Sanctum of Domination Ending cinematic

[Vakir]

And your opinion is better than his why?

I don't claim to have perfect taste, but I do know I'm not inclined to get distracted by the narrative equivalent of keys being dangled in front of my face.

I like how you act like the sigils are something that just sprung up when WQ had pretty much alluded to at least her own a while back as being the thing keeping him trapped.

I mean seriously how many of you people don't actually watch/read what you're playing?

At least you got right the concept that has people keep saying "boring bad guy, doesn't do anything to us" by understanding he really doesn't have to and as such doesn't CARE about us.

Oh boy! Some supporting text is totally the same thing as having a meaningful narrative constructed with actual stakes from the beginning. It doesn't matter if nothing we do matters and the plot just kind of happens because reasons. Kind of like how vague whispers are now the exact kind of mystery box bullshit that people think passes as valid foreshadowing and intrigue when they're both reverse engineered and foretell events that are arbitrary plot points rather than earned. "They got lots of attention by fan-site speculation, so clearly we should just keep repeating that."

If your villain "doesn't care" or have even passably relatable motivations, don't expect me to either. There's examples of stories where your antagonistic force doesn't care about or value anything and is either above that or beyond our comprehension, but it is typically reserved for background villains we lack interaction with, or Lovecraftian horror type tropes. This is not one of those times. But even the most standard bad guys in Warcraft's history that were two dimensional mustache-twirlers at least occasionally had a fucking personality.

But even then, they still throw in generic 80s cartoon doomsday one-liners like growling about how our soul is his, so he clearly did care at some point. At least until it didn't matter anymore, because it never does.

You can defend it all you want, but there is no changing the fact that the quote in question is a teenager getting pumped about a cool action figure with skulls all over it but no substance.

But that's neither here nor there, because Zovaal's not even the biggest offender so much as the completely random-ass timing of Sylvanas' set of decisions. The guy is named The Jailer, uses literal "Domination magic", has motifs involving chains and torture, and other completely reasonable and non-suspicious things. You can argue that Sylvanas, brilliant tactician, was aware his plan was subjugation but never suspected he would imply he'd turn the same bullshit on her, but that's equally naive.

Basically, it shits on people who like Sylvanas as a villain, shits on people who wanted her to have a redemption arc that was earned, shits on people who care about neither but wanted her to have direct agency over her actions, and shits on people who wanted actual consequences and comeuppance for her behaviors. All while making Zovaal actively worse as a villain by releasing three extremely critical pawns for funsies, two of which he wanted in the first place, and then giving Sylvanas her soul back for effectively no reason. All when she is a lieutenant that is clearly very powerful and could have just been subjugated further to be an asset. It makes him look like such a jackass.

"But it's not for no reason! He wants to make her suffer by being burdened by mortality and/or having to confront the weight of her decisions!" or some such speculation. (Or is just arrogant)

Yeah, but when a villain makes a decision that could maybe bite them in the ass later without directly realizing, it's a good karmic story. When a villain makes a decision that so obviously will bite them in the ass later and there is no conceivable justification for it other than for the plot to happen, it's a fucking comedy.

The entire thing is literally a perfect storm of bad decisions. They had 12 different routes they could have gone and picked the worst version of all of them.

I didn't really rename myself for this, but okay. And yes, I am interested in Zovaal. Dude did more stuff than Sargeras and the LK combined. I'm just telling you how it is, really.

So if a writer introduces a character that is spontaneously crammed into a role to either devalue or hijack characters that came before them, that makes them instantly worthwhile?

Is that what passes now? A bullet point list of things a character did or was tangentially responsible for within the meta-lore but without actually earning those revelations?

When we get the new version of Chronicle in 10 years (which is the 100% definitive and accurate lore bible this time, we swear, until it isn't), and a new lead writer says there's a sole divine creator that was responsible for the creation of the First Ones, who were his servants, is that new character spontaneously "interesting" because he has the biggest hierarchy dick? Even if we meet him and he has the presence of wallpaper paste? It's nonsense.

[TheFirstOnes]

How does he devalue the past characters?

Also, Zovaal literally takes each Sigil himself. The fuck? Dude's fucked us over plenty of times over.

- - - Updated - - -

First of all " lol" on the whole Thanos and infinity gauntlet feeling of that ending. What was with the whole portal in the background.

and 2nd, what a given, for no reason, rhyme of reason sylvanasn tried to "do the right thing" with NO consecense, no she got rewarded with her soul back, and did she die? ofc not.
Will she die by the others? ofc not, they will forgive her, see that she tried, forget the genonice, and She just tried so damn hard for 2 sec. So lets forgive her Maybe make her warcheif of the whole horde and alliance, for she truly knows best, and tried so damn hard, after all the murder, genocide, inslaveing of others, the Killing of souls,All because she wanted her own soul. So lets forgive her.

The Portal was for Zovaal to leave the Shadowlands and enter the Great Dark. I have an idea of how Azeroth could fit here btw.

[snakeeyesma81]

Can't just admit you were wrong. Thought so.

You do realize that a large part of the playerbase is casual and won't likely even see this cinematic till they finish LFR? Not everyone runs to youtube for spoilers.

[lanesia24]

Renaming oneself to get hyped about imagination-devoid, retrofitted plot device characters.

Having interest in a character with absolutely no value or personality purely because of their relative Dragonball power level.

Finding a story actually compelling because "villain succeeded in their plan!!1" despite it being a series of MacGuffins introduced and 3/4 of them resolved within literally 30 minutes.

This guy is the sort of audience Blizzard wants for WoW now.

Wait are people dumb enough to expect WoW to have AAA storytelling or something? I guess a lot of people are actually that stupid here. Like personally I felt it was predictable as well but I'm actually curious to see how it goes because he restored her and I'm assuming took away her Jailer bestowed powers and she's left in the hands of everyone that basically wants to kill her. Also don't know how to fully story will go.

It's funny how people judge others so handily for liking something yet you don't even know what the ending will look like and try to act all superior. But it's the internet where every low intellect fuckwad is apparently amazing at EVERYTHING of course. Yes I understand the irony but it's what you people do so you can't judge me for it.

[Sorshen]

You do realize that a large part of the playerbase is casual and won't likely even see this cinematic till they finish LFR? Not everyone runs to youtube for spoilers.

It's on the front page of mmo-champ and wowhead, that's plenty of exposure, specially considering it's raid launch/new m+ season day.

[Vakir]

How does he devalue the past characters?

Also, Zovaal literally takes each Sigil himself. The fuck? Dude's fucked us over plenty of times over.

Because he takes the place as effectively the sole and most relevant baddie in the lore by retroactively being behind almost every single plot in WoW's meta-narrative through being the actual force influencing the Nathrezim (by proxy of being Denathrius' handler) and then some.

Also, you seem to be confused. The issue isn't whether Zovaal takes the Sigil himself or not. He could one-shot everyone and everything in the entire universe and I would still feel absolutely nothing. This isn't about his feats or his ability to accomplish anything. If your character's motivations are either ill-defined or just uninteresting, you are still a bad villain. If the way you convey your simplistic goal is dull, boring, and lacking in any personality, you are still a bad villain.

Nobody ever said, I dunno, Gul'dan is a deep and layered Shakespearean figure, but he's entertaining as shit when he does things. Sire Denathrius is another good example for this expansion. He has a certain charisma. The "intrigue" surrounding Zovaal is entirely relegated to his influence on the meta story and not his actual presentation, personality, or motivations surrounding his actions. He has all the power and all the cards but none of it means anything because by the end of the story, he will still have lost, and he will still have been deeply boring.

Similarly, nobody cares about how many times Zovaal has fucked us over. He could personally hijack my UI and I wouldn't give a shit if he kept being a dull walking turd only now he has a NEW HAT I mean helmet.

But again, he does not suffer as the biggest issue in this ending anyway.

Wait are people dumb enough to expect WoW to have AAA storytelling or something?

There's degrees to things. Warcraft has always been schlocky on some level. This is a new elevation of schlock. Having low standards isn't the same as having none.

[snakeeyesma81]

It's on the front page of mmo-champ and wowhead, that's plenty of exposure, specially considering it's raid launch/new m+ season day.

Again, you think casuals frequent here? And Tbh, i had been unsubbed quite awhile, and hadn't been on this site in some time. I was pretty shocked at how few comments and activity i saw on things here compared to...idk 5ish years ago when i was raiding hardcore and on here daily. Did something happen? Or just died down with WoW, since it's what is mainly covered?

The reason i bring up casuals is that over the 12+ years i've been playing, like....90% of complaints have been over changes made to cater more to casuals. Those types of players often don't even really pay attention to the lore, and probably would think this is pretty clue, without even knowing what's going on. Tons of my friends go in and out. It's kinda frustrating, they miss entire expansions and have zero clue what's going on. Idk...maybe blizzard keeps it simple by design. Sure, it's a middle finger to us who keep up with all the lore, but to a random just picking it up or coming back after years, they still get the gist of things.

[Sorshen]

Again, you think casuals frequent here? And Tbh, i had been unsubbed quite awhile, and hadn't been on this site in some time. I was pretty shocked at how few comments and activity i saw on things here compared to...idk 5ish years ago when i was raiding hardcore and on here daily. Did something happen? Or just died down with WoW, since it's what is mainly covered?

Yes, plenty of casuals around. Discord happened.

[Super Dickmann]

I don't know what people mean when they dislike it that hard. I have to say, as incredibly janky and cheap as the cinematic was, seeing the Warchief tell not just this throw-away grey raid boss, but also the entire moral framework of the last few terrible expansion plots he was stuck in to go fuck themselves, proclaim that he did nothing wrong and go out one last time on his own terms was unironically enjoyable. For it to end any other way would have been out of character and for once I don't think anyone can seriously argue Blizzard didn't capture both the spirit of his character and his appeal.

Press F(or the Horde) for Garrosh.

Oh, you mean the Sylvanas one? Dear fucking christ, where do I start?

For one, coming out of a raid fight entirely unscathed removes the entire point of making a character a raid boss. This was the case for Jaina, it is even more the case here because the players are literally right behind her in this scene and it ends with her knocked out but with them having zero role to it. The mark of a completely failed right fight is that you could cut it and zero would change.

For another, while the Blue Man's new design is marginally better, it's still aggressively boring. You could swap it in for any of his minions' designs and save for the pants I doubt anyone would even notice. No chance of a personality transplant either, but I will say that possibly the only marginally nice thing to be said about this cinematic is that him stopping his grand plan just to dick around with some randos and then giving Sylvanas her soul back just to incapacitate her and let the Bland Gang deal with her is at least some characterization and I found it pretty funny.

As for the elephant in the room, everything regarding Sylvanas's lolredemption is fucking wretched from beginning to end. The soul split thing will always have been an agency stripping device and get out of jail free card, but the absolute most dire part about it is that it's also completely unnecessary and contradictory since all her Sad (TM) looks these last few cutscene show that she wasn't controlled in the first place, so what's the point? Unless of course, what he threw back at her was her IQ and she fell unconscious because the realization of her own crippling mental retardation was too much for her to hold. The entire premise of rewriting Sylvanas to have always been about trusting the least trustworthy man in the universe who didn't exist until five minutes ago was always a drama sinkhole, but to have her turn on him over him stating what was blatantly his motive, and not over torturing a gorillion souls is something else entirely. It takes a million being statistic to the next level. It satisfies absolutely no one - absolutely everyone who wanted any kind of even temporary enjoyment of beating a raid boss, something that Garrosh (PBUH) got, gets zilch as she is totally unharmed and undeterred and scheduled for an abysmal redemption. Everyone who wanted the character to regain her past characterization and die on her own terms, again like Garrosh, is shit out of luck - her past characterization was externally induced and it's actually this plot device the Blue Man chucked at her that will reveal her true personality, presumably as an Anduinist.

@VladlTutushkin Beer?

[snakeeyesma81]

Yes, plenty of casuals around. Discord happened.

Yea...discord happened after i quit. I still haven't really used it much. Does anyone use ventrilo anymore?


Also...can they REALLY stuff an Arthas redemption in here too? Seems like overkill. I mean...there's no penalty for anything anymore. Then again...religion isn't much different i guess. Repent and all is forgiven.

[dragonballgtz]

Was there any additional NPC dialogue after the cinematic? I'm not subbed to the game anymore so I can't check.

Also I'm guessing they will keep her around because "She has information about Zovaal's plans blah blah blah"

0/10 story

[TheFirstOnes]

I know some people like to say it's generic, and yeah it is...

Looks like a badass Mawsworn. But...that's why I love it so fucking much!

[Daevelian]

So basically the "worst case scenario" that people were in denial over all the way back in Legion has happened.

At least Garrosh went out with a bang (literally). Sylvy here was a mere whimper.

[TheFirstOnes]

He's the Ultimate Evil of WoW. He's wearing Armor that represents him as the ultimate Mawsworn ruler of Death, etc. Dude wants rule existence? Have him wear his signature armor, it's perfect! It's Dark, evil, menacing, and he looks and sounds badass! Much better than his beat down design from 9.0 to early 9.1.

[Trollokdamus]

There hasn't been a real good "oh yeah I like that" plot moment for me since Illidan said "No thanks" to Xe'ra.

Off-topic, but that plot moment actually made no sense. Illidan had always been about sacrificing whatever he could to achieve his goals, and yet when the time came to make the final sacrifice, his personal "freedom" somehow became more important to him than his life's goal. By rejecting Xe'ra's power and not becoming the ultimate weapon, Illidan imperiled the entire operation on Argus.

[TheFirstOnes]

Because what Illidan did was of his choice. Not of some damn holy being's limited views of the cosmos.

- - - Updated - - -

Because he takes the place as effectively the sole and most relevant baddie in the lore by retroactively being behind almost every single plot in WoW's meta-narrative through being the actual force influencing the Nathrezim (by proxy of being Denathrius' handler) and then some.

Also, you seem to be confused. The issue isn't whether Zovaal takes the Sigil himself or not. He could one-shot everyone and everything in the entire universe and I would still feel absolutely nothing. This isn't about his feats or his ability to accomplish anything. If your character's motivations are either ill-defined or just uninteresting, you are still a bad villain. If the way you convey your simplistic goal is dull, boring, and lacking in any personality, you are still a bad villain.

Nobody ever said, I dunno, Gul'dan is a deep and layered Shakespearean figure, but he's entertaining as shit when he does things. Sire Denathrius is another good example for this expansion. He has a certain charisma. The "intrigue" surrounding Zovaal is entirely relegated to his influence on the meta story and not his actual presentation, personality, or motivations surrounding his actions. He has all the power and all the cards but none of it means anything because by the end of the story, he will still have lost, and he will still have been deeply boring.

Similarly, nobody cares about how many times Zovaal has fucked us over. He could personally hijack my UI and I wouldn't give a shit if he kept being a dull walking turd only now he has a NEW HAT I mean helmet.

But again, he does not suffer as the biggest issue in this ending anyway.



There's degrees to things. Warcraft has always been schlocky on some level. This is a new elevation of schlock. Having low standards isn't the same as having none.

I always saw Zovaal as akin to a generic Satanic figure, or as someone like Darkseid. They're very similar in many ways tbh.

[Trollokdamus]

Because what Illidan did was of his choice. Not of some damn holy being's limited views of the cosmos.

That may be true, but Illidan's choice still made no sense in the context of his character. It contradicted everything he stood for.

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't know what people mean when they dislike it that hard. I have to say, as incredibly janky and cheap as the cinematic was, seeing the Warchief tell not just this throw-away grey raid boss, but also the entire moral framework of the last few terrible expansion plots he was stuck in to go fuck themselves, proclaim that he did nothing wrong and go out one last time on his own terms was unironically enjoyable. For it to end any other way would have been out of character and for once I don't think anyone can seriously argue Blizzard didn't capture both the spirit of his character and his appeal.

Press F(or the Horde) for Garrosh.

Oh, you mean the Sylvanas one? Dear fucking christ, where do I start?

For one, coming out of a raid fight entirely unscathed removes the entire point of making a character a raid boss. This was the case for Jaina, it is even more the case here because the players are literally right behind her in this scene and it ends with her knocked out but with them having zero role to it. The mark of a completely failed right fight is that you could cut it and zero would change.

For another, while the Blue Man's new design is marginally better, it's still aggressively boring. You could swap it in for any of his minions' designs and save for the pants I doubt anyone would even notice. No chance of a personality transplant either, but I will say that possibly the only marginally nice thing to be said about this cinematic is that him stopping his grand plan just to dick around with some randos and then giving Sylvanas her soul back just to incapacitate her and let the Bland Gang deal with her is at least some characterization and I found it pretty funny.

As for the elephant in the room, everything regarding Sylvanas's lolredemption is fucking wretched from beginning to end. The soul split thing will always have been an agency stripping device and get out of jail free card, but the absolute most dire part about it is that it's also completely unnecessary and contradictory since all her Sad (TM) looks these last few cutscene show that she wasn't controlled in the first place, so what's the point? Unless of course, what he threw back at her was her IQ and she fell unconscious because the realization of her own crippling mental retardation was too much for her to hold. The entire premise of rewriting Sylvanas to have always been about trusting the least trustworthy man in the universe who didn't exist until five minutes ago was always a drama sinkhole, but to have her turn on him over him stating what was blatantly his motive, and not over torturing a gorillion souls is something else entirely. It takes a million being statistic to the next level. It satisfies absolutely no one - absolutely everyone who wanted any kind of even temporary enjoyment of beating a raid boss, something that Garrosh (PBUH) got, gets zilch as she is totally unharmed and undeterred and scheduled for an abysmal redemption. Everyone who wanted the character to regain her past characterization and die on her own terms, again like Garrosh, is shit out of luck - her past characterization was externally induced and it's actually this plot device the Blue Man chucked at her that will reveal her true personality, presumably as an Anduinist.

@VladlTutushkin Beer?

Not to mention that she was totally oblivious of his clearly malicious motives and his link to Arthas despite the Mourneblades, despite Kel’Thuzad working for him and despite his whole style and aesthetic being based around torture, subjugation and death.

But it takes him literally putting on “Lich King like” helmet and saying “the word” to finally “tick” it in her head! Oh wait! He was a bad guy subjugator all along! How blind i was! Incredible!

Also on whom blame for genocide lies now? First it was shifted from Horde to Sylvanas, now she apparently no longer to blame? (I mean we all know how that will end with Thrall, Bolvar and Jaina being her “judges”.)

As for Tyrande… Boi oh boi… It will be either “she cannot forgive Sylvanas and we have to stop her” or “she forgives her and lets go of hate” and its even worse…

[Vakir]

Off-topic, but that plot moment actually made no sense. Illidan had always been about sacrificing whatever he could to achieve his goals, and yet when the time came to make the final sacrifice, his personal "freedom" somehow became more important to him than his life's goal. By rejecting Xe'ra's power and not becoming the ultimate weapon, Illidan imperiled the entire operation on Argus.

Yes, but Illidan is a hypocrite and an asshole. I like the character, I don't mean it is an insult. It's a fact in the context of his choices. The reason it works there (for me, anyway) as a course correction back to his WC3 self, and the reason I personally don't see it as a toothless redemption arc like some, is it's treated as a feature and not a bug.

Nobody absolves his shitty behavior and the two people closest to him say in no uncertain terms to...basically his last will and testament that they don't forgive him and he's still an asshole.

Illidan talked a big game about sacrifice at all costs, but he wasn't able to seal the deal for himself in the end, even though he sacrificed so many others, tons without their consent. That's what makes him an anti-hero/anti-villain rather than just a bland generic hero with an edgy aesthetic. If they kept the course with Xe'ra talking him up as a totally swell person, it would be character assassination in the opposite direction from TBC's bullshit.

Illidan WAS able to sacrifice in some contexts, like staying behind for Sargeras, taking the gift to use against the Legion, etc. but he was never willing to give up everything.

(Compare and contrast with..."this character's actions and agency never mattered because they were missing part of their soul." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

I always saw Zovaal as akin to a generic Satanic figure, or as someone like Darkseid. They're very similar in many ways tbh.

That's because that is his character function. You're factually right. But the bland utilitarian purpose behind a character doesn't need to be the beginning and the end of how they're presented.

Think the RedLetterMedia character test. Describe Zovaal for me without referring to his job, how he looks, or his role in the story.

[Triceron]

The story's so bad that I'm not even playing WoW and it makes me want to quit.