The problem with alliance bias.

[loras]

That's the ironic thing in this, "World of Warcraft" is a game where evil *always* loses (Simply because if they win, it's "Game over"), they insist on playing the bad guys (Whether they acknowledge it or not), and then when the inevitable happens (The good guys win, and yeah, in faction wars that means the Alliance), they start kicking, screaming, and crying "BIAS!", and here we are in this thread...

This, people need to own up to their choices.
Especially ones made so freely as in a videogame.

[geco]

That's the ironic thing in this, "World of Warcraft" is a game where evil *always* loses (Simply because if they win, it's "Game over"), they insist on playing the bad guys (Whether they acknowledge it or not), and then when the inevitable happens (The good guys win, and yeah, in faction wars that means the Alliance), they start kicking, screaming, and crying "BIAS!", and here we are in this thread...

Well winning is "relative".
The most correct thing is to say that the bad guys Lose. I don't think the Alliance feels very "Victorious". At least that 25% Kaldorei.

Yep, the Devs made the mistake of allowing these bullies to live out their fantasies in Cata with Garrosh and after that they demand it to be a thing all the time, so they brought Sylvanas and when the cries get loud again, Talanji will go on a killing spree.

The mistake was going back to the evil Horde and never writing a Gray Conflict. As it should be.

To give an Idea BFA should have been war only in the Mines of Azzerrita and the "Grand finale" should be that they reach an agreement or that they destroy the Azerite.
A conflict without a bad in itself.

But hey here we have the Story of the Bad Horde and the Idiots Alliance. Slowly those who seek Honor from the Horde leave the game and those who seek Justice or to be the good guys in the Alliance leave the Game.

[Shadowtwili]

It's different players, for the most part. There has always been a portion of the Horde fanbase that preferred them as the antagonists of Warcraft 1/2 as opposed to the protagonists of Warcraft 3.

Fair enough, I guess. It's the same how the Alliance is spread over multiple kinds of players too.

This Didn’t happen before the shattering garrosh hadn’t launched any attacks on the alliance he was dealing with internal problems in the horde. It was only the allaince heating g up the war pre shattering Attacking the barrens and the cows of all people.

With both factions recovering from war, the Alliance and Horde attempt to resume their tentative peace declared by their respective faction's peace treaty. Yet Garrosh Hellscream's aggression against the Alliance has not abated. While the Horde was recalling its forces back to Orgrimmar, Garrosh's forces waylayed an Alliance carrier wrecked at sea. He disposed of most of its crew, reasoning that it was in Horde waters, though a distressed Cairne Bloodhoof urged him to relent. Garrosh then gave the survivors supplies and rations, informing them that they had witnessed both the Horde's might and the Horde's mercy.

This was when the Horde and Alliance were pulling their forces back from Northrend, mind you.

and after helping Jaina with ethnic purge or Genn with his warcrimes alliance players get to was their hands with what?
mind you, Genn wasnt punished at all, and Jainas punishment was being told "bad mage" by Varian and thats it... so yeah, just removing leader is laughable, but still WAY MORE than what alliance punishment usualy is...

Dalaran was a neutral nation at that point in time, mind you, so not sure why you'd blame the Alliance for that? Yes, Jaina was a former Alliance leader, and certainly symphatised with the Alliance, but that doesn't make it an Alliance nation.

Also, Genn Greymane and Jaina Proudmoore can't be punished by anyone in the Grand Alliance. Both are Anduin's equals and sovereigns of their own (refugee) nations, punishing Genn or Jaina would make place Anduin above them, and thus change the nature of the Alliance. People keep forgetting that the Alliance is an alliance, not a empire, not a military dictatorship, an alliance. Anduin does not outrank Genn, Jaina, Tyrande, Velen, Turalyon or whoever, all he could do was strip them off their rank in the Alliance military, but since they have none, that would be kinda hard.

you're going to have to blame Blizzard for appealing for the Second War Horde fans who wanted that way when the current Horde was based on Warcraft 3 Horde, such as when the entire point of Warcraft 3 is to push the new Horde away from the warmongering and wanton bloodshed of the Old Horde

but yes, the Horde was never meant to be evil as seen before Cataclysm save for the outliers (Forsaken and Blood Elves)

Yeah, it's horrible how they keep making the Horde Chaotic Evuuuuuul and the Alliance Lawful Stupiiiiid. Gimme shades of grey, darnit!

I still can't believe they rebuilt Orgrimmar arguably worse than the original. I would never set foot there if they'd update Silvermoon or make Suramar a player city. Unfortunately, they've packed everything into Orgrimmar so it's unavoidable, but I've always hated the orc aesthetic. Gentrify the Horde. :P

I was disappointed Alliance never got Gilneas in game too. I understand the point of funneling everyone into one city, but I miss when they all had the same amenities so it was player choice.

Orgrimmar is a hot mess that even now is still under construction. Just finish the damn city.

While at it, update Thunder Bluff, Ironforge, Exodar and Quel'thalas (by bringing them into the Azeroth world space, don't care if they have to change them abit them!)

Give the Horde Highmountain, Suramar and Alterac, while the Alliance should get Mechagon, Gnomeregan and Gilneas. Or atleast make the Allied Race "cities" accesible for everyone.

let's be clear, blizz favor neither alliance nor horde, they favor massively humans since years, and not even interesting warhammer style humans, just shiny bright mary sue humans who never mistake

Not even that, Blizzard outright admitted they prefer "writing" the "Horde" (meaning the orcs and forsaken), and for the Alliance they just default to humans because it's "easier to write".

[mysticx]

Well winning is "relative".
The most correct thing is to say that the bad guys Lose. I don't think the Alliance feels very "Victorious". At least that 25% Kaldorei.

My main is a Night elf, so i know what you mean, i meant "The good guys win" in the general sense, against (obviously) evil player faction or NPC baddies, i also forgot to add a bit about "When the Horde wins, the Alliance is doomed (They're not going to stop until they conquered all of Azeroth), when the Alliance wins, the Horde gets a slap on the wrist (and keep almost everything they conquered), which outcome would be better for continuing the story?"

[SoundOfGuns]

Naah Horde need to go back to the old days, when they where the "evil" choice and that was accepted and even a big part of why some people picked them.

I don't think that is the issue, tho. The Horde being the more evil side is fine and well, but at some point it gets very tedious when every stupid shit and every plot device is just "lol horde bad", when its at a point in which those actions are so incredibly stupid that nobody in the right mind would accept that or go with it, even when they were the most alliance-hating, children butchering, village pilliging asshole to ever be conceived. Paint my side as evil; Sure, go ahead... but stop trying to make us all look like comic book villians with an IQ of 12 because your writers are too mentally handicapped to write something better.

[Nynax]

Counter there is horde bias. lets go point by point.

better cities:
you still have: silvermoon, lorderaon is blight but undead can live there after its cleaned, ogrimmar, thunder bluff, dezalor, suramar, high mountain, goblin city.
Alliance has: exodar, iron forge, stormwind, boralus and mechagon.

So number wise you win. But lets look at the qaulity. I think you mean looks, functionality etc. Both exodar and silvermoon cross eachother out in both regards. Would give silvermoon being more pretty award. But i not.

Oh man, Daz and Suramar are the oldest two cities in all of Azeroth. Their culture, size, and splendor totally outstrips Orgimmar. I'd say only Silvermoon comes close. All Horde factions now, haha. Everything else is basically brand spankin New. Undercity, Thunder Bluff, Orgimmar all founded after WC3.

Exodar is old but newest to Azeroth. Mechagon is probably the oldest of the "young" races, while Iron forge, Stormwind, and Boralus have a similar amount of history...

But only Daz and Suramar existed before Great Sundering.

[Raisei]

That's the ironic thing in this, "World of Warcraft" is a game where evil *always* loses (Simply because if they win, it's "Game over"), they insist on playing the bad guys (Whether they acknowledge it or not), and then when the inevitable happens (The good guys win, and yeah, in faction wars that means the Alliance), they start kicking, screaming, and crying "BIAS!", and here we are in this thread...

Indeed. All the evil enemies we met, we destroyed. The Lich King and the Scourge, dead (well, more), the Legion, destroyed, the Old Gods done for. Yet for some reason the Horde players feel that they should be winning when they do the same things.
It's probably not surprising, considering Blizzard has pampered them like no tomorrow with endless forgiveness and one scapegoat after the next. By this point, the only reason the Horde still exists, is because it is a player faction. There is no in-game justification for it.

[Lolites]

Dalaran was a neutral nation at that point in time, mind you, so not sure why you'd blame the Alliance for that? Yes, Jaina was a former Alliance leader, and certainly symphatised with the Alliance, but that doesn't make it an Alliance nation.

Also, Genn Greymane and Jaina Proudmoore can't be punished by anyone in the Grand Alliance. Both are Anduin's equals and sovereigns of their own (refugee) nations, punishing Genn or Jaina would make place Anduin above them, and thus change the nature of the Alliance. People keep forgetting that the Alliance is an alliance, not a empire, not a military dictatorship, an alliance. Anduin does not outrank Genn, Jaina, Tyrande, Velen, Turalyon or whoever, all he could do was strip them off their rank in the Alliance military, but since they have none, that would be kinda hard.

if you had the oportunity to go through the q line it was alliance soldiers under command of Jaina and Vereesa killing Sunreavers, so yeah, that one is on alliance... as for neutrality, Dalaran is neutral but Jaina never was, she was leader of alliance town and she used NEUTRAL kirin tor resources to help alliance with divine bell, hence breaking neutrality of Dalaran (and again no punishment from Kirin Tor for this, its much less severe, but still oversteping her place) and now she is lord admiral of kul tiras, so even higher position in alliance...

as for Genn not being able to get punished... well... its true Anduin is his equal as king of SW, BUT he is superior to him as high-king of alliance, so supreme leader of alliance forces, and as such, he ORDERED Genn not to engage in Stormheim (Genn said so himself) yet he did attack, and not as king of Gilneas, bcs he didnt only order Gilneans to attack, he ordered ALLIANCE soldiers, put into his command by Anduin, to do so, hence missusing his power, breaking the orders from his commander and breaking the armistice, which is in fact war crime... someone in lower rank should be executed for that, ofc i dont expect Genn to be executed as he is king, but he should definitely get punished, yet he wasnt even scolded...

[Rendark]

Indeed. All the evil enemies we met, we destroyed. The Lich King and the Scourge, dead (well, more), the Legion, destroyed, the Old Gods done for. Yet for some reason the Horde players feel that they should be winning when they do the same things.
It's probably not surprising, considering Blizzard has pampered them like no tomorrow with endless forgiveness and one scapegoat after the next. By this point, the only reason the Horde still exists, is because it is a player faction. There is no in-game justification for it.

The justification for it is bad writing.

[Super Dickmann]

if you had the oportunity to go through the q line it was alliance soldiers under command of Jaina and Vereesa killing Sunreavers, so yeah, that one is on alliance... as for neutrality, Dalaran is neutral but Jaina never was, she was leader of alliance town and she used NEUTRAL kirin tor resources to help alliance with divine bell, hence breaking neutrality of Dalaran (and again no punishment from Kirin Tor for this, its much less severe, but still oversteping her place) and now she is lord admiral of kul tiras, so even higher position in alliance....

This is partially true, but incomplete. The Kirin Tor (and Sha'tar) already broke their neutrality when they sent troops to help Theramore in the first place, Theramore being the staging ground for all Alliance war activity on Barrens front in Cataclysm, from Camp Meme to the Gates of Mulgore to Honor's Stand. These events still take place in Tides of War, but every character looks to have suffered a concussion so their consequences play a role in-story but not how they came to pass as that would unravel the entire pity party centering around Jaina and eliminate the pathos Golden's wringing out of Theramore getting destroyed.

[geco]

My main is a Night elf, so i know what you mean, i meant "The good guys win" in the general sense, against (obviously) evil player faction or NPC baddies, i also forgot to add a bit about "When the Horde wins, the Alliance is doomed (They're not going to stop until they conquered all of Azeroth), when the Alliance wins, the Horde gets a slap on the wrist (and keep almost everything they conquered), which outcome would be better for continuing the story?"

But you don't win.
This is something that many do not realize. But your mission As Kaldorei is to defend Darnsus from attacks from within and without. It's what it tells you when you start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKb98GA-Z98

The Kaldiorei lost.

The goal of the Alliance is to defend its members. The Alliance lost.

In the Garrosh War the Alliance won because they managed to defend their cities. But not here.

as for Genn not being able to get punished... well... its true Anduin is his equal as king of SW, BUT he is superior to him as high-king of alliance, so supreme leader of alliance forces, and as such, he ORDERED Genn not to engage in Stormheim (Genn said so himself) yet he did attack, and not as king of Gilneas, bcs he didnt only order Gilneans to attack, he ordered ALLIANCE soldiers, put into his command by Anduin, to do so, hence missusing his power, breaking the orders from his commander and breaking the armistice, which is in fact war crime... someone in lower rank should be executed for that, ofc i dont expect Genn to be executed as he is king, but he should definitely get punished, yet he wasnt even scolded...

A title that was not earned. He does not deserve and that they did not tell us why they have it.

[Lolites]

This is partially true, but incomplete. The Kirin Tor (and Sha'tar) already broke their neutrality when they sent troops to help Theramore in the first place, Theramore being the staging ground for all Alliance war activity on Barrens front in Cataclysm, from Camp Meme to the Gates of Taurajo to Honor's Stand. These events still take place in Tides of War, but every character looks to have suffered a concussion so their consequences play a role in-story but not how they came to pass as that would unravel the entire pity party centering around Jaina and eliminate the pathos Golden's wringing out of Theramore getting destroyed.

well yeah, that too... for someone being "neutral" Jaina used kirin tor to help alliance quite a lot

[Super Dickmann]

The Kaldiorei lost.

The goal of the Alliance is to defend its members. The Alliance lost.

In the Garrosh War the Alliance won because they managed to defend their cities. But not here.

That is the duality of the pure good vs. pure evil setup where the stakes are the world. @mysticx is quite right that the Horde must lose these narratives because their goal, i.e eliminating the other faction, can't happen because it's a two-faction game. But the same straitjacket that has bits like for example everything surrounding Theramore in Cataclysm fall off a cliff to facilitate Jaina's pity party also ties the Alliance's hands. The only group that would both win the war against an enemy that wants to wipe them out and not wipe it out themselves consists of perfect saints and saints can neither take action against a beaten enemy nor actually feel joy in a victory because war and battle of any kind (in this war game) is wrong. They will always win, but their win will be hollow. As the Horde has its characters and institutions pruned to the current shambles, so too will the Aliance ultimately near the absolute null that is its current state where every character is interchangeable and even the victims of genocide decide that hurting anyone except the scapegoat lady would be tragic.

This is an issue easily solved by comitting to the Vanilla to Cataclysm angle of making both factions proactive and likewise never doing a war where the stakes are too high to achieve. But Blizzard doesn't want to do this and most of the people complaining about it don't want it either - the Alliance and its themes and characters both being too pure for this sinful world and taking center stage in all narratives that don't concern the factions and also eliminating their enemy is unattainable for the same mechanical reasons that Grazrug will never see these wishlist threads end anywhere except the bin.

[Raisei]

Well winning is "relative".
The most correct thing is to say that the bad guys Lose. I don't think the Alliance feels very "Victorious". At least that 25% Kaldorei.

True. It doesn't feel like a win, because we were mainly extras on the set. The nameless and faceless guys that get killed by the true heroes and villains of the story. BFA felt like a Horde story that had a little bit of Alliance pushed in at the last minute because they had to appease us. Everything happened because of Horde protagonists and it was essentially a battle for the Horde's soul that (as usual) cost many Alliance lives.

The mistake was going back to the evil Horde and never writing a Gray Conflict. As it should be.

I think the problem is that a Grey Conflict doesn't work with the actors in play. A gray conflict is in my eyes one that is in big parts political and how would that even work with the Horde on one side? Orcs are not political actors, they don't negotiate, they take what they want and if you oppose them in that, you get killed. End of negotiations. There is no political story to tell with that. Thrall being the one exception, because he was raised by humans.

Political intrigues work in SWTOR between Empire and Rebublic, because the Empire is cunning, the Horde simply isn't.

To give an Idea BFA should have been war only in the Mines of Azzerrita and the "Grand finale" should be that they reach an agreement or that they destroy the Azerite.
A conflict without a bad in itself.

Not a bad idea, but as I said above, it's not the story the characters we have can tell. A Horde with Sylvanas at the helm could never be anything but bad, because she is, and the game doesn't take the time to flesh out the rest of the cast to disagree with her more. They follow her by default, because everything else would require time to deal with.
However my biggest issue with BFA is not even the plot itself. It's that the plot that was told is pointless. No matter how many times Jaina and Thrall and Saurfang talk about "breaking the cycle" I am not buying it. The Horde will attack the Alliance again very soon. There is not even any doubt about that. Otherwise they would loose all those guys that need their War in Warcraft.
And as before, that war will end in a pointless draw and no one will be satisfied.

[geco]

That is the duality of the pure good vs. pure evil setup where the stakes are the world. @mysticx is quite right that the Horde must lose these narratives because their goal, i.e eliminating the other faction, can't happen because it's a two-faction game. But the same straitjacket that has bits like for example everything surrounding Theramore in Cataclysm fall off a cliff to facilitate Jaina's pity party also ties the Alliance's hands. The only group that would both win the war against an enemy that wants to wipe them out and not do it consists of perfect saints and saints can neither take action against a beaten enemy nor actually feel joy in a victory because war and battle of any kind (in this war game) is wrong. They will always win, but their win will be hollow. As the Horde has its characters and institutions pruned to the current shambles, so too will the Aliance ultimately near the absolute null that is its current state where every character is interchangeable and even the victims of genocide decide that hurting anyone except the scapegoat lady would be tragic.

This is an issue easily solved by comitting to the Vanilla to Cataclysm angle of making both factions proactive and likewise never doing a war where the stakes are too high to achieve. But Blizzard doesn't want to do this and most of the people complaining about it don't want it either - the Alliance and its themes and characters both being too pure for this sinful world and taking center stage in all narratives that don't concern the factions and also eliminating their enemy is unattainable for the same mechanical reasons that Grazrug will never see these wishlist threads end anywhere except the bin.

But then they didn't win.
Your objective is to defend an Egg. The Egg was broken you lost.
So it is not an "empty victory". It is not a victory.

So you are left with two options:
Take revenge and kill those who destroyed your egg.
Get another Egg.

We don't go either way so we still keep losing.

Then we can think deeply that it is silly to get another Egg when it is going to be broken again. But that's a topic for another day.

it's like a game of Dota. Where the enemy goes 20/0. But he doesn't kill you and you can't surrender either. You already lost, you know you lost, you just need to get the card that says "DEFEAT".


Editt:

I think the problem is that a Grey Conflict doesn't work with the actors in play. A gray conflict is in my eyes one that is in big parts political and how would that even work with the Horde on one side? Orcs are not political actors, they don't negotiate, they take what they want and if you oppose them in that, you get killed. End of negotiations. There is no political story to tell with that. Thrall being the one exception, because he was raised by humans.

Political intrigues work in SWTOR between Empire and Rebublic, because the Empire is cunning, the Horde simply isn't.

The Griss Conflict is easy:
Orc -Orc needs tree. Or Orc is going to die. Orc want Tree. Orc Smash
Elf -You are not going to touch my horrible orc trees.
Fight

Hero -Or wait you can trade wood for metal and everyone happy.
Orc -Orc have tree orc Hapy.
Elf -Works

Not a bad idea, but as I said above, it's not the story the characters we have can tell. A Horde with Sylvanas at the helm could never be anything but bad, because she is, and the game doesn't take the time to flesh out the rest of the cast to disagree with her more. They follow her by default, because everything else would require time to deal with.
However my biggest issue with BFA is not even the plot itself. It's that the plot that was told is pointless. No matter how many times Jaina and Thrall and Saurfang talk about "breaking the cycle" I am not buying it. The Horde will attack the Alliance again very soon. There is not even any doubt about that. Otherwise they would loose all those guys that need their War in Warcraft.
And as before, that war will end in a pointless draw and no one will be satisfied.

Sylvanas was not bad. Up to BFA. Sylvanas hair for the greater good.
That this Undead and her idea of the "greater good" is different from ours is another issue.

But if Sylvanas fights for what is best for her people, she is not bad and a Griss conflict can be made.

An Evil vs. Good Conflict is when one side fights on the basis of causing damage and death. As long as both sides fight for "what is best for her people" it is a Gray conflict.

[Super Dickmann]

But then they didn't win.
Your objective is to defend an Egg. The Egg was broken you lost.
So it is not an "empty victory". It is not a victory.

So you are left with two options:
Take revenge and kill those who destroyed your egg.
Get another Egg.

We don't go either way so we still keep losing.

Then we can think deeply that it is silly to get another Egg when it is going to be broken again. But that's a topic for another day.

it's like a game of Dota. Where the enemy goes 20/0. But he doesn't kill you and you can't surrender either. You already lost, you know you lost, you just need to get the card that says "DEFEAT".

You mistake the goal the narrative has in store for you. The goal of a saint and victim is not to save their stuff, it's to suffer nobly and then 'heal' the enemy. You can't hurt the enemy because you have no base motives towards anyone, they're not even really your enemy, it's only the Scapegoat who hurt you, everyone else is blameless. The catch with the Alliance is that within it, the role of the saint and victim are split between different races - Night Elves take the role of being victim so as to extract pathos that is not given to any Horde race at any stage, whereas humans take the role of saints and redeemers, impeded only by their own sheer morality. See Anduin and Jaina sending a suicide army at Dazar'alor yet deciding not to actually win the war because the very concept of pushing an advantage would somehow make them morally equivalent to Sylvanas.

The reason that the Horde can only be motivated by pure evil and ergo always lose is because the Alliance is pure good and so could never have what they do give anyone a reason to oppose it, but the flip side of being such flawless saviors is they also can't enjoy any of the reprisal they're involved in and their victory must be an abstract one of showing the other side the error of their ways. BFA Anduin could never be opposed by anyone except BFA Sylvanas but BFA Anduin is the reason the only faction war narrative that can be done is through BFA Sylvanas.

[geco]

You mistake the goal the narrative has in store for you. The goal of a saint and victim is not to save their stuff, it's to suffer nobly and then 'heal' the enemy. You can't hurt the enemy because you have no base motives towards anyone, they're not even really your enemy, it's only the Scapegoat who hurt you, everyone else is blameless. The catch with the Alliance is that within it, the role of the saint and victim are split between different races - Night Elves take the role of being victim so as to extract pathos that is not given to any Horde race at any stage, whereas humans take the role of saints and redeemers, impeded only by their own sheer morality. See Anduin and Jaina sending a suicide army at Dazar'alor yet deciding not to actually win the war because the very concept of pushing an advantage would somehow make them morally equivalent to Sylvanas.

The reason that the Horde can only be motivated by pure evil and ergo always lose is because the Alliance is pure good and so could never have what they do give anyone a reason to oppose it, but the flip side of being such flawless saviors is they also can't enjoy any of the reprisal they're involved in and their victory must be an abstract one of showing the other side the error of their ways. BFA Anduin could never be opposed by anyone except BFA Sylvanas but BFA Anduin is the reason the only faction war narrative that can be done is through BFA Sylvanas.

XD
We hope they make the start of the playable races so that they tell you that.
But hey, it's like in the Dota game in the middle they tell you that your objective is not to win. It is that the enemy reaches Full-Build before the end.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This was when the Horde and Alliance were pulling their forces back from Northrend, mind you.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen this before where is it from?

Also if it was on the way back from northrend garrosh wouldn’t have been war chief yet and capturing enemy ships in your space would be very much a Cold War act let alone giving some of the men supply’s and sending them home.

making my previous post still correct in that it wasn’t garrosh declaring war or heating it up to a hot war.

[Super Dickmann]

XD
We hope they make the start of the playable races so that they tell you that.
But hey, it's like in the Dota game in the middle they tell you that your objective is not to win. It is that the enemy reaches Full-Build before the end.

The Night Elf role in life is to take hits so that humans can teach orcs and undead about love and peace from a position of superiority. Your previous post about a grey conflict being the solution is entirely true, but you can see how it's opposed, giving up sainthood is tough, but necessary.

The solution goes through eliminating the Alliance's sainthood and turning them back into the political actors they were for virtually all of Vanilla to Cataclysm and have been intermittently in parts of even Mists and as far as Legion. A political actor can be motivated by revenge, material gain or cultural superiority/grievance and be opposed by those who have contrary views on these things, a saint can't be opposed by anything except the devil.

[Raisei]

This is partially true, but incomplete. The Kirin Tor (and Sha'tar) already broke their neutrality when they sent troops to help Theramore in the first place, Theramore being the staging ground for all Alliance war activity on Barrens front in Cataclysm, from Camp Meme to the Gates of Mulgore to Honor's Stand. These events still take place in Tides of War, but every character looks to have suffered a concussion so their consequences play a role in-story but not how they came to pass as that would unravel the entire pity party centering around Jaina and eliminate the pathos Golden's wringing out of Theramore getting destroyed.

Well, one can stay neutral and still oppose the madman that massacres Nightelves, nukes cities and wants to have Pandaria overrun with the Sha for his own personal amusement. Just because Jaina's interests are alligned with the Alliance's, doesn't necessarily mean she broke her neutrality. Dalaran has acted in most big events on the side of the people of Azeroth. Which is not Garrosh's side, unless we only count orcs as people. So I really don't see the big problem. Sure, the Horde was a bit late in realizing who their boss really was, but that is becoming a running theme. It doesn't make Garrosh any less evil or any less of a global threat.

It's what I meant above. Just because the Big Evil of an expansion happens to be one of the player factions should not mean that it gets special treatment. You can't blame neutral people for opposing clear threats to the entire planet.
I mean, did Dalaran broke it's neutrality because they attacked the Prince of Lordaeron in Northrend? Of course not.