FFXIV Spoiler thread

[ippollite]

Hey everyone, have you heard about the heat death of the universe and the literally tiniest brief age of stars? Have you ever pondered on this and fell into nihilism and despair and not thought "Holy shit! i live in that brief moment during the time of stars prior to the heat death of the universe!!!??!"

I mean, its fine if you did. We are, as a species (particularly as individuals) weird as all hell. That's fine. We arent all going to go 'oooh! isnt it amazing that not only we won the egg and spoon race to literally exist, but that we should exist right at this moment....'. But, have you seen the cosmic timeline? We are literally a zygote swimming around in amniotic fluid before the reality of even our... i really want to say 'teenage years' but for some reason 'gestation' seems more appropriate.

These devs seem to think far too... hopefully about our future. All we needed to do was invite Meteion to the infinite monkey cage podcast. She'd have no chance. Heck introduce her to brian cox as he happily explains all this like a golden retriever puppy. The ae are... aetherically compromised.

Here you go:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA

[Katchii]

Hey everyone, have you heard about the heat death of the universe and the literally tiniest brief age of stars? Have you ever pondered on this and fell into nihilism and despair and not thought "Holy shit! i live in that brief moment during the time of stars prior to the heat death of the universe!!!??!"

I mean, its fine if you did. We are, as a species (particularly as individuals) weird as all hell. That's fine. We arent all going to go 'oooh! isnt it amazing that not only we won the egg and spoon race to literally exist, but that we should exist right at this moment....'. But, have you seen the cosmic timeline? We are literally a zygote swimming around in amniotic fluid before the reality of even our... i really want to say 'teenage years' but for some reason 'gestation' seems more appropriate.

These devs seem to think far too... hopefully about our future. All we needed to do was invite Meteion to the infinite monkey cage podcast. She'd have no chance. Heck introduce her to brian cox as he happily explains all this like a golden retriever puppy. The ae are... aetherically compromised.

Here you go:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA

Nice blog. What's this have to do with FFXIV?

[Ghost of Cow]

Nice blog. What's this have to do with FFXIV?

Well, considering that the concept of "the universe will end so nothing matters" was a big part of UT, it's fairly relevant.

Of course, the concept is so difficult to relate to that it's equally nonsensical in-game as it was in that post!

[ippollite]

Both of you are totally fair. Its a bit...

But, there is something thats been bothering me since i met hermes (and the ae for some reason retriggered the exact same concerns). I dont want to fully commit to it before i finish though. By my reckoning (looking at grims vod, including dungeon and trial ive still got about 2-3 hours to go (and 3 scions to go)). And in shb that puts us somewhere around the intro to hythlodaeus. So im expecting we'll be getting another payoff soon that will perhaps alter my perspective a bit.

[Thoughtcrime]

But, there is something thats been bothering me since i met hermes (and the ae for some reason retriggered the exact same concerns).

I was going to bring up Hermes at some point as he's one of those characters I want to dig into properly, he worked for me in some ways but I get why he is overwhelmingly written off as a nut job and I'm honestly not sure where I stand in relation to him without replaying EW.

In some respects I find him analogous to Ilberd, another character who didn't quite resonate with the audience, broadly written off as crazy but that I see as having strong moral conviction and the courage to see that through to it's conclusion wherever that might lead even unto his own death. (This isn't an endorsement for either character's actions.)

Hermes is of course intended to be a tragic figure, and his position in the centre of frame holding Meteion in the final screenshot of the credit roll implies his importance to the story and it's themes so it's interesting to me that most people don't seem to care about or discuss his character at all.

[Ghost of Cow]

Hermes is of course intended to be a tragic figure, and his position in the centre of frame holding Meteion in the final screenshot of the credit roll implies his importance to the story and it's themes so it's interesting to me that most people don't seem to care about or discuss his character at all.

I think that's because some people just have trouble relating to him. And other characters in EW, for that matter. Even Emet-Selch calls out Hermes for his sophistry during the MSQ, because his entire schtick is stupid BS.

So much of the driving force behind the actions of characters in EW just doesn't resonate with me. Extreme edgelord shit like, "If you judge the worthiness of creations, then I'll judge all mankind!" or "The universe is gonna end one day so we'll just kill ourselves I guess."

At least the dragons had a relatable story behind their despair. A lot of the other stuff was just really bad fanfic level.

[Lane]

I didn't like Hermes. I also think that Amon was his core personality. You not only see that all of Hermes' dissatisfaction is directed outward rather than at himself when he's the odd one out (despite his supposed self-loathing), but then he clings to his Amon identity to the extent he refuses to relinquish it upon death.

I also didn't get tragedy from him. I'm not saying that wasn't the writer's intention, I can only assume he was meant to be yet another sympathetic villain based on how he's shown in the credits, but he flipped from empathetic to nihilist (and that's being generous) too quickly. It's more reasonable to believe deep down that's always who he was beneath the facade of Hermes.

He was in the wrong line of work, subverted the rules that led to world ending destruction not only on Etheirys but throughout the universe, and decided if creations that slaughter indiscriminately aren't allowed to live then apparently no one else is either. I guess he had more in common with the lykaon than anyone thought. :P

I've seen some people say they relate to him based on how he's presented in early Elpis, basically an overly empathetic outsider, but beyond that I don't see much discussion about him. Nihilism isn't a particularly compelling motivation.

[Ghost of Cow]

I also didn't get tragedy from him. I'm not saying that wasn't the writer's intention, I can only assume he was meant to be yet another sympathetic villain based on how he's shown in the credits, but he flipped from empathetic to nihilist (and that's being generous) too quickly. It's more reasonable to believe deep down that's always who he was beneath the facade of Hermes.

Given that they make a point of having Emet-Selch call his nonsense sophistry, I wonder if the writers fully intended to convey to the viewer that Hermes was simply off his rocker at the time. That you weren't supposed to relate to him, because his position was simply edgelord insanity.

I know people can get defensive about these things, but it really is possible for writers to create characters that you're supposed to dislike and not relate to. It doesn't mean the writing was bad if that was their intent.

[ippollite]

The funny thing is, hermes initially struck me as empathetic and a bit emo, but the further into elpis i got, the more you notice that he completely lacks emotions. Well, completely might be a teensy stretch... to put it more carefully, he is hyper-rational to the point where even basic emotionality and expression are to be disected, understood and compartmemtalised. And with him being the baseline for meteions experiences, it made absolute sense why im now trapsing about in ultima thule.

Its why at the time i had a mini tantrum and begged that she be given to a normal human being who didnt have to always ascribe some nascent meaning to their emotions. You could easily see what was coming if this was left unchecked.

So yeah, i think its a very clever and very deliberate through line to the finale.

...Ah, maybe thats headcannon, it could just be he tasked meteion and her sisters to find the purpose of living and they only found despair? But i like my reading more

[Lane]

I know people can get defensive about these things, but it really is possible for writers to create characters that you're supposed to dislike and not relate to. It doesn't mean the writing was bad if that was their intent.

I'm not convinced we were supposed to dislike Hermes though. Despite everything he did, he still walks among the others at the end and is featured (positively) in the post-credits art, both of which many felt weren't deserved. He's also Ishikawa's favorite character. :P

[ippollite]

if you'll indulge me a bit... i found the post where i started to become deeply suspicious of Hermes. Ironically, part of the reason i wanted to post those real time reactions was because the discussion in the "this is a very bad expansion" thread at the time echoed some of what we're talking about. A big topic was those 'heel turns' as you say. So i really wanted to take advantage of both the fact i go far slower AND i sort of have an idea whats gonna happen at the end, to identify the set up points.

okay. im a bit further on in the elpsis quests. Ive been doing all these side quests and my only wish is that meteion shadows me.
Here's what ive learned about her tutor (whom ive been carefully apprising since i arrived): He's fucking deranged. He cant handle even the most basic emotions. He believes he is the only human capable of feeling things. He believes rationality is... 'academic disinterest'.

Thing is, i know where this is all going. I know who the final boss is. I know why she's the final boss... [because] her teacher is a lunatic.

Theres two comments that pointedly refute hermes thus far. (well... maybe not 'pointedly'... more, she understands he's trying to shelter her). The first is when she tells us that he TAUGHT her that mankind thinks of life as objects [not Hermes though, he's different from all these normies]. The second is immediately after when she directly tells him "its not me, its you".

She's just experiencing his anxiety and reproducing it. Im not past that point in the msq... well, not meaningfully past it. Ive been doing side quests.

Im almost angry. And i want meteion to see it so she understands the issue of nuance. But this lunatic is so 'certain',.. im struggling to progress the msq because... in my heart of hearts she deserved better.

Please game, please, give me a dialogue option to shut him down.

Actually, i think its two points that triggered this rant: First, i cant remember why, but the elpis flower scene where he says something like 'well at least im finally not alone' really rubbed me up the wrong way. AGAIN, i think its meant to. I trust the writers. Theres something very cynical about the way he's trying to cleave himself from his culture and society (id also throw in the way he taught her that everyone else (not him) thinks of non-ancient life as objects). The thing that bothers me about this is... it feels like gaslighting of meteion. Which sounds weird, i know. I mean hes telling her that only he can understand her, only he can appreciate dynamis, only he can turn the flower purple. He felt very manipulative.

Okay, i get it. Im being melodramatic. So second point: Its not me, its you. This bothered me as well because the implication from this (i think, its been a while... and cant remember anything more than the words and tone), is that Meteion is a danger to everyone when she starts to feel bad stuff. Again, that she's being told that she's dangerous and needs Hermes' understanding and calming powers to talk her back down. Theres something very arrogant, controlling and manipulative about him. Or at least, that was my feeling at the time. Its why i was begging into the aether that someone take her away from him.

Anyways, probably once again lots of headcannon ("i FELT!!!") mixed in with some actual events in game creating this monster. But its why i think he wasnt supposed to be liked all the way through Elpis, which makes his turn less dramatic (well, for me... no one needs to agree with me - theres a more than 0 percent chance i just had a completely irrational reaction to any and all of it!). In turn its why i also have this other headcannon where meteion acts as she does because shes been infected by a hermes variation (she is the hermes in my head - cold, cynical, hyper rational, calculating, superior) pushed to her logical form.

[Thoughtcrime]

I don't think Amon was his sole, core, or even primary personality, I think Hermes was an internally tormented character and Amon was a manifestation of that part that was at war with himself. Hermes reminds me of Raskolnikov in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment and the parallels are numerous enough to convince me that he was at least partly Ishikawa's inspiration for Hermes (I don't actually know what she's said on the character so this is just personal interpretation). I don't want to go off on a tangent about a completely different book and character but like Raskolnikov, and well, most of Dostoevsky's protagonists (and the author himself) Hermes is a character arguing with himself and others to justify existence and find meaning in life.

Such pursuits are hard to relate to for many people that haven't contended with those thoughts but to that I'd say "give it time" because it's something that all human beings experience when they or someone they truly love are needlessly suffering past the point of tolerance. Like consciousness itself these are thoughts and feelings that can't be reconciled by another person empirically, scientifically, and so are easy to dismiss as "philosophical nonsense" or, simply, sophistry but that doesn't really contend with their existence or resolve anything, it's just a convenient linguistic bludgeon to use against any philosophical argument a person or character finds uncomfortable which is exactly how the word is used by Emet in Ktisis Hyperboreia.

A criticism often levelled at Hermes is his sudden switch into nihilism, and while I think the tonal shift in the story is sudden I don't see him as falling into nihilism at all. Again, to me he is more conflicted and is represented as a character that could go either way. Meteion IS a representation of nihilism, and while Hermes understands her and stops the others from just killing her he ultimately rejects her analysis. Remember, she offers to take him away with her and embrace her evaluation of existence and he chooses to remain as a man and oppose the oblivion she brings. These are not the actions of a nihilist, they are the actions of someone struggling with what they know and how they feel.

My own interpretation of the character is that by walking the line between knowledge and emotion and his search for meaning he represents the most human of the ancients. He was ultimately conflicted between his thoughts and feelings, between his love of life and his knowledge of suffering. The empirical, scientific part of his psyche was pulling him toward nihilism, and the emotional, philosophical part rejected it. I think that when the sundering occurred and his soul was split that part of him that represents empirical thought eventually manifested in Amon (a scientist). As the rejoinings accrued over time and more of Hermes thoughts and feelings coalesced in the soul of Amon those latent memories and emotions compounded on a soul already weighted toward nihilism and tipped it over the edge. To me, Amon/Fandaniel of our time is a broken version of the original Hermes but even he is not without some layer of tragedy. He didn't choose to have those thoughts and feelings, they were echos of another life forced on him by successive rejoinings that further corrupted and tormented an already unstable mind. His conclusion that in the face of unbearable torment and needless suffering in a meaningless world it would be better that reality didn't exist at all is something which while you personally may not be able to relate to, many suicide victims probably could.

I'll say again, I haven't made up my mind about Hermes yet and I'm still formulating my thoughts on him and his role in the story. There are problems in the way his character is portrayed but for me it's not as simple as dismissing him as crazy or emo, even if I get that people will inevitably do so.

[ippollite]

It's so weird you bring up crime and punishment, earlier today i was thinking (well, more trying to recall) why i struggled with the outsider by camus (the whole nihilism line...), and Roskolnikov. I think its because Roskolnikov (and his experience of guilt) made him a far more believable human being than the protagonist in the outsider. Either way, that was a beautiful write up. You've made me soften my position a little on Hermes. Perhaps i just went into Elpis ready to judge him (based on what he became) and it affected my neutrality

[Dastreus]

Also it makes the Shadowbringers cutscene of Elidibus faking a buring sky to have people awaken to their blessing a little pointless.

How tf? No, those ones weren't pulled aside into a pocket dimension to have a chat with The Mother Crystal like we did at the start. I assume during that opening cutscene is when we get our blessing of light, and the others who got it in the crystarium for example, seemed altogether with it so they didn't get pulled aside.

[Thoughtcrime]

It's so weird you bring up crime and punishment, earlier today i was thinking (well, more trying to recall) why i struggled with the outsider by camus (the whole nihilism line...), and Roskolnikov. I think its because Roskolnikov (and his experience of guilt) made him a far more believable human being than the protagonist in the outsider. Either way, that was a beautiful write up. You've made me soften my position a little on Hermes. Perhaps i just went into Elpis ready to judge him (based on what he became) and it affected my neutrality

For me at least there's so much to talk about, nothing worth discussing is ever as cut and dry as some suggest. When someone is writing off characters (or people) simplistically in a way that I feel is unfair it's in my nature to talk about it and sometimes even be a contrarian little bitch to get something more substantial out of them. I don't necessarily disagree but writing and talking is how I think so I'm really using it as a means to get to what I truly believe often before I've figured that out myself. Boiling things down to caricatures of Hitler, Nazi, Trump, Stalin, Emo, Jesus, Crazy and so on to me is is just a way to say "this is beyond discussing" or "I can't be bothered" and does leave little to talk about and it's disappointing when I know there's so much more there and the people saying these things are capable of better, but are just being lazy.

It's worth noting in regard to Hermes that while many players write him off as insane, none of the characters in the story do. Quite the opposite actually, he's highly regarded for his scientific, analytical, rational mind which is why he is being groomed for the position of Fandaniel in the first place. Even when his plan to set the stage for the final days via Kairos is put into place an eminently sane character like Hythlodaeus can only congratulate him for the "fairness" of his actions.

[Ghost of Cow]

It's worth nothing in regard to Hermes that while many players write him off as insane, none of the characters in the story do. Quite the opposite actually, he's highly regarded for his scientific, analytical, rational mind which is why he is being groomed for the position of Fandaniel in the first place. Even when his plan to set the stage for the final days via Kairos is put into place an eminently sane character like Hythlodaeus can only congratulate him for the "fairness" of his actions.

I would have to disagree there, Hades asks him if he's lost his mind, and even Venat declares that she can't be up front about what happened because he might go bonkers again.

Hythlodaeus' declaration of fairness only refers to the fact that wiping their memories makes the "test" fair - as in, Hermes cannot work against them, nor can the ancients work against him. Not that the test itself is sensible, or that any of Hermes' other actions make sense.

[Thoughtcrime]

I would have to disagree there, Hades asks him if he's lost his mind, and even Venat declares that she can't be up front about what happened because he might go bonkers again.

Hythlodaeus' declaration of fairness only refers to the fact that wiping their memories makes the "test" fair - as in, Hermes cannot work against them, nor can the ancients work against him. Not that the test itself is sensible, or that any of Hermes' other actions make sense.

Yeah as I mentioned initially I don't think his character is without problems and I really need to replay EW to evaluate Hermes more carefully. I don't remember everything that took place or was said and think in my memory I interpreted any expressions of insanity toward Hermes during and after KH as incredulity, more a "what the fuck?" to mirror the player's emotional response than a definitive take on his state of mind, particularly based on how he is presented throughout the rest of story and especially at the end. However for me, dismissing him as crazy without evaluation is missing the mark as much as accepting his views without question.

I think it's a really important and common misunderstanding of Hermes that he embraced nihilism. He didn't want to wipe out mankind or end existence and he in fact stood against that when given the option to embrace it so he must have had some hope that mankind would rise to Meteion's judgment. He was a character whose hope was hanging by a thread and was desperately grasping at straws to see that hope realised.

What was his hope? All Hermes wanted was to find the meaning in life to justify his and mankind's existence and position of judgement over the life and death of Etheirys' inhabitants, and when he couldn't find one he demanded that mankind face the same judgement it was placing on others. Either that meaning exists and reveals itself to mankind to halt Meteion's song or it doesn't and mankind joins those that by their own criteria were deemed unworthy. This was the uncomfortable philosophical argument that Emet accused of sophistry.

[Myradin]

Hey everyone, have you heard about the heat death of the universe and the literally tiniest brief age of stars? Have you ever pondered on this and fell into nihilism and despair and not thought "Holy shit! i live in that brief moment during the time of stars prior to the heat death of the universe!!!??!"

I mean, its fine if you did. We are, as a species (particularly as individuals) weird as all hell. That's fine. We arent all going to go 'oooh! isnt it amazing that not only we won the egg and spoon race to literally exist, but that we should exist right at this moment....'. But, have you seen the cosmic timeline? We are literally a zygote swimming around in amniotic fluid before the reality of even our... i really want to say 'teenage years' but for some reason 'gestation' seems more appropriate.

These devs seem to think far too... hopefully about our future. All we needed to do was invite Meteion to the infinite monkey cage podcast. She'd have no chance. Heck introduce her to brian cox as he happily explains all this like a golden retriever puppy. The ae are... aetherically compromised.

There's plenty of people who like to think they're big and important in the universe and that there's a plan for everything, and even should things be destroyed that they were be immortalized for all eternity.

Its pretty much what religion runs off of.

Not to get too much into religious topics, but FF14 is very much about shirking off false gods and coming to terms of making the best of one's brief time in the universe.

[Ghost of Cow]

What was his hope? All Hermes wanted was to find the meaning in life to justify his and mankind's existence and position of judgement over the life and death of Etheirys' inhabitants, and when he couldn't find one he demanded that mankind face the same judgement it was placing on others. Either that meaning exists and reveals itself to mankind to halt Meteion's song or it doesn't and mankind joins those that by their own criteria were deemed unworthy. This was the uncomfortable philosophical argument that Emet accused of sophistry.

Of course, the thing about that "test" is that it's just in the form of a surprise attack by an extinction-threatening force.

I'm not sure what kind of "test" that's supposed to be, especially in the context. If anything, it's his actions making the case that he - and he alone - is unfit to be a steward of any star, to borrow a phrase from Hades.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah as I mentioned initially I don't think his character is without problems and I really need to replay EW to evaluate Hermes more carefully. I don't remember everything that took place or was said and think in my memory I interpreted any expressions of insanity toward Hermes during and after KH as incredulity, more a "what the fuck?" to mirror the player's emotional response than a definitive take on his state of mind, particularly based on how he is presented throughout the rest of story and especially at the end. However for me, dismissing him as crazy without evaluation is missing the mark as much as accepting his views without question.

Yeah, Hermes seems very reasonable and empathetic at first. But someone that just snaps and declares, "I don't fit in with you people, so I'm gonna kill all of you and if you can't stop it then I guess you were unworthy!" isn't a reasonable person.

We have parallels to that in real life, and in no case would we entertain that as a reasonable course of action.

[Aucald]

One aspect of FF14's overarching story I don't really get at this point is that if many of the groups who are summoning Primals know about the tempering process - that the "gods" they're summoning will inevitably mind-control them into zealots, then why do they keep doing it? In some cases, it makes sense - groups who may not know about tempering or Primals that are summoned due to circumstances beyond the summoner's control - but for a lot of them, it just seems like a bad idea and bad deal all around.