Question: Did the Shen'dralar take back Dire Maul West wing?

[Beloren]

If the Highborne were to reintroduce a magic police into Night Elf society, the best example of this is the Moon Guard. The Moon Guard have been isolated entirely near Suramar, and mostly wiped out since Legion. The Moon Guard could teach others, like the Shen'dralar Highborne, as they've been trustworthy so far. The Moon Guard in the novels were a bit like police (my memory says they used handcuffs which were arcane, implied as either mage or priesthood magic). In WoW the Moon Guard doesn't seem to have any kind of tie to Elune, or any kind of Warden magic, but it's not like Maiev is going to trust Mordent and Co. enough to train them. If Wardens were going to be a group in the Night Elves, it would be just normal Wardens trained by Maiev and her Sisters of people she trusts. Maybe in a dire enough situation, Maiev could be persuaded by Jarod to extend or allow teaching to go out to more people (and other races, as would be like Jarod, likely to save Azeroth, as he does). But on her own, I don't think Maiev teaches the Shen'dralar Highborne. I think it's a bit more likely the Moon Guard would extend teachings to the Shen'dralar.

It's interesting, Moon Guard would be the ideal candidates, I mean, Farondis Highborne could be involved in that too, given their attitude to magical abuse also.

It's also likely that Moon guard and Wardens worked towards the same goals on the broken isles between WC3 and Legion, totally independent, given the anti-magic nature of the wardens, but I wouldn't be surprised if both were aware of each other, and watched each other, but also secretly helped each other when taking down dangerous foes.

Alas, we are speculating, and interesting as it might be, it is also fair certainty that blizzard won't develop these things as I mentioned to Ravenmoon. But that shouldn't discourage interesting speculation - and I won't be one of the people who do

[ravenmoon]

It's interesting, Moon Guard would be the ideal candidates, I mean, Farondis Highborne could be involved in that too, given their attitude to magical abuse also.

It's also likely that Moon guard and Wardens worked towards the same goals on the broken isles between WC3 and Legion, totally independent, given the anti-magic nature of the wardens, but I wouldn't be surprised if both were aware of each other, and watched each other, but also secretly helped each other when taking down dangerous foes.

Alas, we are speculating, and interesting as it might be, it is also fair certainty that blizzard won't develop these things as I mentioned to Ravenmoon. But that shouldn't discourage interesting speculation - and I won't be one of the people who do

Oh but you do when it isn't something you like, because you are always opposing my interesting speculation. But at least you are not as bad as those who stupidly call my quite obvious speculation as head canon - as if they didn't realise that I was speculating, which is makes them not observant at all or intentionally trying to deceive through defamation

- - - Updated - - -

Night Elves and Void Elves have their arcs which are different from the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei.
From BFA, we see Night Elves and Void Elves working together and they work together through totally different ways and means from their Horde counterparts.

Blood Elves and Nightborne work on the Horde, because they are so alike. They are also deep-rooted Arcane-focused Elves. This is a clear distinction between the Horde and alliance Elves. Silvermoon, especially, doesn't work for the Alliance Elves because it's theme, vibe and core doesn't match them. It's a city full of Arcane and Holy Light users, which are two core themes of standard Blood Elf society, through their Magisters and Blood Knights. (High Elves aren't playable and will likely never be playable. Additional High Elf features for Void Elves are the best you can hope for.) You can try and say "oh nightborne live in a night based society." That doesn't make a different when the reality is that both their society and Silvermoon's are heavily steeped into Arcane knowledge, in many forms. Telemancy in Suramar, Blood and Fire Magical practices in Silvermoon is just one example.

Night Elves and Void Elves have different priorities and different values, but it's those differences that can also pull them together. They have the potential to do some great things. Rebuild Eldre'Thalas, having it shared between Highborne and Ren'dorei. Highborne teach the Ren'dorei more about scrying magic and the Ren'dorei teach the Highborne more about the Void. Continue the cooperation between the two, like we saw in BFA between the Night Elf Sentinels and Void Elf Void-users.

And attention won't shift, because the Horde Elves are not core races to the Horde lore anyway. Blizzard put them in where it makes sense (Zin-Azshari, Suramar, Northrend (Quel'Delar).) You'll notice throughout the whole thing of BFA and the internal conflict within the Horde, the Blood Elves and Nightborne only make their statements known - when it's close to Sylvanas leaving the Horde and in the one patch, where we see them in decent form, post-7.1. Aside from that, the BFA narrative on the Horde was a Troll, Orc and Undead focus. So stop with those lies with, "Oh the blood elves and nightborne are not the true identity of the Horde." That's rubbish and it's clear you know nothing of the Horde. Those who write the Horde storylines have a better understanding of when to use certain races. That's why using Blood Elves and Nightborne in 8.2 was the right call. Alliance writers only know what they're doing when it comes to Human storylines.

Horde storylines for the Elves shouldn't suffer to buff the other side up. For one, Blood Elf fans are still waiting for an updated Quel'Thalas and rebuilt Silvermoon. This needs to happen regardless of what the other Elves have or don't have and it needs to be for the Horde. Also, two different teams write for both factions and the Horde writers won't get told, "look, in order for a few night elf fans to feel better, we need to make both blood elves and nightborne look really stupid, weak and after that...pretend they don't exist." Let's be serious for a moment. One doesn't need to be lesser than the other, for the one suffering to be good. Night Elves and Void Elves can be extremely good, especially when they work together, because them working together with all their differences are exactly the sorts of reasons they should be working together, in contrast to the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei, who work together because they are very alike in outlooks.
So, lets stop getting excited about prospects of Blood Elves and Nightborne being pushed away and being made to pretend they don't exist. It won't happen. Blizzard loves the Blood Elves, especially them being on the Horde - they won't be forgotten...especially when it comes to the demand for updating Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon, for Horde players only.

What are you on about dude?

just because blood elves and Nightborne are deep rooted arcane focused elves, doesn't mean high elves and night elven Highborne are not. The clear distinction of the blood elves is that they joined the horde betraying their original alignment. Nightbonre are the way they are because they are night elves don't you forget it. Should amani become playable on the horde, it doens't them from being Zandalari derived, nor does it suddenly mean their loa, juju or tribal focus is some how alliance exclusive.

What are you on about. Every race has their focuses, and they aren't mutually exclusive. That's not how wow was designed.. stop trying to force the horde elves into the rightful owners of elven arcane ability when the lore is so very clear on the night elves, high elves and void elves magical acumen int hat area.

You know blood elves are focused on arcane, light and ranged fire power, but because tha'ts the case, you want to say humans, and night elves, or void elves or even nightborne shouldn't have it. Is arcane exclusive to the blood elves?

Stop this rubbish. You know blizzard don't split their races into one main thing only, even when one aspect is highlighted for a period of time. There is enough lore to show you all there is to the race. Some races only haveo ne, some have several. orcs have several, but Nightborne only have one. Just because nightborne have one focus, doens't mean that blodo elves, or any alliance elves don't have that .

[Tanaria]

What are you on about dude?

just because blood elves and Nightborne are deep rooted arcane focused elves, doesn't mean high elves and night elven Highborne are not. The clear distinction of the blood elves is that they joined the horde betraying their original alignment. Nightbonre are the way they are because they are night elves don't you forget it. Should amani become playable on the horde, it doens't them from being Zandalari derived, nor does it suddenly mean their loa, juju or tribal focus is some how alliance exclusive.

What are you on about. Every race has their focuses, and they aren't mutually exclusive. That's not how wow was designed.. stop trying to force the horde elves into the rightful owners of elven arcane ability when the lore is so very clear on the night elves, high elves and void elves magical acumen int hat area.

You know blood elves are focused on arcane, light and ranged fire power, but because tha'ts the case, you want to say humans, and night elves, or void elves or even nightborne shouldn't have it. Is arcane exclusive to the blood elves?

Stop this rubbish. You know blizzard don't split their races into one main thing only, even when one aspect is highlighted for a period of time. There is enough lore to show you all there is to the race. Some races only haveo ne, some have several. orcs have several, but Nightborne only have one. Just because nightborne have one focus, doens't mean that blodo elves, or any alliance elves don't have that .

It's not me that is seemingly aiming to cause this distinction between the 4 groups of playable Elves. It's blizzard themselves.

They might have wrote the old lore, but their are key areas what they like and what they want to focus on. Ever since the War of Thorns and into Battle for Azeroth and even in the Shadowlands novel (written by a night elf fan, even if I completely disagree with her political stance), we can see a shift happening within the Night Elves and it's seemingly a drive to push the main sectors to the forefront. Them being the Priestesses, Druids, Sentinels and Wardens.

When Thrall, Calia and Baine went to Hyjal, Mordent Evenshade was not part of the Night Elven leadership roster. That went to Tyrande, Maiev, Malfurion and Shandris.

It seems very telling on where they want to take the Alliance Night Elves and their is a big distinction between them and their Shal'dorei counterparts.

For Void Elves, their is a clear distinction between them and their Sin'dorei counterparts.
And the Blood Elves never betrayed their original alignments. Their original alignments betrayed them, through Garithos and then through Darnassus and Ironforge.

[Thage]

No, the opposite - they've canonically abandoned Dire Maul:

This. Eldre'thalas is considered a lost cause, and the night elves have apparently begun resettling Nordrassil as their new (old?) capital. While I'd be interested to see what they could do with Eldre'thalas (especially since it would mean translating the dungeon map into the open world, something I wish would happen with more regularity), I'm also very curious to see if they build up a new capital city around Nordrassil, even if just in the books since Blizzard looks at advancing racial capitals not called Stormwind or Orgrimmar with fear and bewilderment (except to destroy them).

[Super Dickmann]

This. Eldre'thalas is considered a lost cause, and the night elves have apparently begun resettling Nordrassil as their new (old?) capital. While I'd be interested to see what they could do with Eldre'thalas (especially since it would mean translating the dungeon map into the open world, something I wish would happen with more regularity), I'm also very curious to see if they build up a new capital city around Nordrassil, even if just in the books since Blizzard looks at advancing racial capitals not called Stormwind or Orgrimmar with fear and bewilderment (except to destroy them).

Updating Nordrassil or setting some quests there would go a long way to communicate what's going on in a way people can actually play through instead of just a read blurb about. Even Orgrimmar isn't exempt from having areas that exist inaccessible. Blizzard updating the Underhold with azerite and Blight workshops complete with flags, shelves and constructions that aren't in the raid dungeon only to waste it on a quest where you bail Baine out of prison is one of the most baffling recent examples.

[Moonrage]

Updating Nordrassil would be a step in the right direction, although I do prefer Ashenvale over Nordrassil. Blizzard already updated Night Elf architecture in Legion and BFA, adding a temple of the moon, some Night elf houses and maybe some statues isn't that hard.

[ravenmoon]

It's not me that is seemingly aiming to cause this distinction between the 4 groups of playable Elves. It's blizzard themselves

.

No, it's you drawing those lines. There are distinctions, but not in the way you are trying to frame them. You are trying to frame them as "blood elves and nightborne are the ones that are good at arcane magic, therefore night elves, void elves and high elves can't be and shouldn't be or it will make them too similar"

That is a false distinction. And a lie. Blizzard gives each race a number of things they are good at, whiles certain things do stand out more in each group, they are not mutually exclusive as I've pointed out. It doesn't mean there aren't difference. But it's incorrect to frame the differences to be entirely magical focus based as if to say that's the thing that they must be mainly known for, so that others having it would make their identity meaningless. in other words, if i phrase that way , it will help ensure the alliance never gets the level of.

don't know why you feel so insecure about alliance elves being very good at arcane magic, it's been in the lore from the very start, and still is. Night elves, high elves, void elves are incredibly good at arcane magic. just because blood elves and Nightborne are in their cities doesn't remove this from them. Night elves are also great at nature magic -- blood elves would be great if they had practitioners of it, but they don't. they have practitioners of light magic which they are also very good at.

They might have wrote the old lore, but their are key areas what they like and what they want to focus on. Ever since the War of Thorns and into Battle for Azeroth and even in the Shadowlands novel (written by a night elf fan, even if I completely disagree with her political stance), we can see a shift happening within the Night Elves and it's seemingly a drive to push the main sectors to the forefront. Them being the Priestesses, Druids, Sentinels and Wardens.

What shift? you're talking out of your *** again. Druids, sentinels and wardens have always been a apart of hte night leves, showing them now is no shift. Night elves have always been great at the arcane and had a legacy of it - showing Shen'dralar, Moonguard, Farondis and Nightborne is evidence of this.

Are you going to say that because bliizzard has been showing a lot of Liadrin and the light wielding blood elf paladins that the blood elves have now shifted to light magic, therefore they're no longer good at aracne?

orh you are quite willing to talk up blood elf arcane, when a "shift" by your explanation has happened, but when it comes to the night elves, this "shift" means arcane is no longer part of the night elves.. be consistent at least. If blizzard actually ran by this, then blood elves ain't going to be arcane users either.

When Thrall, Calia and Baine went to Hyjal, Mordent Evenshade was not part of the Night Elven leadership roster. That went to Tyrande, Maiev, Malfurion and Shandris.

It seems very telling on where they want to take the Alliance Night Elves and their is a big distinction between them and their Shal'dorei counterparts.

For Void Elves, their is a clear distinction between them and their Sin'dorei counterparts.
And the Blood Elves never betrayed their original alignments. Their original alignments betrayed them, through Garithos and then through Darnassus and Ironforge.

The distinctions you are pointing out don't mean the things you conclude them to mean. This is where you are mistaken, or outright lying.

[Tanaria]

.
SNIP

Ok - so let's break this down.

When I say "distinctions" I mean, the main areas where Blizzard is putting a lot of focus. Naturally, Night Elves and Blood Elves being core races have a lot more, with them being big races in the WoW lore.

So the Alliance Night Elven primary force:
Sentinels, Druids, Priestesses and Wardens.

The Horde Blood Elven primary force:
Blood Knights, Farstriders, Magisters.

Lesser used forces from both:
Night Elven Magi, Blood Elven Warriors

Hardly used:
Blood Elven Warlocks

Never used:
Death Knights, Demon Hunters

This doesn't mean that night elf death knights and blood elf demon hunters aren't what they are, but as far as the lore goes for their respective races' factions, they just aren't truly focused on, in terms of the Alliance and Horde. It's why the Illidari as a whole have been largely forgotten since Legion. I mean, the Arathi and Darkshore Warfronts, for all their faults for implementation, did give us a good insight into the elves' respective armies.

Blood Elves still bolster a more varied array of soldiers, from Blood Knights through to Mages. Their Mages aren't anything like their High Elf counterparts, since the Blood Elves primarily focus and hem in on Blood Magic. It's why they are often referred to as "The Blood Magi." We also saw them in Nazmir during the faction assaults.

I think, your whole premise is that your just a little unhappy that the Horde carries a theme for Elven races, but not on the faction you prefer. I mean, it's alright...it's not like the Arcane isn't big with the Alliance, but a lot of it's focus tends to go to the Humans, likely because of commanding characters like Jaina Proudmoore and Khadgar. I mean, in comparison - who is Mordent Evenshade when compared to Jaina Proudmoore? When somebody says "Alliance Mage", who will they think of? Humans also have the 7th Legion group which is primarily Human led, but does have Elven and Gnome Magi members, but again - it's a Human/Stormwind-led organization.
This sort of thing has been around the Alliance for years and years. During the early years of Lordaeron, it was a Human, not a Highborne or High Elf, who was considered the most powerful and formidable Mage ever.

I've never felt insecure about the Alliance Elves being good at the Arcane...it's just Void Elves are the better of the two Alliance Elves, when it comes to using the Arcane and the Void. Void Elves are extremely skilled in both arts and have mastered created Void portals, for the exact same effect that a regular portal. The only places where these portals would not be so good would be Nazjatar and Nya'lotha. Having knowledge or theory doesn't help in practical matters. The proof of this was when the Shen'dralar were routed from their city, by the Horde. These so-called "revered Arcanists" were easily removed. Yes - the Highborne has the legacy behind it, but ever since the loss of the Well of eternity and Immol'thar, they truly haven't been great at much else.
I mean, during the Darkshore Warfront, Mordent only casts Arcane Missiles and then some "Nature Thorns" spell. Perhaps this is a sign that more Night Elf Magi are becoming more like Balance Druids?

[mickybrighteyes]

Nightborne vs Shen'dralar:

Magical knowledge and skill/expertise:
Shen'dralar win here: They've been furiously and feverishly studying the arcane for 10,000 years, even in their corrupted state, this was forte
They loved and eschewed knowledge, as is clearly evident by the quests involving them, including Shen'dralar reputation. The Nightborne on the other hand had fully functioning city so knowledge and mastery of the arcane wasn't their sole focus

I think the fuylly functional city and progress in previously unseen fields of arcane gives the edge to the Shal'dorei rather than the Shen'dralar...

the denizens of Dire Maul held magics from the breaking and spent more time infighting than.... while yes there was also strife among the Nightborne.. they still had advancements to show while the Shen'dralar seem to only show that they exist.

2. The Nightborne had chronomancy magic to focus on too, and delved into nature magic too. whereas the Shen'dralar was solely arcane magic

Chronomancy that seems derived from their knowledge and study of the arcane...

We have not seen what Eldre'thalas was in it's glory before it fell to ruins, if they were to redo it again, it would look much better. Not Suramar level, but likely close, and it would be full of extraordinary wonders

Eldrethalas and Surumar suffered similar fates... one fell into ruin and disuse as a result.

Ahead of the curve:
shen'dralar would have been ahead of the curve. Ever watched the TV series called Eureka? they'd be a bit like that but for magic, and a city instead of a town. They'd have had frontier stuff not even ready to be released let alone the existing wonders lost to the sundering would all be in the heads of these people.

3. Nightborne stagnated a lot
while they did advance in magic, it was slow, and sluggish, things took ages to update, the counter is that the Shen'dralar would not have been able to churn out the same level of things they could with the well of eternity, but their arcane theory and knowledge would have drastically improved.

I think you have these pointsd very mixed up. One group were the keepers of understood knowledge and the other is a slice of the society that knowledge existed in... One is a stagnate ruin the devolved into a covert war of infighting and outside invasion that forced everyone to abandon the place... the other had a similar issue but was able to overthrow the negative influence and retain their position


At the time of the sundering the Shendralar were cutting edge.... 5000 years later? not so much.

[ravenmoon]

Ok - so let's break this down.

When I say "distinctions" I mean, the main areas where Blizzard is putting a lot of focus. Naturally, Night Elves and Blood Elves being core races have a lot more, with them being big races in the WoW lore.

Fine, but you can't just draw lines wherever you want becuase you like that a lot about them and declare it as enshrined lore. Blizzard never made the high elves and blood elves dtob e only about arcane magic, nor did they ever make the night elves to be only about nature magic... the lore, their origin and even the developers intent, especially for night elves has been very well documented.

you can't just then go and claim it as the main purpose to push your agenda for alliance elves not to have or be goood at the magicy o love so much. When they made void elves, they were made specifically to be very good at hte void, but we even know for htem, the arcnae and their other skills, either as rangers or as priests is right up there. The nightbonre were speicifcally about the arcane, but becuase they are has never meant the blood elves automaticlaly stop being good or about the arcane - I don't care how many people think of the blood elves as the light based elves because tha'ts been their focus recently, it's not theonly thing they are good at. The nightborne existing doesn't negate the arcane elements that are embedded in the core of the night elves, whether only 2 nighte lves use the arcane now, or 3/4 of them, as long as the lore is not retconned about their existence, their arcane origins and their arcane talents, tihs continues to be the case.

it's fine for sentinels and hunter/wardens and druids to be emphasised now, it doens't negate the emphasis in legion on the arcane highborne and moonguard, or the shen'dralar in cata, nor would any emphasis on the priesthood , especially the black moon negate the others. It's not how these thigns work.

So the Alliance Night Elven primary force:
Sentinels, Druids, Priestesses and Wardens.

The Horde Blood Elven primary force:
Blood Knights, Farstriders, Magisters.

Lesser used forces from both:
Night Elven Magi, Blood Elven Warriors

Hardly used:
Blood Elven Warlocks

Never used:
Death Knights, Demon Hunters

This doesn't mean that night elf death knights and blood elf demon hunters aren't what they are, but as far as the lore goes for their respective races' factions, they just aren't truly focused on, in terms of the Alliance and Horde. It's why the Illidari as a whole have been largely forgotten since Legion. I mean, the Arathi and Darkshore Warfronts, for all their faults for implementation, did give us a good insight into the elves' respective armies.

Blood Elves still bolster a more varied array of soldiers, from Blood Knights through to Mages. Their Mages aren't anything like their High Elf counterparts, since the Blood Elves primarily focus and hem in on Blood Magic. It's why they are often referred to as "The Blood Magi." We also saw them in Nazmir during the faction assaults.

Yes, you are right here, - see, i'm not afraid nor too proud, to say when a persons that often argues with me is right about something.

Now you explain your context properly, I can agree. But be careful to not try to make it look like you are saying that horde elves have some exclusive right to arcane representation becuase their elves are very good at that and have been given teh hard assets of the races that are actually originally aliance based and still on teh alliance.

The Shen'dralar are conanoically the best living magi group in the game based on their description. (which you have to rely on since they haven't been shown much in game), and the void elves are the most magically active and skilled elven race as a group - never make the mistake that because some group or facet hasn't been shown much yet they either don't exist or are not effective, especially when the lore has descriptively written about them.

People made the exact same mistake about the kaldorei civlizaiton, dismissing it as noting much compared to say Silvermoon - because all they saw was ruins.. until Suramar showed up in 7.0, and then they caught a glimpse of Zin'Azshari in 8.1's Azshara warbringer. The same was said of demon hunters, yet from the text, their power was incredible. When blizzard eventually, nearly 14 years after their introduction,came to show them properly, they didn't hold back.

I think, your whole premise is that your just a little unhappy that the Horde carries a theme for Elven races, but not on the faction you prefer. I mean, it's alright...it's not like the Arcane isn't big with the Alliance, but a lot of it's focus tends to go to the Humans, likely because of commanding characters like Jaina Proudmoore and Khadgar. I mean, in comparison - who is Mordent Evenshade when compared to Jaina Proudmoore? When somebody says "Alliance Mage", who will they think of? Humans also have the 7th Legion group which is primarily Human led, but does have Elven and Gnome Magi members, but again - it's a Human/Stormwind-led organization.

It may seem that, but it's not quite what I'm unhappy about. i'm unhappy that the best aspects of the alliance elves are shown on the horde. I think tha'ts unfair.

As a night elf fan, they placed the group, against my wishes, on the alliance, then proceeded to tease the great things about them, with all those ruins in the original game, and in the cata remake (including Vashj'ir) while writing great tales about them. Teased by bringing the highborne back into the playable groups fold, but then not using them much. then finally doing them justice with Suramar, the Nightborne, the Farondis and Moonguard, then taking the best display of that and giving it to the horde.

So what now, I'm supposed to shift my loyalties to the horde because I liked that side of the night elves? I'm supposed to pretend as if the night elves don't have great arcane talent, history, mastery and that Highborne whether Shen'dralar, their Darnassian students, Farondis and Moonguard no longer matter? I'm to give up liking and loving the priesthood/sentinels and druidic sides of them (respectively) - because they took them horde? or worse, imagine the demon hunters with their 100% night elven origin, are now a primarily horde thing because the blood elves are shown a lot in them?

I watch the alliance be less and less interesting, because some of the coolest aspects of their high elves and night elves are sitting on the horde not making sense (why are the blood elves still on the horde???), why the hell would the Nightborne join them with all that kaldorei history , alliance races far more up their street .. that's not what the horde is about.

But fine, okay you give them some cool fancy friends, but then you leave the original night elves still in the dirt literally - only till 8.1 we saw them actually do something decent, and it seemed more contrived than genuine. when you are a real fan of the group, you would not have been consoled by the Night warrior lore.. you'd be waiting still fort he sentinels, priesthood, Highborne, even demon hunters to show their true power - where is the magic of the emerald dream and nature powerfully employed? Where is the great expertise of the Moon guard, Highborne, the power of the Well of Eternity that this group has wrough wonders no other race or elven group around has measured up to??? Where is the power of Elune that had starfall casting priestesses , and shields that could black even Sargeras power employed?

While I like the lore of hte black moon, it's existence without the showing up of the other expertise of the night elves is sending the message, that indeed those things the night elves were written to be good at, they actually are not anymore, therefore need the black moon. power. what should have been an additional cool development welcomed by all, leaves instead questions and a sour note like these people don't even know what the night elves are good at.

But they do, they're just too sloppy to get it right.. but they got Legion so nail on the head... why did Darkshore seem so sloppy? becuase it was rushed, fan appeasement without enough research to understand what we weren't happy about.

So you are wrong, it's not the theme the horde elves carry that I'm a little unhappy about , it's the lack of the show on the alliance. knowing what the lore says, even what the quests describes but seeing the alliance versions very much downplayed in the game, is what's annoying

This sort of thing has been around the Alliance for years and years. During the early years of Lordaeron, it was a Human, not a Highborne or High Elf, who was considered the most powerful and formidable Mage ever.

At least they weren't sloppy about that, the reason the guardian is great is because of an ancient elven device (I think it's night elven - and probably used by Azshara) is used by the elves, to combine their magical might of the individuals into one person. The first one chosen is a very talented half elven magi, The guardians are all powerful, don't know how many were elves and how many were human, you need to check that, but the story gets interesting when Aegwyn is given the mantle and then Medivh wit the power of the guardian (which is all those elven and human magic of the order 0 powerful ones).. so it's not really the human's individual magic or skill.

The best magic users go to the elves. Illidan Stormrage, Queen AZshara, Darth'remar Sunstrider, Prince Farondis, Lothrius Mooncaller, Elisande, Kael'thas Sunstrider, Anasterian Sunstrider - these have the greatest names in magic. Add to their number Jaina Proudmore, Khadgar, Alodi, Antonidas, and the elven ones still outnumber and outshine the human ones.

I've never felt insecure about the Alliance Elves being good at the Arcane...it's just Void Elves are the better of the two Alliance Elves, when it comes to using the Arcane and the Void. Void Elves are extremely skilled in both arts and have mastered created Void portals, for the exact same effect that a regular portal. The only places where these portals would not be so good would be Nazjatar and Nya'lotha. Having knowledge or theory doesn't help in practical matters. The proof of this was when the Shen'dralar were routed from their city, by the Horde. These so-called "revered Arcanists" were easily removed. Yes - the Highborne has the legacy behind it, but ever since the loss of the Well of eternity and Immol'thar, they truly haven't been great at much else.
I mean, during the Darkshore Warfront, Mordent only casts Arcane Missiles and then some "Nature Thorns" spell. Perhaps this is a sign that more Night Elf Magi are becoming more like Balance Druids?

Yes, they are, they are the most magical group of elves in the game period. when looking at it from the race angle. But when you go down to factions and sub-groups. The shen'dralar are the most distinguished and greatest faction of magic users, as a roup, their expertise, knowledge, and skill would outshine the Magisters of Silvermoon, Thalyssra's order amongst the Nightborne, their arcane knowledge outstrips that of the void elves and the kirin'tor, and that of the Moon Guard who are the best magical fighting group/faction. The best arcane theorists also go to the night elves of Azsuna. the Farondis Highborne and their Nar'thalas academy. Thanks to the lore, they're still around.

yet the night elves as aw hole are not the most arcane magical group by a long margin, simply because it's only the shen'drlaar group andhteir new highborne that use arcane magic, whereas the vast majority of the remaining night elves do not. Therefore the blood elves and especially the Nightborne as racial groups easily out perform and out class them in terms of arcane magical usage and proliferation. But if you count in nature and divine magic, so all magic again, guess who the pendulum swings back to?

1. Void elves
2. Nightborne
3. Night elves
4. Blood elves
5. Current High elves

That would be the order. Because still ALL void elves use the void and use it to a highly trained level. All Nightborne use magic, all of them, however the elvels of expertise vary enormously, only a fraction are mages. (i.e. the most trained magical usage). Most night elves use magic, arcane is amongst the highborne and pre-sundering orders, nature amongst the druids, huntresses, but also divine arcane, shadow, void is also used amongst the priesthood, wardens and sentinels, - so that's most of them, however there would be night elves who don't use magic at all.

Last of the main groups would be the blood elves. Whiles everyone is suffused by the sunwell, it is clear not every blood elves i magically gifted nor employs some for of magic, not to the extent we are shown in the other communities. It gest seven less amongst the high elven remnant i don't think Vereesa ahs been reported to show any magical abilities, but please check Day and Night of the Dragon again, and she's a famous high elf, a lot of the high elf rangers we meet don't employ magic and their order, isn't known much for using magic, and that is a major group amongst the Thalassians. Still it is possible htey do so please check.

Being suffused with magic, doesn't mean you use it. ALL night elves are suffused with arcane thanks ot their connection to the well of eternity, the northern ones didn't use their power, and the tree cut off the others like the Shen'dralar and Nightborne who do use theirs, from accessing it. All Thalassians are suffused with the arcane energies of the Sunwell, but not all use magic.

This is my current understanding. I have raise some question marks on certain points I'm not 100% sure on, so please feel free to provide corrections. My dasy of pouring through warcraft lore to prove points on forums are done for good. I'd leave others who care so much about being right and have the time to waste to do the homework.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=mickybrighteyes;53218297]I think the fuylly functional city and progress in previously unseen fields of arcane gives the edge to the Shal'dorei rather than the Shen'dralar...

the denizens of Dire Maul held magics from the breaking and spent more time infighting than.... while yes there was also strife among the Nightborne.. they still had advancements to show while the Shen'dralar seem to only show that they exist.

Chronomancy that seems derived from their knowledge and study of the arcane...

Was it ? I was led to believed it was from the titan artifact "The Eye of Aman'thul" that gave them access and insight into this field of magic. But then according ot the lore, the arcane is tied to all forms of magic, it is the building block so yes - nature, void, light, shadow, death, time, elements all can be accessed through the arcane. But that was in the earlier lore, don't know if that has been latently retconned - it's not ben touched on since.

Eldrethalas and Surumar suffered similar fates... one fell into ruin and disuse as a result.

Yes, and it kinda annoys me that people think the shen'drlar are useless because they are entirely judgign by what they see in the two cities and ignoring what the written lore says. But someone asked me why I was arguing with fools who don't care about what was actaully written or the truth. And he's right. Why was I wasting my time trying to correct people who obviously didn't want to know the truth. It's not as if their life depends on warcraft lore.

I think you have these pointsd very mixed up. One group were the keepers of understood knowledge and the other is a slice of the society that knowledge existed in... One is a stagnate ruin the devolved into a covert war of infighting and outside invasion that forced everyone to abandon the place... the other had a similar issue but was able to overthrow the negative influence and retain their position


At the time of the sundering the Shendralar were cutting edge.... 5000 years later? not so much.

The lore of Eldre'thalas tells us the mages there continued to furiously study the arcane, so they'd have made a lot of progress in terms of knowledge. We are just not shown the fruits of that labour, likely because of the old rig used for the place. If they were to redo the zone or it was a focus in the expansion, we'd have seen a much better display of what was actually going on there.

DIre Maul was the first patch because it wasn't finished in time for release, iunlike the night elven elements of legion, it did not have two years of development focusing on it, it's one of so many classic zones and dungeons. We must use the written lore combined with what we see to get the true context. Most people just use what they see. Wow fans are notorious for not reading information.. yet they love to come on forums and argue points.

[mickybrighteyes]

Was it ? I was led to believed it was from the titan artifact "The Eye of Aman'thul" that gave them access and insight into this field of magic. But then according ot the lore, the arcane is tied to all forms of magic, it is the building block so yes - nature, void, light, shadow, death, time, elements all can be accessed through the arcane. But that was in the earlier lore, don't know if that has been latently retconned - it's not ben touched on since.

I think it's more coinsidence that the eye of amanthul showed up. Time manipulation doesn't seem exclusive to the one artifact.

The lore of Eldre'thalas tells us the mages there continued to furiously study the arcane, so they'd have made a lot of progress in terms of knowledge. We are just not shown the fruits of that labour, likely because of the old rig used for the place. If they were to redo the zone or it was a focus in the expansion, we'd have seen a much better display of what was actually going on there.

Sad fact is we don't see any sort of major advancements for the shendralar besides their survival and return to Darnassus and training of half competent mages.

There is more lore on how they maintained their magical access than anything else (outside of removal from Dire Maul and infighting that is) and I know damn well I made mention of how LITTLE there is about the subject of how they maintained their magic and pointed out it was highly inconsistent with any other elves cut off from the main elven society for any period of time.

[Tanaria]

Yes, they are, they are the most magical group of elves in the game period. when looking at it from the race angle. But when you go down to factions and sub-groups. The shen'dralar are the most distinguished and greatest faction of magic users, as a roup, their expertise, knowledge, and skill would outshine the Magisters of Silvermoon, Thalyssra's order amongst the Nightborne, their arcane knowledge outstrips that of the void elves and the kirin'tor, and that of the Moon Guard who are the best magical fighting group/faction. The best arcane theorists also go to the night elves of Azsuna. the Farondis Highborne and their Nar'thalas academy. Thanks to the lore, they're still around.

Oh yes - so great, they were so easily defeated and drove out of their city, which they have still failed to reclaim and as far as we know, Dire Maul is now home to a large Ogre community.

Come on now, it's pretty clear that even the Humans outshine the Shen'dralar, never mind the Blood Elves and Nightborne on the Horde.

Jaina Proudmoore:
Raises ship and infused Arcane canons onto it.
Powered from the Thunder Isle
Creates many illusions of herself
Well versed in teleportation
Flies ship through Arcane Magical means

Shen'dralar Mages as a whole:
Gets attacked, killed and driven out by the Horde
Casts some "Flying Thorns" spells during the Darkshore Warfront
Teleports away upon defeat

So you are wrong, it's not the theme the horde elves carry that I'm a little unhappy about , it's the lack of the show on the alliance. knowing what the lore says, even what the quests describes but seeing the alliance versions very much downplayed in the game, is what's annoying

But the Arcane lore as a whole isn't lacking on the Alliance side...it just happens to go to the Humans more, then after that - Void Elves, Gnomes, Draenei, then Night Elves.

Fine, but you can't just draw lines wherever you want becuase you like that a lot about them and declare it as enshrined lore. Blizzard never made the high elves and blood elves dtob e only about arcane magic, nor did they ever make the night elves to be only about nature magic... the lore, their origin and even the developers intent, especially for night elves has been very well documented.

you can't just then go and claim it as the main purpose to push your agenda for alliance elves not to have or be goood at the magicy o love so much. When they made void elves, they were made specifically to be very good at hte void, but we even know for htem, the arcnae and their other skills, either as rangers or as priests is right up there. The nightbonre were speicifcally about the arcane, but becuase they are has never meant the blood elves automaticlaly stop being good or about the arcane - I don't care how many people think of the blood elves as the light based elves because tha'ts been their focus recently, it's not theonly thing they are good at. The nightborne existing doesn't negate the arcane elements that are embedded in the core of the night elves, whether only 2 nighte lves use the arcane now, or 3/4 of them, as long as the lore is not retconned about their existence, their arcane origins and their arcane talents, tihs continues to be the case.

it's fine for sentinels and hunter/wardens and druids to be emphasised now, it doens't negate the emphasis in legion on the arcane highborne and moonguard, or the shen'dralar in cata, nor would any emphasis on the priesthood , especially the black moon negate the others. It's not how these thigns work.

It's not me that draws the lines - it's Blizzard.

It's fairly clear, that as far as the Alliance Night Elf lore goes, that Blizzard are not all that interested in the Shen'dralar. I mean, in the latest novel which has the Night Elf leaders in full view, Mordent is not one of them. I mean, this was authorized by Blizzard...the night elf fan in question doesn't mention him.

I suppose this is all down to Night Elf fans wanting more of a W3 vibe back. I'm not against it, because at least it makes the race stand out from the others.
Blizzard has the chance to link the Night Elves and Void Elves together, but through contrasting differences, which sets them apart from their Blood Elf and Nightborne counterpart relationship. When you kept talking about making Blood Elves and Nightborne different, well - that hasn't happened. Why? Because they're making Night Elves and Void Elves different, which is fine. Not your typical "Alliance Elves" acting and being different within the Alliance...that's actually interesting, rather than trying to be Horde Elves, which will only end in failure.

It may seem that, but it's not quite what I'm unhappy about. i'm unhappy that the best aspects of the alliance elves are shown on the horde. I think tha'ts unfair.

As a night elf fan, they placed the group, against my wishes, on the alliance, then proceeded to tease the great things about them, with all those ruins in the original game, and in the cata remake (including Vashj'ir) while writing great tales about them. Teased by bringing the highborne back into the playable groups fold, but then not using them much. then finally doing them justice with Suramar, the Nightborne, the Farondis and Moonguard, then taking the best display of that and giving it to the horde.

So what now, I'm supposed to shift my loyalties to the horde because I liked that side of the night elves? I'm supposed to pretend as if the night elves don't have great arcane talent, history, mastery and that Highborne whether Shen'dralar, their Darnassian students, Farondis and Moonguard no longer matter? I'm to give up liking and loving the priesthood/sentinels and druidic sides of them (respectively) - because they took them horde? or worse, imagine the demon hunters with their 100% night elven origin, are now a primarily horde thing because the blood elves are shown a lot in them?

I watch the alliance be less and less interesting, because some of the coolest aspects of their high elves and night elves are sitting on the horde not making sense (why are the blood elves still on the horde???), why the hell would the Nightborne join them with all that kaldorei history , alliance races far more up their street .. that's not what the horde is about.

Blood Elves are still on the Horde because of Human, High Elf and Night Elf racism against them.
Blood Elves are NOT High Elves or Night Elves...it's only nelf mage fans who think this, because they want something that's not on the faction they like.

Blood Elves are better on the Horde and Lor'themar has been instrumental in maintaining calm within the Horde, during these times. It's ironic, but Lor'themar Theron is acting like the main leader of the Horde, basically - the Warchief, in all but the Warchief's name and it's great.

And the Darnassian students do not have a great vibe with the arcane...look at Azshara. Clumsy, stupid and accident prone. It's why the Sin'dorei could easily cause their creations to malfunction. This also shows the arcane mastery the Sin'dorei have - let's not forget that it was a Sin'dorei creation that destroyed Theramore.

Another note: The Blood Elves (And Nightborne) have never been against actually going to war. The former only holds reservations when their people are not ready. When Garrosh was planning his attack on Theramore, Lor'themar was in support of it...ironically, it was only Sylvanas who opposed it (due to the timing. She wasn't against the strike, itself.)

The same applies to BFA - the main races on the Horde who were horrified by Teldrassil were the Orcs and Tauren, followed then by the Trolls. 3 out of the 4 original core races, stood against what Sylvanas had done. Blood Elves and Nightborne only joined the Orcs, Tauren and Trolls later on.
I think many people skip these parts because they don't want to admit that Blood Elves and Nightborne have outlooks that fit the Horde's PoV. The might not look the part, but they fit in.

And it's not a case of the "best Alliance Elves being shown on the Horde." It's a case of Alliance and Horde Elves being shown what they do best. It just so happens, the Arcane is something that is more well-shown on the Horde. Druidism, Elune's powers and Void-control is something that is still very firmly held onto by the Alliance. It's not really fair for all Alliance Elves to be shown to be the best at everything and Blood Elves and Nightborne are made to look clumsy in their natural fields. Might as well give the Horde Elves an Arcane edge, to showcase them as being good at something.

This discounts the other races, because Humans, Blood Elves and Nightborne seem to be the main "Mage" based races, with Void Elves coming after.

[ravenmoon]

Oh yes - so great, they were so easily defeated and drove out of their city, which they have still failed to reclaim and as far as we know, Dire Maul is now home to a large Ogre community.

Come on now, it's pretty clear that even the Humans outshine the Shen'dralar, never mind the Blood Elves and Nightborne on the Horde.

Jaina Proudmoore:
Raises ship and infused Arcane canons onto it.
Powered from the Thunder Isle
Creates many illusions of herself
Well versed in teleportation
Flies ship through Arcane Magical means

Shen'dralar Mages as a whole:
Gets attacked, killed and driven out by the Horde
Casts some "Flying Thorns" spells during the Darkshore Warfront
Teleports away upon defeat

As i said, you are shown more of other groups and people in game, but just becasue blizzard hasn't shown you waht the shend'ralar have done and can do, doesn't mean they can't. The lore has told you about them, thisshould inform you until you can see them.

It's not hard to understand.

But the Arcane lore as a whole isn't lacking on the Alliance side...it just happens to go to the Humans more, then after that - Void Elves, Gnomes, Draenei, then Night Elves.

you do realise that in general it was the alliance that was the "magical faction" and the horde was more phsyical and corrupted magic. So yeh, night elves a very magical race wer eput there although I personally feel they shouldh ave continued on their own as The magical faction, because the alliance is not a pure magical faction, magic is only a part of it, a large part, but there are other larger parts, wheras with night elves it's in everything.

It's not me that draws the lines - it's Blizzard.

But blizzard's line don't mean what you've described them to mean.

[Tanaria]

Snip.

You'll find, it does - especially when it comes to Blood Elves and Night Elves.

Having these two as polar opposites with their armies having completely different soldiers is so crucial to having them distinct. So what if the Horde Elves have more Mages than the Alliance ones? It's not the end of the world. Alliance have got "Mage" legends like Jaina and Aegwynn

And magic is not "everything" to Night Elves...at least not Arcane. That goes to the Blood Elves and Nightborne. The Ruins of Silvermoon became "The Ruins of Silvermoon" as it was the magic of the Sunwell that was holding it up. Then we've got the Arcane Sanctums across Quel'Thalas and also the Runestones.

And I'm tired of you wanting the Horde to be one specific thing (basically crazed nutty Trolls and then everything else basically being "Warlock" and/or "Death Knight related.) The Horde is no longer this "Fel and Death" faction. It's grown and people need to understand that basic fact; and the Alliance to be another specific thing, but the latter having more options to grow and expand (like having Worgen, Void Elves and Dark Iron.)
Why can't the Horde be the more "Arcane Elf" faction and the Alliance be the more "Druidic" and "Void" Elf based faction? I mean, that's controversial, but it works and it breaks the boring Tolkien-ism that we would otherwise get.

[ravenmoon]

You'll find, it does - especially when it comes to Blood Elves and Night Elves.

Having these two as polar opposites with their armies having completely different soldiers is so crucial to having them distinct. So what if the Horde Elves have more Mages than the Alliance ones? It's not the end of the world. Alliance have got "Mage" legends like Jaina and Aegwynn

They are distinct, but they are not meant to be polar opposite. That division is made up by you. Blizzard never said and never presented them that way.

Blizzard presented the night elves as the source and origin of ALL elves, not some sub division of elves. You can have parts of the night elves in the sub groups, parts in the high elves, blood elves, void elves, Nightborne, worgen etc, but in the night elves you have all the major things that are part of elves.. affinity for magic, love of nature, beauty, high intelligence, and great dexterity present.

This is how they presented the night elves, and they haven't removed any of that from that. Sure they haven't shown much of some areas over the other.. we saw nothing of wardens till 7.0, and Demon hunters had such little presence till Legion, etc, but even when one section is quiet, it's not gone.

So stop assuming Night elves and blood elves are some polar opposites because they are in a different faction. That's just your faction mindset dividing everything in the horde and alliance into opposites when it's obvious from the get go they aren't. don't you get it, blood elves are your prime break from the opposites of the horde and alliance, they started unifying a lot of things in wow, they failed to give classes distinctive versions in races, despite that been the initial case in the lore.

They also put druids and warlocks in both factions, and later followed with paladins and shaman. High elves were never set up to be opposites to night elves, why do you want to assume or make blood elves opposites to night elves, they aren't. They are a variation, an alternate stream, a derived stream.

And magic is not "everything" to Night Elves...at least not Arcane. That goes to the Blood Elves and Nightborne. The Ruins of Silvermoon became "The Ruins of Silvermoon" as it was the magic of the Sunwell that was holding it up. Then we've got the Arcane Sanctums across Quel'Thalas and also the Runestones.

And I'm tired of you wanting the Horde to be one specific thing (basically crazed nutty Trolls and then everything else basically being "Warlock" and/or "Death Knight related.) The Horde is no longer this "Fel and Death" faction. It's grown and people need to understand that basic fact; and the Alliance to be another specific thing, but the latter having more options to grow and expand (like having Worgen, Void Elves and Dark Iron.)
Why can't the Horde be the more "Arcane Elf" faction and the Alliance be the more "Druidic" and "Void" Elf based faction? I mean, that's controversial, but it works and it breaks the boring Tolkien-ism that we would otherwise get.

Magic is everything to elves.. whether it's Arcane, nature or divine depends on what group or what order you're involved with,.. but it's through and through. The order of Elune are full of Elune's arcane starlight and shadow night magic - wardens, priestesses use magic all the time, druids are full of nature magic, and it looks like many night elves know some tricks involving that , just like in the pre-sundering days all knew arcane tricks. in the arcane groups it's all magic too, except it's arcane, in the demon hunter groups, it's all magic too, amongst the blood elves, it's al magic, void elves, is all magic, high elves, magic, San'layn magic..

is the magic always arcane ? NO.. it's death sometimes, fel others, light sometimes, nature others, void sometimes. Very old school to only call arcane magic magic.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

I'm specifically talking about Arcane Magic, that Mages draw upon.

Of the two, the Blood Elven fighting force has more of this. This is why they are distinct and should remain as opposites.
Only a few fans want them to be the same - majority of us want them to be completely different. I don't want to feel like a night elf, when I'm playing my Blood Elf Mage. I want to feel like I'm playing a skilled Magistrix of the Sin'dorei people.

[Toppy]

I mean you can honestly keep sitting and hoping that one day that blizzard allows an Alliance race thats not humans do something of note, but I imagine you'll be sitting for as long as it takes for them to shuffle in a new write staff. As was stated early on in this thread; blizzard has blatantly admitted to prefering to write humans for Alliance (because its easier because "We're human" and this tendency has only gotten SIGNIFICANTLY worse with the inclusion of such poor writers as Golden who has a massive human bias.

[Jackstraw]

just becasue blizzard hasn't shown you waht the shend'ralar have done and can do, doesn't mean they can't. The lore has told you about them, thisshould inform you until you can see them.

But we have.

We already went through this. The Shen'dralar returned to prominence in Cataclysm but in the current Night Elf society there's just no place for them.
Of course we can speculate: what if the tides turn and the Kaldorei rediscover their aptitude for the Arcane?
Well, first you'd have to defeat the notion rooted in their culture - as it has for ten millennia - that the arcane is to actively shun because it led to destruction and corruption. And the Shen'dralar are still atoning for that.

Yes, they've been instrumental in helping during the Molten Front campaign. But whole millennia of isolation fueled by nothing but demon energy does not lead to any type of evolution.
Let's take for a second a page from another topic: other elves when using other types of magic and tampering with them underwent significant changes in due time:
Kaldorei and Quel'dorei under the bubble and with the influence of the Nightwell and heavy arcane magic became Nightborne, Nightfallen in abstinence and Withered in deprivation.
Quel'dorei with the influene of the Sunwell became Quel'thalas Quel'dorei (for lack of a better term), or High Elves.
The overwhelming majority of High Elves under duress from the loss of the Sunwell become Sin'dorei, their eyes morphing to green when slightly exposed to Fel Magic.
The overwhelming majority of Sin'dorei exposed to the recovered Sunwell, now a beacon of light magic, have their eyes morphed to bright yellow.
The Sin'dorei who exposed themselves to the study of the Void alongside Umbric in an extremely short amount of time have their complexion warped and became Ren'dorei. Although this could be due to the extremely corrupting nature of said energy when not protected by plot armor.

And as @Super Dickmann aptly stated, the exposition to Fel changes dramatically. In the same time window, although probably with different exposure, the Nightborne who exposed themselves to Fel became Felborne.

The Shen'dralar never changed. Of course there is some satyrs in Dire Maul, but I'd be hardly pressed to state that satyrs are the logical evolution of the Shen'dralar and their reward for weaving Fel into their arcane practices.

Magic, as it's shown, is either driven by immense talent (Jaina) or mastered by constant study and practice (Oculeth). And the Shen'dralar, as shown in game, lack in both.
Sure they got the knowledge, and could be amazing teachers. But there's a sizable difference between a teacher and a master.

[ravenmoon]

But we have.

We already went through this. The Shen'dralar returned to prominence in Cataclysm but in the current Night Elf society there's just no place for them.
Of course we can speculate: what if the tides turn and the Kaldorei rediscover their aptitude for the Arcane?
Well, first you'd have to defeat the notion rooted in their culture - as it has for ten millennia - that the arcane is to actively shun because it led to destruction and corruption. And the Shen'dralar are still atoning for that.

Yes off course we can speculate, that is what makes these discussions discussions, but fact remains is we haven't seen them do much .. and blizzard doesn't always show tings. W e must use what we are told to inform us, especially in areas of inactivity or low activity, because we are acutely aware of how this game is developed.


Blizzard doesn't show every detail, nor does it expand on every group, not even for consistency sake.. groups tied into stories are sometimes shown only for the part of the story they want them involved in to produce the effect that they have, and that's it, they won't show more.. this is what informs what you see in game, but in-game is not the whole picture, this is why they have the lore, the texts, to provide contexts to a lot of things you aren't always shown.

To be fair, I feel that if night elves were a serious focus they'd have a lot more detail including the Shen'dralar would be shown a lot more, but the entire race is mostly ignored, and seems to exist to show how dangerous Garrosh is and how threatening the horde are for most of the cata series, not to actually show you how amazing the night elves an be.


which is not to say they aren't, there is a lot of mismatch between what they say and what they show, this is the bad inconsistency, but we cannot ignore what is aid or prefer what is shown I when what is shown isn't covering everything that should be or can be shown, which it never does.

So if the lore tells us these guys were the most revered arcansists, this is what they are
they didn't get ruined from the wotA or lose their numbers/expertise then, they kept it all, which means they've been at it for 10k years
Over that period they lost a lot of their numbers, it is likely the best of the best are the ones that survived, the most scholarly, the most useful, but details are vague.
They processed the Queen's top projects, often in secrets, shows that the best of the best attributed to Azshara and the glory of hte emprie comes forom their work, this puts them at a very high level.

So they keep studying they keep themselves practising, in the book, i.e. Wolfheart, they are shown to remark that they have to keep practising so their skills don't wane.

But we are never shown them doing anything. nor told at this point.

To me this just says, that they've largely been under utilised and much of their prowess and glory has yet to be shown. but the devs felt it necessary to give them such an outstanding and very elevated position. Which makes sense, it truly takes something remarkable to have survived quite isolated, in a community for nearly 9,000 years after teh sundering robs you of the well, only falling to ruin in the last 1000 years, gradually.. to have trapped a demon and used it's power source too, and mostly avoided corruption, which to me implies they really did a great job to the best of their abilities and knowledge, but the demon was quite cunning, despite their shcakles and safeguards , he exerted a very subtle control , that took millennia, but eventually did it's work.

Yes, they've been instrumental in helping during the Molten Front campaign. But whole millennia of isolation fueled by nothing but demon energy does not lead to any type of evolution.
Let's take for a second a page from another topic: other elves when using other types of magic and tampering with them underwent significant changes in due time:
Kaldorei and Quel'dorei under the bubble and with the influence of the Nightwell and heavy arcane magic became Nightborne, Nightfallen in abstinence and Withered in deprivation.
Quel'dorei with the influene of the Sunwell became Quel'thalas Quel'dorei (for lack of a better term), or High Elves.
The overwhelming majority of High Elves under duress from the loss of the Sunwell become Sin'dorei, their eyes morphing to green when slightly exposed to Fel Magic.
The overwhelming majority of Sin'dorei exposed to the recovered Sunwell, now a beacon of light magic, have their eyes morphed to bright yellow.
The Sin'dorei who exposed themselves to the study of the Void alongside Umbric in an extremely short amount of time have their complexion warped and became Ren'dorei. Although this could be due to the extremely corrupting nature of said energy when not protected by plot armor.

My point is every situation is different. Not everyone is changed by magic. Night elves are more resilient than you think too, it took rather extraordinary circumstances to change them to high elves and to nightborne. Look at how often demon hunters deal with fel magic, Are they a bloody new sub-race? No.

Every situation is different, the lore and game show you this, some things afforded a variation large enough to be new sub-species, or sub race, otheres did not.

Also sometimes the changes are not as big as you think, they are overly exaggerated in game for faction and racial distinctiveness, it's part of how wow does things, if humans were on both factions, one group would look very different from the other -- do not undead look and feel very different from normal humans, yet they're just undead versions of the original.

While we like the distinctiveness of each group, it's the charm of warcraft, put it in perspective with regards to what we are shown. Though magical forces can sometimes change elves, , they don't always, and let's be fair, the changes are not as drastic as many people think.

The way some have carried on about elves, you'd think they were a different species, yet they are still elves. They belong to that racial family. so obviously the degree of change is greatly exaggerated in your mind, and it is the psychological effect the games assets and segregation produce.

And as @Super Dickmann aptly stated, the exposition to Fel changes dramatically. In the same time window, although probably with different exposure, the Nightborne who exposed themselves to Fel became Felborne.

The Shen'dralar never changed. Of course there is some satyrs in Dire Maul, but I'd be hardly pressed to state that satyrs are the logical evolution of the Shen'dralar and their reward for weaving Fel into their arcane practices.

Magic, as it's shown, is either driven by immense talent (Jaina) or mastered by constant study and practice (Oculeth). And the Shen'dralar, as shown in game, lack in both.
Sure they got the knowledge, and could be amazing teachers. But there's a sizable difference between a teacher and a master.

Problem with Dickmann's assessment is that he assumes it's fel involved with the Shen'dralar (we aren't told, it's just corruption - demons wield an assortment of magics too, fel is marked by it's green colour, which Immol'thar doesn't have, it's white - arcane like, demons are known to also use void - they are not all the same), but blizzard doesn't even have a set standard on type of exposure, degree of exposure etc that constitutes change. Sure sucking directly does, and drinking blood elves, that's very intimate, kinda like sex. And all magic has the potential to change, but also change you in different ways, depending on your species, type of use, type of magic, etc.. there is no one standard. You have to look at each situation. We are told how the blood elves changed, but not every warlock that uses fel spells changes at all.. why is that? it is quite corruptive. We are not explained, but we are told and shown there is a difference. And i'm fine with that. h ow the blood lves sucked fel from demons and crystals and the orcs ingested it seems far more pervasive or can be viewed as far more pervasive than say how a warlock uses fel afterall, wielding a fire flamethrower is different than being immersed in fire isn't it, but fire is handled in both cases.

To assume immol'thar is radiating of fel energy when it isn't show.. the dog is a giant arcane white/blue thing, if anything the corruptive influence is evil likely from void not fel, but either way we aren't shown exactly what it is. it is just said corrupting. Even the arcane and nature can be corrupting if used int he wrong way.

What are we shown in Dire Maul? Arcane pylons, these are filtering and regulating/drawing the power from Immol'thar.. the demon is able to slowly redress the balance over millennia which leads them tot he state that caused the decline about 1,000 to 2,000 years ago .. yes it is a form of demonic corruption but one that should automatically cause some physiological difference is not stated. Let's be precise about it.

WE can complain about inconsistencies, but sometimes it is lack of definition, we can't assume this is the same situation of fel ingestion, because we are not shown fel.

Let's go on what the text tells us, and what we are shown and build from them, rather than draw conclusions as if they are certainties.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm specifically talking about Arcane Magic, that Mages draw upon.

Of the two, the Blood Elven fighting force has more of this. This is why they are distinct and should remain as opposites.
Only a few fans want them to be the same - majority of us want them to be completely different. I don't want to feel like a night elf, when I'm playing my Blood Elf Mage. I want to feel like I'm playing a skilled Magistrix of the Sin'dorei people.

Stop, just STOP .. they are distinct for many different reasons, it doesn't have to be that one alone does arcane, while the other doesn't..

you have been shown this is not the dividing line, and that hasn't changed. You should update your view.

Arcane magic is part of the night elves, they've had a well of arcane power for 15,000 years, and moonwells for the last 10,000 in addition. it's there whether only a fraction of their society uses it for spells, the vast majority or none of it. It is a core part of their history, and they have several societies and groups in that tradition too, stop trying to create false lines of distinction.

Difference are shown between the two, use the lore and your experience to get a more accurate picutre of what they are, in spite of what you would like. Arcane is not an exclusive thing to blood elves. However Blood elves have an entire society that has a lot more arcane usage for spells, that's one of it's distinguishing factors at least versus the playable kaldorei group (not necessarily versus all kaldorei), and the type of arcane they are quite prolific now has shifted from elemental water manipulation in frost to fire instead. Night elves who use the arcane for spells seem to have a far heavier focus on stellar manipulation - moon and stars, that is already a difference. the philosophies are different, the ideology that drives the two societies are different.

And neither society is uniform in all it's beliefs either. Stop trying to cut them to one size fits all. This is not how they are written or presented.

[Jackstraw]

So if the lore tells us these guys were the most revered arcansists, this is what they are
they didn't get ruined from the wotA or lose their numbers/expertise then, they kept it all, which means they've been at it for 10k years
Over that period they lost a lot of their numbers, it is likely the best of the best are the ones that survived, the most scholarly, the most useful, but details are vague.
They processed the Queen's top projects, often in secrets, shows that the best of the best attributed to Azshara and the glory of hte emprie comes forom their work, this puts them at a very high level.

So they keep studying they keep themselves practising, in the book, i.e. Wolfheart, they are shown to remark that they have to keep practising so their skills don't wane.

But we are never shown them doing anything. nor told at this point.

To me this just says, that they've largely been under utilised and much of their prowess and glory has yet to be shown. but the devs felt it necessary to give them such an outstanding and very elevated position. Which makes sense, it truly takes something remarkable to have survived quite isolated, in a community for nearly 9,000 years after teh sundering robs you of the well, only falling to ruin in the last 1000 years, gradually.. to have trapped a demon and used it's power source too, and mostly avoided corruption, which to me implies they really did a great job to the best of their abilities and knowledge, but the demon was quite cunning, despite their shcakles and safeguards , he exerted a very subtle control , that took millennia, but eventually did it's work.


My point is every situation is different. Not everyone is changed by magic. Night elves are more resilient than you think too, it took rather extraordinary circumstances to change them to high elves and to nightborne. Look at how often demon hunters deal with fel magic, Are they a bloody new sub-race? No.

Quoting this because I feel it's the most important thing.

Emphasis mine: the Shen'dralar were the most revered things 10k years ago. And they kept training so that their skills didn't wane with magic that was relevant all those years ago.
We can assume as all things that magic evolved from then. If you don't try to improve, your level is bound to stagnate.

Nightborne are not a good comparison: they lived with the Nightwell and started tampering with the Arcane's ability of time bending and space warping, and grew dependant.
The Arcan'dor bridges this arcane hypertrophy with the vastly developed nature magic of the Kaldorei, with Thalyssra recognizing the good this did to the point of separating her people from the Nightwell.

Demon Hunters are not a good comparison either: aside from the fact that their usage of Fel is circumstantial, and harnessing the demon within does not come with any shown magical practice training but rather as a physical enhancing tool, they do undergo visible modifications: they grow horns and their eyes become green or straight up flaming green, and this is after suppressing the power of said demon with arcane tools via their tattoos.

In closing, set aside the overwhelming aptitude Illidan had for magic and the possibility of him developing the tattoos as arcane wards from a Shen'dralar ritual or practice, spending ten thousand years with Immor'thar's essence seeping out of his prison was bound to have an effect on those who would tap on its energy. Unless of course their study of said magic had no effect on them due to the ineffectiveness of their methods and subsequent reduced exposition.

Also:
Fel is Fel. Like any other cosmic energy, it severely corrupts the wielder. If it's a demon, it's Fel.
Be it so that previous iterations of the game suffered from tech limitations, there's just no way for your chosen Night Elves to be the special snowflake that does not get corrupted. There can be only one Alleria, and even only one is severely grating.