Night Elf Lands Blocked to Horde

[Hellspawn]

Given the in game dialogue majority of the Night Elves just are tired and want to be left alone, with Tyrande being one of the fringe cases.

Thats not really true, its more a split through the middle.

[Syegfryed]

At latest by the start of Vanilla it transitioned into more of a federate capacity, with Orgrimmar, as the central seat of government, with Warchief holding absolute authority over the individual members. That never changed, until Sylvanas left for her plot mandated Shadowlands starting position. And her 8.2.5 duel proves that basically everyone was either retarded, traitor or complicit, up to that point. IF the expansion was well written it could have explored such a dynamic. Or given us an actual faction war, which escalated to that point organically. But setting up Shadowlands was apparently more important than all fundamental aspects of decent storytelling.

If the expansion was well written actually using the factions values and the lore we had, Bfa would not even exist in the first place.

Nobody that write well and know wow lore could see what the bullshit presented and still go "yep lets to do it"

[Hellspawn]

I put it to you in these words.
If the punishment is going to make the Kaldorei learn better or the Horde really learn something and stop having to learn the same in 3 expansions.

Great with punishment.
But punishment is not going to accomplish either.

Night Elfs should not be just and plot device to teach the horde a lesson and then be happy tree elfs again.

The Horde has to face consequences for their murdering.

I make this clear I agree that the Horde is in Debt with the Kaldorei.
But at BFA it's a story of how we have to feel bad about being Horde. Feeling bad about having a warchief. Feeling bad about basically everything.

And that did not accomplish anything. It didn't make the Kaldorei Players feel better and it didn't make the Horde "learn" from their mistakes.


PS: If I really controlled the lore. the Horde was wounded and drained. There the pastures are greener. As much as the cinematic of cuerta wants to tell us that this world is dying.
Azeroth also dies in the Orc lands and apart from that the world hates them.

In other words, it is better to have "little grain" than "grain poisoned by the Forsaken."

Of course not, how would horde feeling bad about them selves make Night elfs or even players of Night Elfs happy?
No one in the Horde apologized to Night Elfs to what they done to them. They did not pay reparation or offered any help to rebuild the Night Elf nation.

The Horde feeling bald about their warchief was never about Night Elfs, it was entirely about telling a story about the Horde, like it or not.

[geco]

Night Elfs should not be just and plot device to teach the horde a lesson and then be happy tree elfs again.

The Horde has to face consequences for their murdering.


Of course not, how would horde feeling bad about them selves make Night elfs or even players of Night Elfs happy?
No one in the Horde apologized to Night Elfs to what they done to them. They did not pay reparation or offered any help to rebuild the Night Elf nation.

The Horde feeling bald about their warchief was never about Night Elfs, it was entirely about telling a story about the Horde, like it or not.

You are right.
But the way blizzard spells it. I'd rather they don't.
Why would the Night Warrior 2.0 be good?

[VladlTutushkin]

What that means to the future? nothing, anything will be neglected/ignored/retconed as the new expansion come up and new plots come

Like, a lot of stuff int he books is just completely ignored or straight up retconed, see the Sylvanas book with her inner monologue.



Elf fans are always the most hysterical, thinking everything is a sin committed to then

You keep telling yourself that while conveniently ignoring the sheer thermonuclear reaction that happened when Calia got introduced.

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Thats not really true, its more a split through the middle.

Which in itself sounds unrealistic. Was was going for how long? A year? Two? Countries managed to maintain conflicts for decades in various ways and havent dropped into defeatism or "man i rather just give up then fight another day". Especially after a genocide and continued unapologetic Horde behavior there shouldnt be THAT many pro-peace night elfs.

It would make more sense if Stormwind or the rest of Alliance tried to force them into peace, rather then them having some major anti-war group.

[sighy]

If the expansion was well written actually using the factions values and the lore we had, Bfa would not even exist in the first place.

Nobody that write well and know wow lore could see what the bullshit presented and still go "yep lets to do it"

There are potential ways the key plotpoints could have been achieved through use of basic logic and storytelling principles. It's the writer's job to solve the problems preventing them from having the payoffs they want. It's on the Director/Producer, if the core concept is fucked, which it was too, but the writing seriously did not help.

[shoc]

You are naive to think that anything that happens in the lore will reflect meaningfully in game.

It will be ignored for 2 years only to be retconned via the text description of a follower mission.

[Syegfryed]

You keep telling yourself that while conveniently ignoring the sheer thermonuclear reaction that happened when Calia got introduced..

That is at least expected when you get a character from the opposite faction trying to be the leader of the race you play

oh wait, "elf fans" don't get that because both of their leaders are unlikable are are alive since vanila, a luxury not many races have

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There are potential ways the key plotpoints could have been achieved through use of basic logic and storytelling principles.

Yeah, not making Sylvanus warchief and having the alliance attack first, that alone could solve so many problems

But no, they just went straight up to mop 2.0

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Night Elfs should not be just and plot device to teach the horde a lesson and then be happy tree elfs again.

>implying the horde was not used as a plot device just to tell the players how war is bad again

Come on.

The Horde has to face consequences for their murdering.

The horde will face shit, because one, no one can "force" then consequences, and two, they keep getting fucked by the writers.

Of course not, how would horde feeling bad about them selves make Night elfs or even players of Night Elfs happy?

Why they should be happy when no one is fucking happy about it? it was a clusterfuck that everybody got fucked, no one liked bfa, just because "elf fans" scream louder don't mean they got worse

No one in the Horde apologized to Night Elfs to what they done to them. They did not pay reparation or offered any help to rebuild the Night Elf nation.

Thrall did apologize, do you wnt the players to do so? what reparations will be offered if it was Sylvanas doing?

The Horde feeling bald about their warchief was never about Night Elfs, it was entirely about telling a story about the Horde, like it or not.

The writers wanting to tell the story of how war is bad and in the process, using horde as retards for plot device is not rly something to point at as "horde story".

[cparle87]

As long as they don't plan to do a revamp it does not matter anyways.

If they revamp the Zones and actually redo leveling for individual races (which I doubt), Ashenvale maybe just turns into the second main zone (with Hyjal as starting Zone)... just like Darkshore was before that (would be a pretty big second zone).
Horde left Ashenvale after Cataclysm and all their resource extraction operations were removed, so there would be no reason for the Horde anyway. (Unless they attack again of course)



I was actually thinking about that some days ago, would be pretty cool. It works particularly well with how the Night Elfs are portraited as defenders of their land.

You mean as the ones who attacked the orcs first without even talking to them because they were cutting down trees for lumber to build their homes, complete with siccing a demigod on them? And then later unilaterally called off a peaceful trade agreement after the orcs were framed by the Legion?

[Varitok]

It means nothing, because we'll get Topper Mcnabbs book about how its the horde blocking the night elves, from his point of view.

[VladlTutushkin]

You mean as the ones who attacked the orcs first without even talking to them because they were cutting down trees for lumber to build their homes, complete with siccing a demigod on them? And then later unilaterally called off a peaceful trade agreement after the orcs were framed by the Legion?

You mean how orcs kept raiding their land even when they had a trade deal and peace treaty for years and they only broke the treaty when Twilight Hammer dressed as Horde brutally killed and skinned a peaceful druid delegation?

[Combatbutler]

In the new Exploring Kalimdor book, Velen tells Zekhan and Rexxar that even as explorers and cartographers, they are not allowed into Night Elf lands "for clear reasons".

What does this spell out for any future expansion that takes place on EK or Kalimdor? We have yet to see an event that would really convince them to let the Horde players into their lands, and it runs against the ongoing theme of neutrality that seems like it will be continued in the future. See: Calia being groomed for the position of Forsaken queen, who likely would let Alliance in her lands.

Is this just a reason to hide Night Elf zone development from lore, or will this Night Elf blockade continue into the future?

It means absolutely nothing, it is lip service nothing more.

[mysticx]

I mean, an assload of stuff is said in the books that isn't even vaguely referenced in the game so I'd bet nothing, and not at all.

Pretty much this, it will be handled as thoroughly as it was when the Horde got defeated in the "Wolfheart"-book in Cataclysm, in other words: Not at all.

In-game, Ashenvale will still be a Horde-wrecked (And -infested hellhole), and that throwaway line in a lore book will be all the "They're totally getting their lands back" we're likely to get, until it gets updated for the Horde's inevitable next invasion, that is.

[VladlTutushkin]

Pretty much this, it will be handled as thoroughly as it was when the Horde got defeated in the "Wolfheart"-book in Cataclysm, in other words: Not at all.

In-game, Ashenvale will still be a Horde-wrecked (And -infested hellhole), and that throwaway line in a lore book will be all the "They're totally getting their lands back" we're likely to get, until it gets updated for the Horde's inevitable next invasion, that is.

And then horde will again claim that "they are the real victims here" and lets ignore the whole plot of them kicking Alliance left and right like they are some school bully.

[baskev]

That still wouldn't justify Teldrazzil. Because the Kaldorei surrendered. There is a huge distance between killing Military and Military leaders with killing Civilians.
Not to mention that if there is an excuse that justifies Teldrazzil then there is no reason to reveal us. Sylvanas did nothing worse than Teldrazzil later.

What they should have done in any case is to show that Sylvanas and had all the leaders grabbed by the balls. Or even easier not to do all that Teldrazzil shit. Remove the two initial accessories and voila.
Sylvanas is not "bad" until she uses mind control.

No it would not. I said as a example. Not the definitive answer :S. Man people on forums/internet/real world these days. I also did not say that it would justify it. I said they could fixxed the bad story.

So to be clear ( because apperently the word example does not mean what i think anymore).
They could have made the start of the war less horde is insane/evil again. By making some suggestive missions for the horde. Where alliance ( or maybe planted evidence by sylvannas) attacks several horde stuff. Burned down a few schools. Set of some bombs etc.

Teldrassil would still be bad. But the catalyst that set of the war could have been more grey. instead of horde bad, zug zug. ( and this comes from a allaince player).

What they should have done in any case is to show that Sylvanas and had all the leaders grabbed by the balls. Or even easier not to do all that Teldrazzil shit. Remove the two initial accessories and voila.
Sylvanas is not "bad" until she uses mind control.

Lol that would be even worse story. A mind game, moving of pawns. that is what would have made it all great. And she was bad before...Hell even genn felt sorry for all the undead in arathi that died.

[Soon-TM]

At this point, I really doubt that nelfs have even the necessary manpower to enforce that blockade. Not that they need to worry about the bunch of Alliance sycophants and/or idiots sitting in Org anyway, and at all rates the Scourge running amok everywhere looks like a far more pressing issue.

[Ardenaso]

obviously the travel ban will be overturned soon after Tyrande also goes to follow the holy religion of Anduinism and she will also share love and peace with Baine and Thrall

[geco]

No it would not. I said as a example. Not the definitive answer :S. Man people on forums/internet/real world these days. I also did not say that it would justify it. I said they could fixxed the bad story.

So to be clear ( because apperently the word example does not mean what i think anymore).
They could have made the start of the war less horde is insane/evil again. By making some suggestive missions for the horde. Where alliance ( or maybe planted evidence by sylvannas) attacks several horde stuff. Burned down a few schools. Set of some bombs etc.

Teldrassil would still be bad. But the catalyst that set of the war could have been more grey. instead of horde bad, zug zug. ( and this comes from a allaince player).



Lol that would be even worse story. A mind game, moving of pawns. that is what would have made it all great. And she was bad before...Hell even genn felt sorry for all the undead in arathi that died.

I mean there's no way Teldrassil is gray in wow. I mean, the only way to be "gray" is for the Alliance to do something this horrible first. But that would make the Alliance absurdly bad. (So we're on the same thing)

We could go as far as trying to say that the Alliance makes a renegade genocium but it is still clearly evil. (Although maybe not for some Blizzard writer)

[Hellspawn]

You mean as the ones who attacked the orcs first without even talking to them because they were cutting down trees for lumber to build their homes, complete with siccing a demigod on them? And then later unilaterally called off a peaceful trade agreement after the orcs were framed by the Legion?

No I was talking about the Orcs that raided Ashenvale at least twice, happily murdered civilians from Ashenvale to Teldrassil without any remorse and steal resources without asking and blight the land with their allies.

To think that Orcs have any moral high ground or if all of that was in any way morally gray and I'm including the Cata stuff here. You are either a troll or you have a very distorted world view.

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At this point, I really doubt that nelfs have even the necessary manpower to enforce that blockade. Not that they need to worry about the bunch of Alliance sycophants and/or idiots sitting in Org anyway, and at all rates the Scourge running amok everywhere looks like a far more pressing issue.

They lost very little military compared to the Horde.

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The horde will face shit, because one, no one can "force" then consequences, and two, they keep getting fucked by the writers.

Exactly and that's why I don't see why Nelfs should forgive them or let them enter their land (and that's actually already a consequence).

[Soon-TM]

They lost very little military compared to the Horde.

Source?