Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[rhorle]

What contradiction? You keep saying that, and i cant find it. Please stop inventing stuff that is not there.

Ding ding ding....And the reason is price and demand. Too many people selling Tokens (price goes down). Why? Too many people trying to get that mount, by selling Tokens

The prices went up, the demand for Tokens went up back then. And the price of the token went up, just like right now the Token is 190k in less than a few months, since back then, it used to cost 150k around December 2020.

So the price went up because the AH mount and the price went down because of to many trying for the mount. That is a contradiction. Both can not be true at the same time because both are stating opposite things.

[docterfreeze]

After 62 pages everything has been said already but whatever. Pay to win has no true definition. I think buying gold which can be used to buy the highest level gear qualifies as pay to win.

[rhorle]

for every token ever passing the AH, Blizz earns 7 bugs for free, by doing nothing. because one person have to had paid 20 bugs (+20 for Blizz) and put the token into AH, before another person can get the token for gold in the AH and pay his sub (-13 for blizz) with this token.

Blizzard earns $5 for a token. It is $20 with a $15 value. The price of 1-month of game time or $15 in Blizzard balance. The $13 for game time is only reached when buying a 6 months at a time. The price is brought down to $13 per month for a total of $77.94 for 6-months. (Note it is $12.99 which is why it isn't actually 13x6). Boosting was prevalent in Shadowlands even before the introduction of Valor. So that isn't related to the token and your conspiracy.

You find a lot of advertisement for boost just because it is a popular way to make gold and real money. Those listings have existed even prior to Shadowlands and prior to the Valor smart cash grab was implemented in Shadowlands. There is a reason why people have created addons or weak auras to filter out the advertisements prior to Shadowlands launching.

Another flaw is that the tokens have increased because of the new content and not solely because of boosts. So there is nothing simple about your claims.

[rhorle]

You are not able to defend your boosts/tokens as much as you want, because you don't have the tools to do it. It's P2W, and @Niwes gave you a fair explanation of Blizzard tactics to boost the sales.

Flawed because of inaccuracies is about as far from fair as you can get. Blizzard hasn't been using any tactics to boost the sales of tokens. The players themselves are what drive the boosts. If no player wanted gear with out putting in the effort then no amount of game design would allow for boosts to exist. Blizzard also hasn't changed the dynamics of groups and group content.

Overwatch didn't fail because a lack of loot boxes in some countries.

[Askyl]

You can't just skip 50 levels of content in WoW without spending money. therefore, WoW is p2w because you are spending real money to purchase player power and are gaining an advantage over players NOT spending real money.

No, that's a boost. You don't gain any real advantage over other players in the game since spending real money isn't as powerful as being skilled or have more time to play. Please understand that. That's what P2W is. Getting an advantage that trumps time and skill. Not a very hard concept.

You're just trying to change the meaning of a word (Well, phrase) to hate on a company. That's how sad you're acting now.

I don't really care much for the boost, I get that people wanna jump straight into TBC but it's quite boring to lvl Draenei with my GF and there's literally only shamans around and its close to impossible to find a group. Because of the boost.

But that doesn't make it P2W. Buying gear better than T4 in the current phase would be. Buying a special skill you can use in Arena would be.

[arkanon]

its close to impossible to find a group. Because of the boost.

Just wanted to point out this has very little to do with the boost, as the overwhelming majority of people would be playing TBC anyway, not leveling, so there really is no connection there. I can understand why someone might mistakenly think "people who boosted would be questing with me if not for the boost!" but the reality is they simply wouldn't be playing, or would be playing whatever main they had, they used the boost primarily because they did not want to play through vanilla again...

[potis]

Thank you for explaining another reason why SL sucks and the Token scheme.

The issue here is that the Token doesnt look like a P2W (Boost does clearly), but Blizzard didnt designed SL blindly. They designed the game focus on creating the most efficient way to farm people pockets. You made a clear explanation of how it works. Is Blizzard own work behind the game, that smart design on how they abuse the Token. And make people feel they are "Winning" by using it.

I wonder if this would ever call the attention of the authorities in the US or Europe?

Or you know, dont be terrible at the game.

I played averagely 12h per week including the 4hr raids, spread out on different characters, after the first month where i was playing more to farm the initial wave of new things.

3 characters are 225, 1 is 205 cause i couldnt be bothered, have barely been playing the last 2 months.

What are you gonna say to the authorities?

"I am terrible at the game and i have 20 kids and 40 dogs and because i dont have time to play i am suing the company because it introduced Tokens since people buy gold from unofficial ways either way, and they are getting hacked because they are technologically illiterate?"

Yea, i can see the lawsuit going far.

[sam86]

That isn't gambling. Spending money on a 100% guarantee is not gambling. That type of exaggeration puts your other statistics into doubt as you have no one of proving how many people bought tokens for their mounts. It is also a safe bet that some people did buy their mount purely by farming. You so people post here, on reddit, and other wow fan sites about their gold often enough to know that plenty had more then 5 million and still do.

it was gamble to try farm 5 million in 9 months that was given, most ppl don't even sit on 1 million in first place, so while it is 'guarantee' to get gold from token in last 1 million, the process itself is a huge gamble, will u actually be able to farm non stop and get entire 5 million gold in time? the answer for most ppl is no, since main source of gold is AH, and when everyone try to sell shit on AH, no one will, AH prices dropped dramatically at early announce days and specially last month
Do i have official info about who did what, of course not, nor u, nor anyone beside blizz, and blizz hide their numbers since WoD on purpose, because for a MMO game, they don't want to show they killed the MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER part of game just to turn it to cash cow, how many ppl will want to play a MMO with barely a thousand sub per server?
activision has a far better PR team than EA since they made Bobby shut the fuck up since years when he got CEO title and made few interviews showing his pure hatred towards gaming and how he sees us lower than insects and exist only to be abused and milked out of cash, heck his statement about how he wanted to increase game prices since years and take money from gamers alone if was done just 5 years later when internet took control over everything doubt EA would hold title of worst gaming company ever, but surprising even if they aren't hidden, few to none care to check his old interviews (probably because gaming industry has non stop new news, like the biggest fuck up lie for preorders that was No Man Sky)

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the reason for the tokens is simply that actual game design of SL support selling tokens. thats Blizzards way to support their smart cash grab system by game design.

if you dont know what i talking about:

in SL you can not further upgrade PvE gear via VP, or conquest PvP gear, until you reach some goal. in example you need KSM achievements +10 or +15 to further upgrade gear with VP. in PvP you need 1400 rating to upgrade to 207, 1600 to upgrade to 213, 1800 to upgrade to 220 and so on. this means, ppl pay a lot of boost grps with gold, boosting them to that requirement levels, so they can further increase their gear. the quickest way to get that gold, is to buy a token for RL money.

for every token ever passing the AH, Blizz earns 7 bugs for free, by doing nothing. because one person have to had paid 20 bugs (+20 for Blizz) and put the token into AH, before another person can get the token for gold in the AH and pay his sub (-13 for blizz) with this token.

supporting heavy use of this token via game design backdoor mechanics (like requirement levels like KSM or PvP levels) is called a smart cash grab system. SL game design heavily supports this. and it works like a charm.

for the case you dont believe this, you can check HOW much more WTS entries you find in PUG tool these days or check the token websites, to see, how much tokens are sold. multiplicate this with 7 bugs for Blizz for free and you see how fukin much profit they get with this automatic system, by doing nothing.

in short: the smart cash grab game design of SL is the solely reason why token sells are so upwards since november. good for greedy Bobby.

simple as that.

the problem that system is a little too complex than 1+1 for deniers to understand how it is P2W

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After 62 pages everything has been said already but whatever. Pay to win has no true definition. I think buying gold which can be used to buy the highest level gear qualifies as pay to win.

it shouldn't be negotiable in first place for a full priced game to have ANY form on microtransaction in it, regardless of wow is P2W or not, it shouldn't have a cash shop in first place of any form, this isn't just paying an expansion price like a full game, u also have to pay monthly sub that far out-cost any maintenance costs blizz claim need to keep servers
U can discuss all u want if wow is p2w or not, but what shouldn't be discussed in first place is a full price game and full price expansion AND a sub based monthly fee game also still dare to sell u items on cash shop!

[neik]

Paying with real life money to go from zero to hero instantaneously, you are in fact paying to win. You might don't think that's P2W, but it's on you.

[Ogarash]

Ok so sure. You can buy gold with real money.
With this gold:
You can buy gear off the AH.
You can buy boosts in dungeons and raids to get gear.
With this gold you'll be geared af. Granted you'll need to lay down some serious cash. A boost of Mythic Nathria is going for several million etc and one token at 20 euros is 200k ish?

At the end of this you'll have a very geared pixel.
With this pixel you'll go and think you'll now get into all the best groups, guilds etc. But you won't. Because you haven't a clue of what to do. So..if P2W is being a guildless ubergeared wacko everyone knows bought his gear and wouldn't think twice about recruiting this person to actually play the game then..yeah..I guess WoW is P2W and has been so wince Vanilla.

[Lolites]

Yes clearly the ability to buy tokens to buy gear is pay to win.

I don't understand why there is a 60 page topic about such an inconfusable and clear thing.

People who argue it's not p2w are delusional.

i love how you swoop in, dont bother to read any of the previous discusion, state your OPINION as a fact and claim others delusional
you need some serious reality check my dude, bcs seems like you are the one delusional...

[Lochton]

Ugh, so, after a night's sleep, we've come to the following overview in the development of this thread.

WoW has been indirectly P2W since its launch, but some breaking ToS.
WoW has been indirectly exclusive P2W since October 2006, not breaking ToS.
WoW has been directly P2W with the addition of character boost since WoD, not breaking ToS.
WoW has been inclusive P2W since WoD (6.1.2), not breaking ToS

WoW is Pay-To-Win due to the following...

... Directly P2W due to purchase of a boost from the Blizzard store with a credit card (Except to some, it seems, and others, P2W if bought with a converted token).
... Indirectly P2W due to the sales of game-time/token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of game-time/token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of TCG loot for gold made with a token, or earned from someone using a token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the sale of TCG loot for gold.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of cosmetics for gold made by a token sale.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of cosmetics for currency from a converted token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of cosmetics sold by someone selling TCG.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of cosmetics sold by someone who might've used a token in the process.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of items with gold from the token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the sale of items to someone with gold from a token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of boosts with gold from a token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the sale of boosting services for gold possibly from a token.
... Indirectly P2W due to the purchase of expansions from a converted token purchased by gold.
... Indirectly P2W due to the chances of your completing content with a person who has utilized the token for one of the above.


Apparently, according to some, is not Pay-to-win to purchase cosmetics with a credit card. Nor is it to purchase a boost, with a credit card.

So, we have the following headlines throughout the thread.

"Visual advantages".
"Time-saving advantages".
"Economic advantages".
"Real money advantages" (Though to some, it is not).
"Power advantages"

The store sells the following

Services, apparently not an advantage unless purchased with a converted token.
Character boost, Power advantages, and Time-saving advantages, and Real money advantages (Apparently not P2W according to some, unless purchased with a converted token)
Mounts, Visual advantages, and Real money advantages (Apparently not P2W according to some, unless purchased with a converted token)
Pets, Visual advantages, and Economic advantages. and Real money advantages
Toys, Visual advantages, and Economic advantages. and Real money advantages
Transmogs, Visual advantages, and Real money advantages

[Lolites]

So long as there are BOE's and a Carry Culture, WoW is Pay to Win. Get rid of them both and you'd have a non-P2W game. Until then you can literally pay money - to win. It's not complicated.

maybe, but then its p2w SINCE BOEs and carries, so since vanila...

[czarek]

No it isnt. You can achive all with literally no extra $ or gold. If u sucks ofc you cant but this does not mean its P2W

[Lolites]

Buying things from other players, in my view, posits a black or gray market that's beyond services provided by Blizzard or its subsidiaries. In that sense, P2W has always and will continue to exist, as long as players can pay other players do the work for them or what have you. So that is P2W, but it's not P2W that is endorsed, sanctioned, or provided by Blizzard. The token doesn't even really matter in this context, as you could just as easily facilitate those services via direct payments (and that is how it used to be done). In that sense, the token is a safer alternative for players, but it doesn't change the black market's nature or presence.

THANK YOU
some people seems to be unable to understand token is nothing else but new payment method, selling stuff/gold/gear was a thing since vanila, before token was even a thought...

[Lochton]

Buying things from other players, in my view, posits a black or gray market that's beyond services provided by Blizzard or its subsidiaries. In that sense, P2W has always and will continue to exist, as long as players can pay other players do the work for them or what have you. So that is P2W, but it's not P2W that is endorsed, sanctioned, or provided by Blizzard. The token doesn't even really matter in this context, as you could just as easily facilitate those services via direct payments (and that is how it used to be done). In that sense, the token is a safer alternative for players, but it doesn't change the black market's nature or presence.

Indeed! That is how I see it too, basically.

[Lolites]

It can be considered pay to win, but not in the traditional "buy gear off shop" way. These days you can buy gold through the token, which can then be used to buy boosts for raids/arena, so in a way yes it is.

but you could buy boosts/gear/gold/whatever years before token, since vanila...

[Cuppy]

That doesn't provide any Boost to your skills. Is just colors.

Using Tokens, to get the gold, to get a mount with Bank/Transmog NPCs on it, or a super expensive priced mount (A price set by Blizzard) to impress everyone....that is P2W. Money for Visual advantage.

Mounts, transmog and other Visual advantages, specially super rare mounts, transmog etc. Is an advantage to win vs other players. Is P2W.

Game 1 color changing doesnt do shit, so it is not p2w.
Game 2 color changing doesnt do shit, so its clearly pay to win.

Ok boss.

[Lolites]

Ok so sure. You can buy gold with real money.
With this gold:
You can buy gear off the AH.
You can buy boosts in dungeons and raids to get gear.
With this gold you'll be geared af. Granted you'll need to lay down some serious cash. A boost of Mythic Nathria is going for several million etc and one token at 20 euros is 200k ish?

At the end of this you'll have a very geared pixel.
With this pixel you'll go and think you'll now get into all the best groups, guilds etc. But you won't. Because you haven't a clue of what to do. So..if P2W is being a guildless ubergeared wacko everyone knows bought his gear and wouldn't think twice about recruiting this person to actually play the game then..yeah..I guess WoW is P2W and has been so wince Vanilla.

this, if wow is p2w now it is so since vanila, token changed nothing, its pretty much new payment method...

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Game 1 color changing doesnt do shit, so it is not p2w.
Game 2 color changing doesnt do shit, so its clearly pay to win.

Ok boss.

he is quite delusional and hypocritical, but hey, some people need reasont to shit on wow and if they dont have nay they have to make some

[baskev]

Sorry if this is discussed anywhere else, could not find any Thread related to this.
Also Sorry for my English, it´s not my 1st Language

So I thought about my discussion following "New World" and the monetising System they want to add, by selling boosts and other convenient Items in addition to cosmetic Stuff. Most people claimed this would be p2w and I have to think about WoW in it´s current state and thinks you could buy by real Life Money.

You can buy all these Mounts and other shiny stuff from the Ingame store, and that´s total OK for me, because you don´t push your Player power with these items.
BUT, you can buy Character boosts. This is a bit tricky for me, because you buy some sort of Player power, but it doesn´t affect the Endgame, it´s just a Time Safe for these people, but it´s definitely something which is discussable.
But the most annoying thing is definitely the WoW Token itself. You can buy WoW Gold with real Money and can use it to buy BoE Items, which is definitely an increase in Player Power, and so some kind of Pay to Win. And you can buy boosts for M+, Raids, PvP with these Gold. This is not only an increase in Player Power, it´s the pure definition for Pay to win! "You want this? Just pay me X Gold and you get it."

I think WoW is going a dramatic way towards p2w, and this is not only Blizzards fault.
Blizz did the Mistake in the first, to make it possible by adding the Token, just because they wanted to address illegal gold selling.
The Only thing I can imagine at this point to address this, is to forbid boosts for Gold and remove boe items (in Raid quality) from the Game.

What do you guys think? Is WoW really pay to win nowadays or am I just over interpreting something in this?

Thanks for Reading

No, Pay 2 win would mean you pay and you win. Leveling is not hard or even a that much of a chore anymore.
WoW token is not pay 2 win either. Because you can use the token to pay for playing the game.

And boost ( the big ones) are to expensive to do with just tokens . And the small ones you can farm yourselfs. doing a couple alts worth of the daily callings and you can net a lot of gold. think the lowest i get is around 1,5k.

And pay to win would mean in my eyes/opinion. That paying gets you a advantage that other people do not have/can not get.