I dont want “renewal”. Here is why.

[DatToffer]

That's not really a race "granting themselves power over life or death," it's more one militant member of a race saying "my people tend to kill those who screw with us." It's a bold statement, sure; but it's not really tantamount to claiming power over existence. Night Elves as a rule are pretty modest and even-keeled, and Maiev is probably one of the most extreme examples the Kaldorei have produced.

That's fair. It was mostly my introduction to pointing that Kaldorei deem themselves defenders of Nature but don't seem to care too much about the other races of said nature.

It depends on what kind of corruption we talking about. In WoW removing physical damage is trivial, removing corruption is at times near impossible, its a common trope of many fantasy titles though. You can regrow limbs, heal ghastly wounds, save lives with a single spell but "corruption" is always the worst.

Yeah. I know corruption is the worst evil mcguffin in Warcraft. It's pretty visible in Felwood. But since people seem to await a whole bunch of miracles from Elune to save the NE asses, I wanted to point how little she was expected to do otherwise.

Also nice try moving the goalposts, but you may have to try harder. Much harder.

What was the goalpost already ? Peace would be weird because kaldorei didn't get reparation or retaliation ?

Well I guess my point is that it's okay if they don't get any of it, because in war you rarely get what you think you deserve.

[Ivarr]

And it helps to remember that even then BFA had more distinct motives among its two poles, those being saccharine goodness and cartoonish villainy than post-BFA where every positive character from Azeroth has identical values and goals and where the only possible conflict can emerge from the outside. The people who complain about how 'warcraft doesn't ahve to mean faction war' despite that being the secondary pillar of the entire game and franchise besides fighting PvE and the only actual gameplay ground for why distinct motives even have to exist have only themselves to blame now that in the main narrative the entire Azeroth cast consists of identical drones.

It's also quite boring to have every intra-faction conflict about disagreeing whether or not the other faction should be attacked or not.

Shadowlands did spice things up with the Covenants, with two of them misbehaving. But indeed, immediately snapping into 'evil' with rebellious splinter within the covenant for the players to still behave good.

Not to mention all the covenants basically just prefer to stay on their turf and be left alone anyway. They don't have any conflicting motives other than 'be evil'.

Back in Azeroth you could have an industrial faction that seeks to despoil nature that is now at odds with a druidic faction. Or indeed like the Maghar campaign a Light faction that seeks to convert everyone against their will, nobody else likes that so they'd be at odds with everyone but probably possess some kind of resource everyone else needs as well. Maybe a Azshara faction that seek to flood all subterranean domains in Azeroth with the ocean and the Dark Iron dwarves definitely not being pleased with that. Gnomes fucked up again and build self-replicating robots but they seek to solve this threat by creating more self-replicating robots but there's a faction of anti-tech lead by ogres who are the only ones who take the gnomes' folly seriously and want to end the gnomes before an AI apocalypse happens.

I can go on, believe me, but I hope the point is clear. It's not difficult to find all kinds of bizarre, deranged, yet morally ambiguous motivations for sub factions that automatically conflict with one or several other sub factions. That's interesting. Now there's feuds, pacts and friendships, there's treason and begrudged partnerships.

The moment Blizzard allows for conflict amongst smaller groups of players, the story starts writing itself.

[VladlTutushkin]

That's fair. It was mostly my introduction to pointing that Kaldorei deem themselves defenders of Nature but don't seem to care too much about the other races of said nature.




Yeah. I know corruption is the worst evil mcguffin in Warcraft. It's pretty visible in Felwood. But since people seem to await a whole bunch of miracles from Elune to save the NE asses, I wanted to point how little she was expected to do otherwise.




What was the goalpost already ? Peace would be weird because kaldorei didn't get reparation or retaliation ?

Well I guess my point is that it's okay if they don't get any of it, because in war you rarely get what you think you deserve.

In war "directed" by hacks who first trip you over with their writing and then cuck you with fake promises of retaliation? Many a DM were socked in the eye for that shit. Its called "writers fiat" or "rock falls and kills you". If that was some other setting, which actually followed logic to some degree i wouldnt have argued. But WoW wrote itself to the point where its clear that only "rule of cool" rules and things happen for shits and giggles.

So why shouldnt they get their promised retaliation and revenge? Why the fuck shoudnt they if the reason they ended up in this position in the first place is because writers just bent every single factor to reach the "desired" outcome?

[Aucald]

That's fair. It was mostly my introduction to pointing that Kaldorei deem themselves defenders of Nature but don't seem to care too much about the other races of said nature.

In that vein, the Night Elves have primarily fought outright invaders and/or unnatural perversions of various types - the Naga are corrupted by the Old Gods and as such are definitely opposed to nature in general, the Satyr were demonically corrupted Night Elves with whom the Night Elves warred in their history. Ditto the Legion, of course; extradimensional beings opposed to life in general. Beyond that, the Night Elves have committed themselves to nature and the preservation of life, as expected of a group that puts Druids and Priests into prominence from a cultural standpoint.

[Dhrizzle]

The Horde and Alliance are two monoliths. If there's to be any plot at all then there need to be sub-groups, like in Game of Thrones. BfA had the right idea, it's just that there still weren't enough ways to divide the horde and alliance before piecing it back together into something interesting again.

We had this in Vanilla, the Alliance and Horde weren't in total warfare but the battlegrounds had hot conflicts between sub factions.

- - - Updated - - -

Tyrande's made no choice because when she did try to kill Sylvanas Elune pulled the plug, ergo the only way for her actions to not be completely futile was to go along with what Elune required her

You should finish or look up the Ardenweald campaign and main quests that came in the latest patch. Tyrande is stripped of the mind-fogging influence of the Night Warrior's power and that is when Elune gives her the choice either to use the Tear of Elune for revenge or renewal.

[Ivarr]

We had this in Vanilla, the Alliance and Horde weren't in total warfare but the battlegrounds had hot conflicts between sub factions.

[username993720]

Yes, but still you can. While PvE which is faaar more "lore justified" for crossfaction or mercenary mode is for some reason faction locked.

I'm fine with that.

[DatToffer]

In that vein, the Night Elves have primarily fought outright invaders and/or unnatural perversions of various types - the Naga are corrupted by the Old Gods and as such are definitely opposed to nature in general, the Satyr were demonically corrupted Night Elves with whom the Night Elves warred in their history. Ditto the Legion, of course; extradimensional beings opposed to life in general. Beyond that, the Night Elves have committed themselves to nature and the preservation of life, as expected of a group that puts Druids and Priests into prominence from a cultural standpoint.

It's true for what we've been shown. Although I'm always pissed at how the kaldorei deal with the corruption of otherwise chill creatures like the furbolgs.

The line of Maiev, while outdated also implies (at least from what I understand) that the night elves have brought races to extinction, but given it's old and isolated, we shall never know if it's true and to what amount.

In war "directed" by hacks who first trip you over with their writing and then cuck you with fake promises of retaliation? Many a DM were socked in the eye for that shit. Its called "writers fiat" or "rock falls and kills you". If that was some other setting, which actually followed logic to some degree i wouldnt have argued. But WoW wrote itself to the point where its clear that only "rule of cool" rules and things happen for shits and giggles.

So why shouldnt they get their promised retaliation and revenge? Why the fuck shoudnt they if the reason they ended up in this position in the first place is because writers just bent every single factor to reach the "desired" outcome?

I guess vengeance is just not the desired outcome. Seems simple enough although pretty unsavory, considering we'd all want Sylvanas to be dealt with in that way.

[geco]

Yeah. Sorry but that was not the point of my argument here. The point was that Warcraft always had Horde vs Alliance at its core.

Although peace would be unsatisfying in some ways (NE not having actual reparations for whatever they suffered) it would be satisfying for most the playerbase, gameplay-wise.

But they had to do that having cut in BFA.

Now they are very deep in the shit. I mean before all this trash from Elune could still save it with one more expansion of Kaldorei (2 more than necessary I know) Where the Kaldorei and the renegades rebuild their cities.

In its place we have all this junk that only increases the thirst for blood.

I mean, seto is not following the W3 war. This is to close the BFA weft.


Besides there is one more issue. We imagine that they continue with this style and we preach Sylvanas .. Ok why do I fight the big bad? I mean, none of the big bad guys did the same damage that Sylvanas and La Horad did in teldrazzil.

In other words, a peace that "is peace because God the author says so" is unsatisfactory for everyone.
* The relationship between Sylvanas and the renegades remains broken.
* The Horde is still a bunch of genocidal monsters that have no Honor.
* The Kaldorei basically lost and are forced to bite the pillow and shut up.

I understand the idea of ​​Paz. But a peace that is by divine decision has no value.

A good peace would have been at the end of Legion. But blizzard blew it.

__________________________________
Or in other words. Does it make sense to sacrifice the Kaldorei, Renegades, and Horde to find a peace for only the remaining ones to enjoy?

[VladlTutushkin]

It's true for what we've been shown. Although I'm always pissed at how the kaldorei deal with the corruption of otherwise chill creatures like the furbolgs.

The line of Maiev, while outdated also implies (at least from what I understand) that the night elves have brought races to extinction, but given it's old and isolated, we shall never know if it's true and to what amount.



I guess vengeance is just not the desired outcome. Seems simple enough although pretty unsavory, considering we'd all want Sylvanas to be dealt with in that way.

Sylvanas got her vengeance, even if not directly. Nobody was redeeming Arthas. Same as for Velen, THE "forgive and forget" guy saw both of his brothers-enemies killed and got his vengeance. But when it comes to Tyrande then its "too much"?

And as other guy said - peace would have being an option without vengeance if Blizz didnt shit the bed so thoroughly and created such a massive problem. They could have stopped any time but now they cant just "swipe it under a rug" without chasing away more and more playerbase.

[geco]

Sylvanas got her vengeance, even if not directly. Nobody was redeeming Arthas. Same as for Velen, THE "forgive and forget" guy saw both of his brothers-enemies killed and got his vengeance. But when it comes to Tyrande then its "too much"?

And as other guy said - peace would have being an option without vengeance if Blizz didnt shit the bed so thoroughly and created such a massive problem. They could have stopped any time but now they cant just "swipe it under a rug" without chasing away more and more playerbase.

We emphasize that Tyrande only wants the head of the Sylvanas. The legion was destroyed and the Scourge enslaved. But Tyrande wants only Sylvanas, not the Horde.

[agentsi]

I did suffered because spending more then ten years of your life being a huge fan of a setting only for it to go down in such a hail of shit is actually painful.

And in before you say that “its just a game”. Many people get mad or defensive about their hobbies/fan-favorite things. Be that a singer, a band, a football team, a comics or a game.

My mother is 45 years old and she still gets mad when i joke about the death of her favourite pop-singer from when she was young.

You're taking this way too seriously man.

You should step away for no reason other than that.

If you don't like a movie, stop watching it. You don't like a game, stop playing it. It's really that simple.

No one is forcing you to play this game or deal with the bad writing. You're the reason you're unhappy with the game, not them. They aren't writing and designing the game around you and your happiness. They have a story they want to tell, and they are. Players should not get to dictate how the story their being told gets written.

That all aside, I am 50/50 on how the story is, some parts I like, some parts I hate, but it isn't my decision. But in reality, the MMO-c forums, are an extremely small fraction of the player base, and none of us here agree on anything. Most folks I speak to in-game like it, and like the lore and everything else.

So again, it's you, not them. Stop playing and find a game you enjoy more.

[DatToffer]

I'llbe honest with you guys, I don't care if the Night elves don't get the revenge they want or if Sylvanas gets redeemed. This would be unsatisfactory for some but not me.

As long as we get the gameplay benefits of peace, I'm fine.

[geco]

I'llbe honest with you guys, I don't care if the Night elves don't get the revenge they want or if Sylvanas gets redeemed. This would be unsatisfactory for some but not me.

As long as we get the gameplay benefits of peace, I'm fine.

Nobody says you can't enjoy yourself.
But hey you are in the Lore forum. Here people prefer Lore.

[DatToffer]

Nobody says you can't enjoy yourself.
But hey you are in the Lore forum. Here people prefer Lore.

But the lore is in such a state that any headcanon made up by the fans could be better.

Most discussions are less about the lore itself than what the OP wants it to be.

[geco]

But the lore is in such a state that any headcanon made up by the fans could be better.

Most discussions are less about the lore itself than what the OP wants it to be.

Well, you are right on that.
But hey what can I tell you. For headcanon there is fanfic and Rolplay.
But you're back on the Lore forum and not everyone is arguing about the most OP that can be. There are good ideas ... well, lately, I'm not here much either XD

This is like what's left of what's left of what was beautiful on W3.

[gaymer77]

You were focusing on "war" not "warcraft" You specifically pointed out it has war in the name. Thats why I pointed out it also has craft in the name.

You were the one who brought up not focusing on crafting too/instead of. I pointed you to the definition of "warcraft" which oddly enough has basis in war as well (the art of war & a military/navy ship or plane...you know the WAR groups). That means that what I said is 100% accurate while your strawman of asking why we aren't focusing on crafting of the word is just plain bullshit.

[Kithelle]

Sorry but Varian was mostly a bigger Mary Sue than Thrall and they had to dumb down most of the Alliance leaders to make him look interesting.

He is the reason why the Alliance is now about humans and how the other races are just humans in different sizes and colors.

But I guess if you consider that the death of a character is only important if he was interesting, then the terrible losses of random npcs don't amount to anything.

Bigger mary sue than Thrall? I don't remember anyone coming to him to save Azeroth...we didn't spend part of a expansion following Varian...there is a reason Thrall has the nickname Green Jesus, no one ever called Varian, Jesus

Because the Horde really focuses on all the races right? How much focus have Tauren gotten besides their moose antler cousins joining? Same with Darkspear and Zandalari. How much focus have the Forsaken got other than being screwed over by Sylvanas? Oh I forgot...so much lore was added about Goblins beyond them being "LOL GREEDY"!

Sorry but this is a big Bzzzzzzzt wrong

[Orange Joe]

You were the one who brought up not focusing on crafting too/instead of. I pointed you to the definition of "warcraft" which oddly enough has basis in war as well (the art of war & a military/navy ship or plane...you know the WAR groups). That means that what I said is 100% accurate while your strawman of asking why we aren't focusing on crafting of the word is just plain bullshit.

Yeah... no...

You do know that there's three letters in the game that make why the "annual war crime whoopsie" can't not happen right? It is called World of WARcraft....

You highlighted war like it means the alliance and horde must be in constant war.

[DatToffer]

Bigger mary sue than Thrall? I don't remember anyone coming to him to save Azeroth...we didn't spend part of a expansion following Varian...there is a reason Thrall has the nickname Green Jesus, no one ever called Varian, Jesus

Well let me see... Big guy who can behead a dragon in one blow. Is so awesome that even the orcs respect him as an avatar of a wolf deity. Teaches night elves how to win a Warsong Gulch. Teaches a thousands years old being the virtues of patience. Comes to help dwarves with their troll infestations because apparently they are too busy bickering to care about their own people ? Is the chosen one of a god wolf, although you literally have a werewolf king next to him. The Alliance unanimously decide he should be the High King of them all, which is supposed to be a military title... That his kid still inherits ??

Yeah. No, Varian was too detrimental to the Alliance development. He is Garrosh in his own way, except Garrosh was crushed in the spotlight, while the other leaders sacrificed their spot to make Varian shine.

Because the Horde really focuses on all the races right? How much focus have Tauren gotten besides their moose antler cousins joining? Same with Darkspear and Zandalari. How much focus have the Forsaken got other than being screwed over by Sylvanas? Oh I forgot...so much lore was added about Goblins beyond them being "LOL GREEDY"!

Well... Yeah. The tauren had the Highmountains. Baine saved the Proudmoore brother and delivered him to his family. It's a tauren who stands next to Anduin when trying to convince Xuen that the Horde and Alliance are worthy of entering the Vale. Taurens play a nice part in the defense of Hyjal and are the only race that can build a bridge between the Horde and the Night elves.

The Darkspear led the rebellion against Garrosh. Vol'jin stood up to Zul in Cataclysm and was the warchief in WoD. We get to see and help his ghost in BFA.

Zandalari successfully introduce new characters, instead of bringing a spotlight on an old Warcraft 3 character like the Kul'tiras story (Let's not forget that Flynn and Taelia are just insufferable, so not good new characters).

Forsaken had a real boost in Cataclysm and invaded most of their surroundings. They've been silent for some time, but got a new queen, even a duo of leaders who actually care about them.

Galliwyx had quite a development in BFA, even if it was his swan song, to the point where he is the antagonist of an Alliance questline. One where the owerpowered Void elves get humiliated. Golbins also appear all along the Mechagnome story. They discovered new lodes of the precious Kaja'mite in Zandalar which is kind of a big thing for them.


Now... What about the Alliance ? We have Tyrande becoming dumber and dumber as she's turning into a plot device. Malfurion flexes his roots in a cinematic and then goes back to sleep after rooting one Horde base in the Darkshore warfront. The dark moon curse that is supposed to make them OP just brings them to the same power level they had in Warcraft 3. But at least they get to play with most of their RTS units.

In Nazjatar, the jobs of two nightborne mages and one tauren spiritwalker in the Horde are given to one Jaina in the Alliance (yay shared spotlight).

Velen gets to be angry and sad multiple times in Legion. Ultimately he has to share the spotlight with a delusive night elf demon and a light human. Then he goes back to sleep. The Exodar was sent back to the dump by demons as soon as it was repaired. The super cool new spaceship they used to bring back their Lightforged bros is stuck in the parking lot while the orcs from an alternative timeline flex in the oceans with their aircraft carriers. Plus the Lightforged bros are led by a human and their development is eclipsed by the love story of light human boy and void elf girl. They come to aid with a shitload of light barriers and mechas but get rekt by the power of voodoo unleashed by that old dude from the noob zone.

Let's not forget how the Alliance sacrificed half an army of the allied races who just joined them just to kill a king in a city they couldn't hold. And they lost them in a dumb swamp. But we get to see our dear gnome king push a button. Also he gets a sweet Ark reactor in Mechagon so that's cool. The whole Mechagon storyline is cool actually. Except that now gnomes have two capitals that are actually just dungeons.

The dwarves who are supposed to be united have never done anything collectively. There's this one dwarf who harasses you all along BFA to get his fix of Titan powder though. At the end, he forgets that his planet waifu still has a big sword up her ass. I guess he's into NTR.

In Kul'tiras we discover the story of humans, humans, humans, humans and more humans. While Zandalar gives us trolls, vulperas, sethraks and cool loas. Greymane crush a lantern once and that may be the only thing he does for himself. Rest of the time he's Anduin's guard dog as much as Nathanos is Sylvanas' hound. Except Nathanos actually gets walked sometimes.

So yeah. I think that both in quality and quantity of development, the rest of the Alliance falls behind human drama. And that is sad.