Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Semihagez]

No it gives you time, you get no advantage other than time because a person who doesn't give them money for a boost gets the exact same thing just later.

Not true.. Because then a new raid tier comes.. And the power (aka ilvl) you have acquired is only considered "average" in the new raid tier. That's basically how P2W grind game works. It's a carrot that's hanging in front of you, when you reached the carrot, you only get to take a few bite before they take it away and place another carrot further out for you to chase. Or you can spend money and get the carrort right a way so you have longer time to eat the entire thing, but eventually you will be hungry again and they will just place another carrot further out for you toreeach.

[InflaterMouse]

For someone accusing someone else of not reading the last 10-15 pages you sure don't know what has actually been discussed lol.

I an fully aware, I have a different opinion. My opinion kind of follows the definition of what p2w is. The rest of this conversation falls under "interpretations" and emotional responses to that definition.

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Not true.. Because then a new raid tier comes.. And the power (aka ilvl) you have acquired is only considered "average" in the new raid tier. That's basically how P2W grind game works. It's a carrot that's hanging in front of you, when you reached the carrot, you only get to take a few bite before they take it away and place another carrot further out for you to chase. Or you can spend money and get the carrort right a way so you have longer time to eat the entire thing, but eventually you will be hungry again and they will just place another carrot further out for you toreeach.

What is done after the boost isn't relevant to the conversation. Not sure you are up on the raiding scene, but when raids are completed they are farmed until your main, your alts and your buddies alt have 95%-100% of all upgrades available. A new player nor a boosted player are going to farm raids unless they (new or boosted) have in game gold to pay for a "boost" or are in a guild that will drag them through the content.

Some of our guys that boosted missed a raid lock out between the time they boosted and the first raid lock out. From the time I started a brand new level 1 shaman until I went into my first raid I only missed one lock out as well. Sorry I don't agree.

[MoanaLisa]

Just to insert a note of reality to this discussion:

• This has been ongoing ever since the sparkle pony.
• Everyone has their own definition of P2W and is not going to be swayed now.
• It's all rather a pointless discussion that mainly happens so people can vent hostility toward anyone who disagrees with them.

There's nothing new in that but it bears repeating once in a while just so people can bear that in mind while they're busy crafting their next barrage of insults, etc. I don't think I've seen a new argument put forth about this in years. So circle around the drain as much as you like.

My own view is that it really doesn't matter at all. If you're offended for paying a monthly subscription and the availability of cosmetic store stuff or tokens on top of that then you're not wrong. If none of that bothers you, you're not wrong either. This has been the proverbial 'slippery slope' for over 10 years and it hasn't really gotten any more or less slippery in all that time.

Now the part that will piss y'all off I guess: I used to think I would be appalled if they sold power in the store. I don't think I would now although it would take some corporate stones to do that and have a subscription in the bargain. Blizzard very definitely has the stones and it's the very best indication that the game is doing OK that they've never done it. I would never use anything like that, just like I practically never use the stores on mobile apps and games.

If a game is too rapacious for your pocketbook play what you can for free, leave when you've squeezed every last drop of content out of it that doesn't cost anything, and never think of it again. If you don't mind spending money then that's your business. I am admittedly a mostly solo player in all of my games at this point so this shit is easy for me. I ignore it because it simply doesn't matter.

[Semihagez]

Wow is about as pay2win as super mario bros.

Yeah you can pay a guy to beat bowser for you but your still an idiot who can't beat bowser. So you didn't win anything.

Get out of your bubbles and play other games than wow. Most p2w games are grind for 40 hours for sword of the awesome OR pay $139.99 for sword of the awesome +10!!!!!!! That you can't get anywhere else.

It's 2021 so woke twitter Karens gonna complain I guess.

A BAD P2W game will lock out sword of awesome +10 under paywall. A Good P2W game will still let you get sword of awesome +10 for free, but you have to log in for 4 months straight to get that.. And by the time you get the sword of awesome +10, a new tier of content has already been released and all the paying whales are whacking ppl with sword of awesome +50... which you can only get if you grind for another 4 months..

[MoanaLisa]

I an fully aware, I have a different opinion. My opinion kind of follows the definition of what p2w is. The rest of this conversation falls under "interpretations" and emotional responses to that definition.

There is no 'agreed-upon-by-all' definition of pay-to win. There just isn't.

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A Good P2W game will still let you get sword of awesome +10 for free, but you have to log in for 4 months straight to get that.

In fact I look for games with this sort of revenue model. I dropped one mobile golf game for another because of this. If you enjoy the game then a long grind over weeks or months shouldn't matter.

[InflaterMouse]

There is no 'agreed-upon-by-all' definition of pay-to win. There just isn't.

I realize that, but there are definitions. The definition that you can google are very much the same across many fronts. So just because we don't agree with what is available doesn't make it any less viable or usable as a standard. We can not agree with any standard set, doesn't make us right.

[Semihagez]

There is no 'agreed-upon-by-all' definition of pay-to win. There just isn't.

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In fact I look for games with this sort of revenue model. I dropped one mobile golf game for another because of this. If you enjoy the game then a long grind over weeks or months shouldn't matter.

Yes.. but for a lot of people this means pay 2 win as well. I guess we are just arguing semantics in the end.

[InflaterMouse]

Just to insert a note of reality to this discussion:

• This has been ongoing ever since the sparkle pony.
• Everyone has their own definition of P2W and is not going to be swayed now.
• It's all rather a pointless discussion that mainly happens so people can vent hostility toward anyone who disagrees with them.

There's nothing new in that but it bears repeating once in a while just so people can bear that in mind while they're busy crafting their next barrage of insults, etc. I don't think I've seen a new argument put forth about this in years. So circle around the drain as much as you like.

My own view is that it really doesn't matter at all. If you're offended for paying a monthly subscription and the availability of cosmetic store stuff or tokens on top of that then you're not wrong. If none of that bothers you, you're not wrong either. This has been the proverbial 'slippery slope' for over 10 years and it hasn't really gotten any more or less slippery in all that time.

Now the part that will piss y'all off I guess: I used to think I would be appalled if they sold power in the store. I don't think I would now although it would take some corporate stones to do that and have a subscription in the bargain. Blizzard very definitely has the stones and it's the very best indication that the game is doing OK that they've never done it. I would never use anything like that, just like I practically never use the stores on mobile apps and games.

If a game is too rapacious for your pocketbook play what you can for free, leave when you've squeezed every last drop of content out of it that doesn't cost anything, and never think of it again. If you don't mind spending money then that's your business. I am admittedly a mostly solo player in all of my games at this point so this shit is easy for me. I ignore it because it simply doesn't matter.

I agree with most of what you said. If they actually sold real power in game, that actually impacted the game I would probably quit the game that day. I don't see boosting as relevant in the least regarding an actual impact on the game.

[TheRevenantHero]

Not trying to define anything, but you should look at the definition of p2w. It would help you during the argument you are trying to make.

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In a game that defines power by item level of gear no, I wouldn't say it falls into a double standard. Just my honest opinion.

P2W is when you can spend money to gain an advantage over a player that is NOT spending money. which is exactly what the level boost is.

[InflaterMouse]

Yes.. but for a lot of people this means pay 2 win as well. I guess we are just arguing semantics in the end.

Probably. I have asked questions of those talking about skipping content like "if you have a geared 60 and have cleared all content does that still apply?" and go no answer. The power thing in wow is pretty clearly gear related and they aren't selling gear. So not sure, probably like you said its semantics at this point.

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P2W is when you can spend money to gain an advantage over a player that is NOT spending money. which is exactly what the level boost is.

I don't see that as an advantage, sorry.

[Caerrona]

A BAD P2W game will lock out sword of awesome +10 under paywall. A Good P2W game will still let you get sword of awesome +10 for free, but you have to log in for 4 months straight to get that.. And by the time you get the sword of awesome +10, a new tier of content has already been released and all the paying whales are whacking ppl with sword of awesome +50... which you can only get if you grind for another 4 months..

So people are arguing that wow is pay2win because it has tiers? And gear progression? Like the moron talking about a carrot on a stick?

I have bought gold in every expansion that has existed. So all of wow has been p2w or none of it i guess?

[perkocet]

P2W is when you can spend money to gain an advantage over a player that is NOT spending money. which is exactly what the level boost is.

As defined by you, yes, I suppose it is.

[Semihagez]

The probelm is power degrades over time when new contents goes out.. If you are mythic geared in Uldir, do you honest think you are going to get an invite to a heroic Ny'alotha raid? No of course not.. Because power degrades over time. And how fast it degrades depends on how often new contents get released. The only reason we feel like we were able to hold onto power longer right now is actually due to the pandemic which force Blizzard to release new content slower.. Buit suppose 9.1 came out in February while you are still trying to figure out heroic Denathrius. Then you will feel the heat because you just lost an AOTC forever and you have to face a new area where trash mobs can beat you down easily even when you are ilvl 213.

That's how successful P2W games operates (aka.. Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes).. They keep releasing new content that makes the F2P players feel likey they can never stay at top for long compared to paying whales.

[TheRevenantHero]

Not trying to define anything, but you should look at the definition of p2w. It would help you during the argument you are trying to make.

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In a game that defines power by item level of gear no, I wouldn't say it falls into a double standard. Just my honest opinion.

so because you can't pay to become some ultimate god of the gaming world in a game, that makes it not pay to win? Give me a fucking break. I DID look up what pay to win is. It's pretty universal that it involves being able to spend real money to gain advantages in game. And once again, that's literally what the paid level boost is. Just because you refuse to accept/acknowledge it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

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As defined by you, yes, I suppose it is.

As defined by the definition of the word "advantage" actually.

[huth]

P2W is when you can spend money to gain an advantage over a player that is NOT spending money. which is exactly what the level boost is.

Being the same level with worse gear is not an advantage over somebody else. It's a disadvantage.

There's also the tiny issue that everybody gets a boost for free, so you can get the exact same advantage without any spending.

By your own definition, the boost doesn't count.

[TheRevenantHero]

Being the same level with worse gear is not an advantage over somebody else. It's a disadvantage.

It's really not and you can try and redefine what an advantage is all you want. You're still wrong every time. The gear you get from a boost is actually better than what an average player would get if they weren't heavy into raiding. So you are given decent gear that will help you clear content AND you are given four free 16 slot bags. Sure 16 slot bags are only like....maybe 20 gold a piece but that's 80 gold a boosted character didn't need to spend. So you're utterly wrong about it being a disadvantage.

[rhorle]

In a game that defines power by item level of gear no, I wouldn't say it falls into a double standard. Just my honest opinion.

Item level and character level. Since the gear all requires level 60. While level is a minor form of power it is still a form of power.

[InflaterMouse]

Being the same level with worse gear is not an advantage over somebody else. It's a disadvantage.

That has been my point the entire time, and he just recently looked up the definition because for the last 2 pages he has been using the word "advantage" a lot to try and push his points.

I simply do NOT agree that it falls into the definition of advantage. They absolutely got nothing a person that leveled to 60 got other than shit green gear that isn't relevant at all.

[Caerrona]

It's really not and you can try and redefine what an advantage is all you want. You're still wrong every time. The gear you get from a boost is actually better than what an average player would get if they weren't heavy into raiding. So you are given decent gear that will help you clear content AND you are given four free 16 slot bags. Sure 16 slot bags are only like....maybe 20 gold a piece but that's 80 gold a boosted character didn't need to spend. So you're utterly wrong about it being a disadvantage.

^ ah when clowns think a boost makes wow p2w. What a thrilling time to be alive.

[InflaterMouse]

Item level and character level. Since the gear all requires level 60. While level is a minor form of power it is still a form of power.

But you aren't getting something a person leveling isn't. My level 58 shaman was lightyears ahead of a boosted level 58 if you want to compare apples to apples and not apples to footballs. My level 58 was geared in ALL blues, almost maxed on gather professions, first aid, cooking and had lost of reputation gains. I was able to be productive walking into the raids at the end of that week and started the new content in a much better place than ALL of our boosted folks.

I can't see that as a power gain or advantage to for the boosted player.