Do Healers have to DPS now during down time in between heals?

[Specialka]

Then why are there multiple periods of time when nobody receives damage? And during wotlk, you really only ever needed a Paladin to spam the tanks in the worst case, as they were able to heal both at the same time equally strong.

After the Beacon Nerf, it took me way until Paladins becoming melee battle healers to love them again tbh. Original Beacon was so fucking hillarious.

Though I'm willing to just admit defeat: All I ask for you is too explain to me rationally how what you say, with everyone in this thread hating your guts and not being willing to give you the benefit of a doubt anymore, is more credible then multiple examples of actual footage which debunk your claims.

And to explain to me how you solve the issue that what you demand would mean that the skill floor and the skill ceiling for a healer would be identical, which would actually mean every single healer has to play their role perfectly to even successfully finish content. Including the issue of gearing. How would you prevent that better geared healers with higher geared parties have open gcds for dps spells?

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Can you debunk anything I stated about the healer role in this thread then?

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Also generally shields being better than direct heals because they can't overheal. Wasn't that the actual reason for the disc rewamp? I remember that many healers complained over how much Disc was able to spam the group with shields and how it left them with less to heal.

No, because I never said that you were wrong or that he was. But as I said, you are so triggered, while accusing the other side of being triggered, I could resist showing you the kettle.

[kenn9530]

Then why are there multiple periods of time when nobody receives damage? And during wotlk, you really only ever needed a Paladin to spam the tanks in the worst case, as they were able to heal both at the same time equally strong.

After the Beacon Nerf, it took me way until Paladins becoming melee battle healers to love them again tbh. Original Beacon was so fucking hillarious.

Though I'm willing to just admit defeat: All I ask for you is too explain to me rationally how what you say, with everyone in this thread hating your guts and not being willing to give you the benefit of a doubt anymore, is more credible then multiple examples of actual footage which debunk your claims.

And to explain to me how you solve the issue that what you demand would mean that the skill floor and the skill ceiling for a healer would be identical, which would actually mean every single healer has to play their role perfectly to even successfully finish content. Including the issue of gearing. How would you prevent that better geared healers with higher geared parties have open gcds for dps spells?

You are watching a kill where everybody is aiming to play perfectly and minimising the damage as much as possible, you have no idea on what it actually takes to make that happen, especially in a fight that can last up to 15 minutes, as soon as the tanks take damage they are almost instantly topped up, if healers were to do damage they wouldnt be able to heal the tank intime.

It only takes a small adjustments to increase the difficulty enough to make it so healers no longer have time to do any damage, you just will never understand since you have not done enough content to make any sort of comparrison. You have never once debunked anything, healing not being able to do damage has worked in the past.

Care to link some of your own logs? Very curious of a lot of your claims here.
And yes, i'm fully expecting some bullshit excuse so lets hear it

i have already posted my character a few pages back, im a casual player now but have done realm first and CE, and pugged 8/10 mythic CN while doing the bare min. The content is just plain boring, i can grasp the mechanics of a fight very quickly and it bores me after 100 attempts on a boss fight when other players constantly make mistakes.

[Diaphin]

No, because I never said that you were wrong or that he was. But as I said, you are so triggered, while accusing the other side of being triggered, I could resist showing you the kettle.

You totally crushed me like a sigma male, I bet you can't save yourself irl from people being attracted to you and looking up to you as a leader due to your sharp debating skills. Do you perhabs have a debate channel, a column or a show? Because like, oh boy, with your skills you could play with the big boys. Your wife must be proud of you. May I ask you which elite university you must have visited to garner such insane rhetorical skills? Are your books available on kindle?

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You are watching a kill where everybody is aiming to play perfectly and minimising the damage as much as possible, you have no idea on what it actually takes to make that happen, especially in a fight that can last up to 15 minutes, as soon as the tanks take damage they are almost instantly topped up, if healers were to do damage they wouldnt be able to heal the tank intime.

Then why are there so many periods in fights like lk heroic and sinestra where there are observable down times with very low damage intaken by the entire group?

It only takes a small adjustments to increase the difficulty enough to make it so healers no longer have time to do any damage, you just will never understand since you have not done enough content to make any sort of comparrison. You have never once debunked anything, healing not being able to do damage has worked in the past.

Than you can explain to me the flaws in my theory that what you demand would mean to make the skill floor for content the same as the skill ceiling.

[Blackrunner01]

I just did a +15 with a druid healer who used convoke on CD, as a heal. He did 30k dmg on Droman.

This is the healing meters for the dungeon.

https://i.imgur.com/a6P0HP0.png

How is anyone gonna argue that this guy should not be doing damage?

[Diaphin]

I just did a +15 with a druid healer who used convoke on CD, as a heal. He did 30k dmg on Droman.

This is the healing meters for the dungeon.

https://i.imgur.com/a6P0HP0.png

How is anyone gonna argue that this guy should not be doing damage?

Because, you see, Edwynn Van Cleef was actually a much harder encounter than that pescy easy +15 dungeon and during that first kill the healer did not utilize dps spells. I learned that today from a world class player.

[Specialka]

You totally crushed me like a sigma male, I bet you can't save yourself irl from people being attracted to you and looking up to you as a leader due to your sharp debating skills. Do you perhabs have a debate channel, a column or a show? Because like, oh boy, with your skills you could play with the big boys. Your wife must be proud of you. May I ask you which elite university you must have visited to garner such insane rhetorical skills? Are your books available on kindle?

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Then why are there so many periods in fights like lk heroic and sinestra where there are observable down times with very low damage intaken by the entire group?



Than you can explain to me the flaws in my theory that what you demand would mean to make the skill floor for content the same as the skill ceiling.

Thank your for proving my point

[kenn9530]

I just did a +15 with a druid healer who used convoke on CD, as a heal. He did 30k dmg on Droman.

This is the healing meters for the dungeon.

https://i.imgur.com/a6P0HP0.png

How is anyone gonna argue that this guy should not be doing damage?

Noone is arguing against healers doing damage, its the current gameplay design that is forcing that gameplay or at least making it expected that many healers dont like and it sacrifices actual healing content to include it.

Then why are there so many periods in fights like lk heroic and sinestra where there are observable down times with very low damage intaken by the entire group?



Than you can explain to me the flaws in my theory that what you demand would mean to make the skill floor for content the same as the skill ceiling.

Not every fight has constant damage from start to finish, but when healer damage is useless and mana is actually important you are not going to do damage, on sinestra and such tanks still had to get spam healed, again you have not done the content so your opinion is useless.

You have no idea on skill ceiling or anything, healers are finishing fights with high mana currently so there is obviously not enough incomming damage to put a strain on healers, if you are not oom at the end of a fight then you are overhealing it or the content is designed poorly.

[Diaphin]

Thank your for proving my point

May I ask you something: If I'm acting triggered, how often did you had to call mental health services on your favorite youtubers because you were concerned they suffer a mental breakdown?

Also, care to explain to me how I act triggered? Like, you have proven to be a smart, non-virgin sigmar male, so debate me bro.

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Noone is arguing against healers doing damage, its the current gameplay design that is forcing that gameplay or at least making it expected that many healers dont like and it sacrifices actual healing content to include it.



Not every fight has constant damage from start to finish, but when healer damage is useless and mana is actually important you are not going to do damage, on sinestra and such tanks still had to get spam healed, again you have not done the content so your opinion is useless.

You have no idea on skill ceiling or anything, healers are finishing fights with high mana currently so there is obviously not enough incomming damage to put a strain on healers, if you are not oom at the end of a fight then you are overhealing it or the content is designed poorly.

Can you provide data on that btw?

[Blackrunner01]

Noone is arguing against healers doing damage, its the current gameplay design that is forcing that gameplay or at least making it expected that many healers dont like and it sacrifices actual healing content to include it.



Not every fight has constant damage from start to finish, but when healer damage is useless and mana is actually important you are not going to do damage, on sinestra and such tanks still had to get spam healed, again you have not done the content so your opinion is useless.

You have no idea on skill ceiling or anything, healers are finishing fights with high mana currently so there is obviously not enough incomming damage to put a strain on healers, if you are not oom at the end of a fight then you are overhealing it or the content is designed poorly.

So a better solution would be making it so the bottom 90% of healer doing appropriate content would have to do nothing, but heal and while the top 10% doing appropriate content could sneak in some damage spells every now and again?

[kenn9530]

May I ask you something: If I'm acting triggered, how often did you had to call mental health services on your favorite youtubers because you were concerned they suffer a mental breakdown?

Also, care to explain to me how I act triggered? Like, you have proven to be a smart, non-virgin sigmar male, so debate me bro.

You act triggered because you give comments like a 5 year old child and throw insults every other post, because noone is accepting the opinion you have.

My opinion is very reasonable, make content just a little bit harder for healers so they either dont have time to do damage or can only do it at certain points during a fight, there is nothing about wanting that would make the content overall any harder, it would just give healers a much more enjoyable gameplay experience.

So a better solution would be making it so the bottom 90% of healer doing appropriate content would have to do nothing, but heal and while the top 10% doing appropriate content could sneak in some damage spells every now and again?

Nothing would really change if the content was more leaning towards groups taking more damage so the healer had to actually focus on healing, it would just give the healers better gameplay, if a healer likes to do damage and heal they could still have that option but play a paladin/disc or mist for the best option.

[Specialka]

May I ask you something: If I'm acting triggered, how often did you had to call mental health services on your favorite youtubers because you were concerned they suffer a mental breakdown?

Also, care to explain to me how I act triggered? Like, you have proven to be a smart, non-virgin sigmar male, so debate me bro.

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Can you provide data on that btw?

You can't debate with someone without being aggressive, sister. That is how you are triggered. You can't stand someone having a different opinion than yours. I find than funny, but I also pity you.

And I do not follow Youtuber and such. I have a better use of my spare time.

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You act triggered because you give comments like a 5 year old child and throw insults every other post, because noone is accepting the opinion you have.

My opinion is very reasonable, make content just a little bit harder for healers so they either dont have time to do damage or can only do it at certain points during a fight, there is nothing about wanting that would make the content overall any harder, it would just give healers a much more enjoyable gameplay experience.

I do not also totally agree with you. The lich king was not a hard fight compare to now. It was when it was current but that's it. And if you make the content "harder", that also means you can't pass it if the heal fucked up. Not an ideal solution either.

[Diaphin]

Not every fight has constant damage from start to finish, but when healer damage is useless and mana is actually important you are not going to do damage, on sinestra and such tanks still had to get spam healed, again you have not done the content so your opinion is useless.

How does increasing mana costs and enforcing down times in which healers are not casting anything which contributes to the encounter better design though? I'm not as good as you, so I don't understand this right now. And I remember that the reason healer dps was increased as actually due top complaints from healers that open world and solo content took too long for healers, so Blizzard adjustet it to allow healers to better play through that content without having to respec, am I wrong here?

You have no idea on skill ceiling or anything, healers are finishing fights with high mana currently so there is obviously not enough incomming damage to put a strain on healers, if you are not oom at the end of a fight then you are overhealing it or the content is designed poorly.

Explain it to me please because I don't understand it yet. From how I understand the idea of skill floor and skill ceiling, the skill floor would be the minimum skill requirements for a healer to successfully heal a group through a given encounter. Because damage is finite and healing is inheritly reactive, I understood it that coming closer to the skill ceiling means to use healing efficently enough that you reach your goal of keeping the group alive with as little ressources invested into that as possible, which means that with increasing skill and gearing, you have actually higher amounts of downtime in a given encounter. Where is my flaw in that train of thought? Like, I'm very open to rethink my ideas of healing when you can explain it.

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You can't debate with someone without being aggressive, sister. That is how you are triggered. You can't stand someone having a different opinion than yours. I find than funny, but I also pity you.

He is not having a different opinion though, for most of the time he is just plain lying. Like when he claimed that older encounters had no healing downtime and I posted him footage of high end fights with massive periods of low incoming damage.

And I do not follow Youtuber and such. I have a better use of my spare time.

Like stalking women on MMO-Champion? Thats so sigma bro. Like, you haven't post on this thread up until now specifically to reply to and insult me without adding constructive opinions to the topic after I triggered you in another thread.

[Specialka]

How does increasing mana costs and enforcing down times in which healers are not casting anything which contributes to the encounter better design though? I'm not as good as you, so I don't understand this right now. And I remember that the reason healer dps was increased as actually due top complaints from healers that open world and solo content took too long for healers, so Blizzard adjustet it to allow healers to better play through that content without having to respec, am I wrong here?



Explain it to me please because I don't understand it yet. From how I understand the idea of skill floor and skill ceiling, the skill floor would be the minimum skill requirements for a healer to successfully heal a group through a given encounter. Because damage is finite and healing is inheritly reactive, I understood it that coming closer to the skill ceiling means to use healing efficently enough that you reach your goal of keeping the group alive with as little ressources invested into that as possible, which means that with increasing skill and gearing, you have actually higher amounts of downtime in a given encounter. Where is my flaw in that train of thought? Like, I'm very open to rethink my ideas of healing when you can explain it.

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He is not having a different opinion though, for most of the time he is just plain lying. Like when he claimed that older encounters had no healing downtime and I posted him footage of high end fights with massive periods of low incoming damage.



Like stalking women on MMO-Champion? Thats so sigma bro. Like, you haven't post on this thread up until now specifically to reply to and insult me without adding constructive opinions to the topic after I triggered you in another thread.

You did not watch carefully enough. I did post a while back near the start of the thread if I remember well. Like I said, you are the one triggered because you can't stand others opinion especially if they are men. Funny but pitiful . Grow up.

[kenn9530]

How does increasing mana costs and enforcing down times in which healers are not casting anything which contributes to the encounter better design though? I'm not as good as you, so I don't understand this right now. And I remember that the reason healer dps was increased as actually due top complaints from healers that open world and solo content took too long for healers, so Blizzard adjustet it to allow healers to better play through that content without having to respec, am I wrong here?



Explain it to me please because I don't understand it yet. From how I understand the idea of skill floor and skill ceiling, the skill floor would be the minimum skill requirements for a healer to successfully heal a group through a given encounter. Because damage is finite and healing is inheritly reactive, I understood it that coming closer to the skill ceiling means to use healing efficently enough that you reach your goal of keeping the group alive with as little ressources invested into that as possible, which means that with increasing skill and gearing, you have actually higher amounts of downtime in a given encounter. Where is my flaw in that train of thought? Like, I'm very open to rethink my ideas of healing when you can explain it.

Healers are always casting something, they are never doing nothing, how is doing a little bit of damage more interesting that actually doing the role you wanted to play. In content since WotlK healers would always be healing no matter how much damage was incomming so there was no healing downtime, it was even more so relevant to spam heal when you had the legendery healing mace to proc the shields.

Top healers dont do open world and solo as a healer they spec dps, so where are all these complaints about healers wanting to do damage, players wanting something and it actually being a good thing are not the same thing.

If fights are tuned more for actual healing then all the time healers waste on damage would be spent actually healing, the fight wouldnt really change other than healers would actually get to do the job they wanted to play as, then you can at some point bring in 1 less healer so healers still have a challenge when you get more gear. Not every fight has to be an all out aoe healing intensive encounter but its good to have them.

[Diaphin]

Healers are always casting something, they are never doing nothing, how is doing a little bit of damage more interesting that actually doing the role you wanted to play. In content since WotlK healers would always be healing no matter how much damage was incomming so there was no healing downtime.

Yeah, but even if the damage is small, which it is not right now, there isn't really a good alternative to casting a heal outside of overhealing and doing nothing. I mean, I hope you would aggree with me that the times of enforced passive downtimes to kickstart mana reg are not something we would want to return to. There are shields but they actually decrease the required amount of healing. Which is why Disc was rewamped from a shield centric healer into a dps healer to begin with. Then there is the issue that already half of the healing specs having strong synergies between their healing and dps toolkit and requiring dps to optimally heal.

Top healers dont do open world and solo as a healer they spec dps, so where are all these complaints about healers wanting to do damage, players wanting something and it actually being a good thing are not the same thing.

Care to explain how does it harm healers though?

If fights are tuned more for actual healing then all the time healers waste on damage would be spent actually healing, the fight wouldnt really change other than healers would actually get to do the job they wanted to play as, then you can at some point bring in 1 less healer so healers still have a challenge when you get more gear. Not every fight has to be an all out aoe healing intensive encounter but its good to have them.

They are tuned towards healing and the difficulty spiked over the last few years because Blizzard wants to make a big event out of every single world first race. The problem and you confirmed it is that damage does not happen evenly but in spikes and that besides healing classes which utilize dps skills to synergize with their healing capabilities, not every healer has to heal a ton at any time. Plus, there is the issue of too high healing requirements balanced around top end players, which would mean world first raiders and people who push the highest keys, healing would be insanely gatekept through its skill floor.

[Rageonit]

May I ask you something: If I'm acting triggered, how often did you had to call mental health services on your favorite youtubers because you were concerned they suffer a mental breakdown?
Also, care to explain to me how I act triggered? Like, you have proven to be a smart, non-virgin sigmar male, so debate me bro.

My god, I so want to hug you man, you're like my 5 yo son with better vocabulary Come here and let me ruffle you just a bit, cause you're pure gold

[Diaphin]

My god, I so want to hug you man, you're like my 5 yo son with better vocabulary Come here and let me ruffle you just a bit, cause you're pure gold

Fuck...dad? Is that you? I always knew you would come back from that screening of Phantom Menace back in 1999 I knew it!

[kenn9530]

Yeah, but even if the damage is small, which it is not right now, there isn't really a good alternative to casting a heal outside of overhealing and doing nothing. I mean, I hope you would aggree with me that the times of enforced passive downtimes to kickstart mana reg are not something we would want to return to. There are shields but they actually decrease the required amount of healing. Which is why Disc was rewamped from a shield centric healer into a dps healer to begin with. Then there is the issue that already half of the healing specs having strong synergies between their healing and dps toolkit and requiring dps to optimally heal.



Care to explain how does it harm healers though?



They are tuned towards healing and the difficulty spiked over the last few years because Blizzard wants to make a big event out of every single world first race. The problem and you confirmed it is that damage does not happen evenly but in spikes and that besides healing classes which utilize dps skills to synergize with their healing capabilities, not every healer has to heal a ton at any time. Plus, there is the issue of too high healing requirements balanced around top end players, which would mean world first raiders and people who push the highest keys, healing would be insanely gatekept through its skill floor.

Gameplay is more interesting when you are getting pushed to the limit of your class, over time you gain gear and the content gets easier so at that point you can go with less healers and more dps so healers still maintain a challange but the content is cleared even faster so its a win win is all situations.

Why would you do solo content as a healer, it takes longer so you just waste your time when as a dps you can do it in half the time.

Healers just want content that actually challenges healing skill, not having plenty of time to do some minor damage, i want the mythic raids to be much harder than they currently are, they are way too easy and cleared too fast, it should not be able to be cleared until most players are in almost the best gear they can get. Currently the game cant even motivate me to play because it gives me nothing.

[Rubim]

You can easily ramp up raid wide damage just enough to make it so healers dont really have time to do any damage, its worked in the past where there has been plenty of incoming raid damage so it can easily work today.



And thats just another problem to the gameplay design, it would force a shaman into a specific covenant and using a dps legendery so they could bring enough damage and have free gcds to heal, if healer damage was removed altogether then you would just not be able to push past a certain key, you dont get anything from really high keys so what does it matter what the cap on clearing one is.

Currently healers can do some damage but that actually being a good gameplay design is another thing altogether.

Worked in the past on specific scenarios.

Also Tank Damage was not important as well. You can bet all tanks loved TD or Pandaria because of the absurd tank damage.

But the second part is a problem to debate, healers doing damage helps with WQ and other contents in the game. They should kill things at a reasonable speed.

It's extremelly hard to balance what you want with all the other pieces of the game. Its not about a good or bad design. I dont know how you can still fail to see that you're wrong about past expansions.

There was never a moment in wow where all healers on your group were needed to cast a healing every single gcd trough the whole fight. You've talked about scenarios of people that were doing a specific thing, aka: Healing Tank on this specific boss with this specific mechanic.

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Gameplay is more interesting when you are getting pushed to the limit of your class, over time you gain gear and the content gets easier so at that point you can go with less healers and more dps so healers still maintain a challange but the content is cleared even faster so its a win win is all situations.

Why would you do solo content as a healer, it takes longer so you just waste your time when as a dps you can do it in half the time.

Healers just want content that actually challenges healing skill, not having plenty of time to do some minor damage, i want the mythic raids to be much harder than they currently are, they are way too easy and cleared too fast, it should not be able to be cleared until most players are in almost the best gear they can get. Currently the game cant even motivate me to play because it gives me nothing.

You`re being pushed to your limit when you have to DPS and have the necessary output to heal Hakkar on a +24 Tyrannical. You're still missing your point about that.

Doing 30k HPS for some parts on a 5 man dungeon is pretty impressive for me.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...3&type=healing

Damage per second without tank damage on that fight was 10k with spikes to up 30k per second.

[kenn9530]

snip

Its just a simple fact in past expansions that healers doing damage was useless and detremental to actually healing.

Its not hard to balance at all, its been done in previous expansions with no issues where healers would only heal and be active 100% of the time.

Doing damage as a healer is not good gameplay, it actually screws up the whole balance of the game because you only bring healers who can do good damage, as a paladin is the only healer you can do massive dps and hps at the same time with no downsides as the class is built around instant casts and rarely hard cast.