change.

Hamas was formed after the US and Israel asked the Palestinian's to hold an election so that Palestine can come to the table. Hamas was not the party the U.S or Israel wanted, so they backed out on it.

This isn't even a wikipedia-level understanding of Hamas. Do people actually have no clue about elections in non-Israel mandatory palestine areas prior to Hamas formation and prior to them contesting elections?

[Regarding Second Post]
I see this is just typical post-hoc rationalization. Hamas doesn't use aid to help its civilians, because of Israel. It instead invests the donated dollars in rockets and launchers to a capacity of large initial-strike capability because of Israel. Hamas pursues terrorism because of Israel. It fails to use billions on its own electrical, gas, and water because of Israel. Hamas uses hospitals and schools for its military infrastructure because of Israel. The organization has barely any agency at all, in the eyes of its defenders. From formation, Hamas was committed to expanding its territory and delegitimizing Israel's existence as a state, which makes it a little easy to see why it takes aid and funnels it into the war effort instead of independent utilities and a better life for its governed citizens.

[Gaidax]

I hope those are not fucking M113's cause those will outlive both of us xD

No, and yes they are still used to carry engineering and support teams, despite being made out fucking paper. It was... quaint... to see them still being used in some pictures I've seen.

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't even a wikipedia-level understanding of Hamas. Do people actually have no clue about elections in non-Israel mandatory palestine areas prior to Hamas formation and prior to them contesting elections?

it's not even that, considering it's an offshoot terrorist organization spawned from the Muslim Brotherhood back in the 80s.

[tehdang]

it's not even that, considering it's an offshoot terrorist organization spawned from the Muslim Brotherhood back in the 80s.

Posted as regards

Hamas was formed after the US and Israel asked the Palestinian's to hold an election so that Palestine can come to the table.

Both first part (it was not formed for that, it was formed as you said) and second part (elections and parties existed far prior to its formation) are wrong. Any conception of what the US and Israel wanted from "Palestinians," as such, "coming to the table," has to go back to previous peace settlements after failed wars. These far pre-date Hamas.

[PACOX]

This is an actual full out fucking war, my dear wallflower. You expect us to supply the enemy government with power and utilities. You're out of wack.

Let Hamas deal with that - they started this shit, so I am sure they thought about how to cover the populace they govern. They had 2 decades to build the infrastructure for the populace to not be dependent on them "Nazis" and instead they spent 2 decades to build their bunkers and launchpads.

The Palestinians should stand up to Hamas


but also


Let's cut off their food and water so they have no choice but to rely on Hamas


You know it doesn't make sense. At least you're starting to drop the facade by describing and embracing what's going on as fascism. We know you won't actually use the f word but it's not necessary.

<...> cuts off food, water, and gas to <...> residents is a always a headline med with disgust. waR Is waR is not an excuse, an excuse only uttered when people know they are committing crimes against humanity.

At least Bibi the Butcher isn't going through get kicked out anytime soon!

[Voidism]

Yes, we did, all these years through thick and thin - while they were burning literal billions of dollars of aid and what not building up insane military infrastructure to the point they were capable of launching tens of thousands of rockets while hiding in a city under the city they built.

The insanity of it all is mind-boggling. And all that fucking time, all that effort, those materials and all this money they did not invest into infrastructure for civilians. Because why should they, if those Israeli idiots provide power, water and petrol?

And now after their de-facto government in Gaza fucking rushes in and murders 1000 of our civilians for nothing in a blink of an eye, people like that guy expect we will keep up business as usual propping their regime with freebies.

No.

Well, if it makes a difference you have support among many in countries that you might not have expected. While we have funded non-violent West Bank peaceful 2-state solution focused projects previously from Sweden, now that is on the verge of ending since any kind of support might be corrupted away to hamas or alleviate terror organization's burdens - let them figure it out if they love "their" people so much.

The past 1.5 years, Ukraine war, have cured me of the remaining amount of westernized socialism I was suffering from (communists here in Sweden seem to love putin), and this terror attack tore off the puppy eye masks from these hamas lovers and their actual agenda - they aren't just clueless, they are actively working against peace and that's why they love hamas.