Class Skins would add many new classes and be a major draw for a new expansion

[Ielenia]

Atiesh didn’t give abilities to one class exclusively.

It's still a legendary weapon that granted an ability that the class(es) normally do not posses.

I didn’t make anything up.

More delusional lies:

No. No, it doesn't. It is wholly irrelevant. It doesn't matter if those other "some games" consider imps and succubi to be undead creatures (which, by the way, you have failed to mention even one of said "some games"). Those "some games" are not WoW. Full stop.

Dungeons and Dragons would be one such example.

Oh, look. Once again Teriz proving, without a shadow of doubt, that he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about:




We are, once more, at the point in which Teriz desperately and blatantly makes shit up to support his own agenda.

Additionally you’ve been consistently ignoring the myriad of necromancer abilities in the Warlock class.[/QUOTE]

[Teriz]

It's still a legendary weapon that granted an ability that the class(es) normally do not posses.

Yeah, an ability for multiple classes, while the bow is ONLY for the Hunter class. Additionally, the Quiver isn't a legendary, and it ALSO offers Hunters a Dark Ranger ability.

Sylvanas' weapon and quiver grants Dark Ranger abilities EXCLUSIVELY to the Hunter class. Another in a long line of Dark Ranger abilities/items that only Hunters are able to use/obtain.

Shouldn't the message be loud and clear by now?

More delusional lies

And more misdirection from you....

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Wonder what a DK could be skinned as. Feels like most of the plate wearing magical melee skins would be pally based.

Maybe something new, ethereal or void themed? is Void Knight a thing? =\

Oh I already do this with my DK, but Frost would just be an amazing reskin for a Frostfencer. And my Unholy DK is an Auchenai Soulbinder, which I think would be the best whole class reskin for DK's changing the undead minions for ghosts like we see Exarch Maladaar conjure

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think you could turn DK into any kind of magic/melee hybrid, the biggest issue is probably that the class is heavily focused on 2h and dw only in one class. The usual stuff that comes to mind are dark knight and well death knight for that fantasy. The former isn't explored alot in warcraft though and the later is the basis already. If we keep the weapon choices we could probably turn it into something like a spellblade spec, but that is really stretching it imho (if we take alluriel as the basis). The closest, since it is the most ill defined, would probably be a dragon knight, though I think in WoW many would expect it to have a healing spec.

I think switching weapons around would be easy, as in trading str 2H for the usual agi/int 2h weapons like staves and poles, that wouldn't affect the overall design and balance of a class much. The issue is the armor, as here we tend to find actual changes that impact gameplay alot, especially in PvP and while tanking. So coming up with a slow melee fighter that uses lots of magic but uses staves/poles or str 2h weapons and has plate is not exactly a fantasy that is brimming with possible contenders. Something like reaper classes with scythes (poles/staves) aren't very much part of Warcraft's fantasy either. I guess a battle mage could work somewhat, but then the choice of armor is still somewhat of an issue, though Dalaran has at least a few of those as guards.

While we could do minor changes as passives that correct fantasy related issues with the donor mechanics that wouldn't come with much work down the line, the danger is always that once you break out of the original setup fringe cases could appear. Maybe there is suddenly an item that wouldn't ordinarily be used by DKs but with the reskinned class derived from DKs this piece suddenly has effects that are OP. This could either lead to stifling the original class (even though they don't do much with these anymore anyway) or cause headaches of nerfs for the new or other classes that share in the same item pool with them.

Luckily I think once again this idea, to expand the playstyle options of players, is not required to actually have a skin for every class. In fact it's backwards to the premise of making use of existing classes and their mechanics to generate new flavor classes. We shouldn't be asking what can I make DKs fit, we should be asking what "new" classes could use which old class' mechanics.

Btw, I think this will never happen. It would be too much bad PR, because despite everyone knowing the reason why we see so few new classes, the reality is that it's equivalent to declaring creative bankruptcy. It is still something that would work in alot of cases though, as anyone capable of a little bit abstraction can see.

[Rhlor]

This forum and many others have forever been filled with endless discussion over what class should be added next. At any given time, you can find at least one, if not more, thread on a concept for a new class that should be added.

Adding a full new class takes a lot of time and effort on Blizzard's end as well as commiting to supporting and balancing that class for all future expansions. That's a lot. Add on to that the sheer number of classes that people repeatedly ask for and make concepts for, Tinker, Necromancer, Dragonsworn, and Bard all come to mind instantly, though I'm more than certain there are others.

So I think the best idea is to add in Class Skins as a system so that Blizzard can add new classes at any time as well as a massive dump of new classes without having to commit to any additional balancing.

How would this work exactly though?

The idea of a class skin is that mechanically, you are still playing one of the existing classes, but your abilities have their names and visuals changed to match the theme of a new class as well as the name of the class being changed.

For example, the Necromancer could be a skin for a Warlock where your "summon demon" spell becomes "raise undead" and your demons become various types of undead. I'd add on to this that, like allied races, each class skin should add a transmog set for the class, thus allowing you to fully immerse yourself in the fantasy of the new skin.

Some examples of class skins for each class could include:

Warrior -> Gladiator
Paladin -> Spellbreaker
Death Knight -> Mawsworn
Hunter -> Dark Ranger
Shaman -> Dragonsworn
Rogue -> Ninja
Monk -> Lorewalker
Druid -> Druid of the Flame
Demon Hunter -> Warden
Mage -> Blood Mage
Warlock -> Necromancer
Priest -> Cultist

Building on this idea, class skins can help to loosen the race/class restrictions. For example, Void Elves could be Paladins, but only if they use the Spellbreaker skin. Night Elves and Blood Elves could be Shamans, but only as the Dragonsworn skin. Along with this, race specific class skins could be added, allowing for more specific class fantasy. For example, Orc Warriors could be Blademasters or Night Elf Demon Hunters could be Night Warriors or Kul'Tiran Priests could be Tidesages.

Along with this whole system, I'd also advocate that one final class be added: the Tinker. This class is the most requested one I've seen and I think people would rejoice at its introduction. And with the class skin system, I'd add that Bard be a generic skin for Tinker and Apothecary as a race specific Tinker skin for Undead.

Overall, I think a system like this would make it much easier for Blizzard to add new classes at any time and to add a great deal more character customization to the game. Plus how big of a draw would it be if blizzard announced so many new and fan requested classes getting added to the game? I think it is a solution that can satisfy a lot of people.

spellbreaker are not paladins do not use any light skill

[FossilFree]

I think there are some changes they could make that on the surface appear to be mechanical changes, but in practice aren't really a big difference. Like Void Knight "paladins" using shadow magic instead of holy. If there was still huge differences between magic damage types, and the accompanying resistances (like in vanilla), then maybe it would matter. But right now it doesn't. For instance, I think you could make a DK class skin that uses fire to fit the Bolvar theme, with red dragon names and lore. It could be called dragonknight or perhaps hellfire.

Also, I think you could change weapon types as long as they don't cross the melee/ranged boundary. For example, rogues could get a blademaster skin that uses 2h weapons. As long as the damage output remains the same as dual wielding, then it doesn't really matter if you change their weapons to a single 2h weapon. Windwalk is very similar to stealth too, especially now that stealth makes you move faster, instead of slower like it used to do.

[Dancaris]

spellbreaker are not paladins do not use any light skill

And dragonsworn dont use elemental magic. It is the idea of topic - bring class to race that dont use that type of skills and magic via altering abilities with graphics and cosmetics

[TheRevenantHero]

And dragonsworn dont use elemental magic. It is the idea of topic - bring class to race that dont use that type of skills and magic via altering abilities with graphics and cosmetics

Spellbreaker would fit Warrior way more than Paladin. Also, Dragonsworn would be better as a full class rather than a skin.

[Ielenia]

Sylvanas' weapon and quiver grants Dark Ranger abilities EXCLUSIVELY to the Hunter class.

Probably because the hunter class is the only class that can use bows, and not because of some shady "dark rangers=hunters" thing.

Another in a long line of Dark Ranger abilities/items that only Hunters are able to use/obtain.

And were summarily removed.

And more misdirection from you....

What you call "misdirection" is actually just pointing out how you make shit up to back your arguments. even when they contradict easily verifiable information, like how you literally claimed D&D considers "imps and succubi to be undead" in your bid to claim that "necromancers fit the warlock class".

[Cosmic Janitor]

Also, I think you could change weapon types as long as they don't cross the melee/ranged boundary. For example, rogues could get a blademaster skin that uses 2h weapons. As long as the damage output remains the same as dual wielding, then it doesn't really matter if you change their weapons to a single 2h weapon. Windwalk is very similar to stealth too, especially now that stealth makes you move faster, instead of slower like it used to do.

Especially 1H and 2H conversions would be problematic, as frost DK has shown. There are too many things that interact with weapon speeds/attack rate like proccs and additional enchants that can cause problems. Blizzard so far hasn't even been willing to fix these issues with DKs.

[FossilFree]

Especially 1H and 2H conversions would be problematic, as frost DK has shown. There are too many things that interact with weapon speeds/attack rate like proccs and additional enchants that can cause problems. Blizzard so far hasn't even been willing to fix these issues with DKs.

They could make it work by adding something like Single Minded Fury vs Titan's Grip. But instead of both options on one class skin, the core class would get one of them and the class skin would get the other. A minor mechanical change yes, but not terribly difficult to add.

[username993720]

I remember seeing this. It looks great.

Well you cherry pick. The ones you don't care much about are allowed to be class skins, the ones you personally care about and want to see as new classes you argue against being a class skin

It's not that i don't care about certain "classes". It's that they are destined to be class skins because they are more of a race/class combination representation rather than an actual class. Like a Blood Mage, Sunwalker and Tidesage.
Other ones, which are much more complex and rich, deserve to be standalone classes.

Same if you applied this to races. Do Naga and Ogres deserve to be playable? No, not at all. No race *deserves* to be playable any more than any other, and the reason why anyone would suggest it is based on their own desire for it to become playable. And personal desires really have no bearing on what Blizzard adds to the game.

Ogres and Naga were considered for playability in Vanilla and Cataclysm. They were cut due to technical and artistic difficulties. I believe they deserve to be a race as much as Goblins (which, were considered alongside them).
Ogres were, literally, part of every Horde incarnation since its inception. There are skeletal rigs to support them becoming playable.
As for Naga, they had a whole faction during WC3, have male and female models, but their snake bodies (and extra arms) alongside their spines, i guess make it difficult for implementation. Well, maybe the Sethrak would prove to be the answer.

I don't *use* anything, since I don't add things to the game. All I'm doing is advocating for a potential new system that could add concepts/archetypes to the game. I'm not saying whether Blizzard should use one system or the other.

You, literally, picked which ones you considered class skins and which ones to be standalone classes in a previous comment. My question is: based on what?

-Out of WoW gameplay is not prescriptive of how a concept would be playable in WoW.

It's a great outline, since Blizzard usually gives unrelated abilities to NPCs in game that you cannot rely on. Other sources, on the other hand, are most times thematic and accurate.

"But you see MY bias makes sense"

No bias. I wanted High elves myself. They just simply don't constitute much to justify their own race.

Exactly that!

That figure sits above my desk and is the reason why I yearn for a fully-realized Spellbreaker as good as this figure in WoW. I'd love to see them playable, though I know a full new class would probably be too much to ask for. Same with any '4th spec' for any existing class. Class skin would be an ideal alternative.

Also that Johanna Spellbreaker skin is the permanently default I use for her. There's no competition for me, it's hands down my favourite skin for her, and one of my favourite skins in the game overall. Easily top 10.

It fits because Spellbreakers match the class skins concept.

C- New Specs - This one is a new idea I've come up with. Basically we treat the Echo as a new class and throw in all of the good stuff into one new Spec. Then we pair the Echo class to a Core class or spec as a means of filling in the gaps. It shares the same gameplay of a Core class for 1-2 specs, while the new spec offers something completely fresh.

So, basically what i said.
New classes are a mishmash of different classes and specs and cannot be "dressed" on any particular class/spec. That's why they usually deserve their own class.
Now, before you lash out, i realize new classes share thematics, mechanics and gameplay with existing ones. There can never be a total separation. So, they can definitely get inspiration from existing abilities and talents to design a new class and save up on development time and resources. Yet, nonetheless, some do deserve to be their own standalone classes.

[Triceron]

It's not that i don't care about certain "classes". It's that they are destined to be class skins because they are more of a race/class combination representation rather than an actual class. Like a Blood Mage, Sunwalker and Tidesage.
Other ones, which are much more complex and rich, deserve to be standalone classes.



Ogres and Naga were considered for playability in Vanilla and Cataclysm. They were cut due to technical and artistic difficulties. I believe they deserve to be a race as much as Goblins (which, were considered alongside them).
Ogres were, literally, part of every Horde incarnation since its inception. There are skeletal rigs to support them becoming playable.
As for Naga, they had a whole faction during WC3, have male and female models, but their snake bodies (and extra arms) alongside their spines, i guess make it difficult for implementation. Well, maybe the Sethrak would prove to be the answer.

I generally would agree with your assessment, but I will point out that its still subjective.

You are basically saying Naga deserve their own race, but can't get one, so instead we could have a half-measure race like Sethrak to fill in the gaps. And I would believe you are okay with this because you have little personal investment with Naga, and having them be playable or bust.

But when it comes to Priestess of the Moon or Dark Ranger? You won't personally accept anything less than a new class and will argue tooth and nail against any half-measure ideas of having them playable as a class skin, even though it'd be similar to the Sethrak idea as a holdover to a Naga race that might never actually be made playable. Same with class skins, the idea being that the Dark Ranger or POTM may actually be never considered playable as its own class being a reality that even the designers resign themselves to accepting.

And you can personally argue that you think they can make a new class out of it, but the technical reason against them would be that the designers might have other classes to pursue while the DR and POTM would be on the backburner indefinitely.

Same goes with Allied Races literally opening the door to races that would otherwise likely never get the spotlight as a new playable race on their own.

That is one of the benefits of Class Skins. It allows classes that otherwise may never be considered by Blizzard as a new class (not what we want, but what they choose to develop) and they could present them all through class skins instead. It is not about being an ideal solution, but a tangible way to consider alternatives to just having 1 or 2 new classes in the next 10-year span.

So, basically what i said.
New classes are a mishmash of different classes and specs and cannot be "dressed" on any particular class/spec. That's why they usually deserve their own class.
Now, before you lash out, i realize new classes share thematics, mechanics and gameplay with existing ones. There can never be a total separation. So, they can definitely get inspiration from existing abilities and talents to design a new class and save up on development time and resources. Yet, nonetheless, some do deserve to be their own standalone classes.

If we are talking about WoW having infinite time and resources or WoW having a new class added every expansion, then sure we can talk about Dark Rangers and PotM and Spellbreakers and Shadow Hunters all eventually getting their own class.

Unfortunately they don't have infinite resources and time to do all of this. They will choose only the concepts they want to develop, and that will not always align with what fans may be anticipating.

Heroes of the Storm hit this hurdle itself when new heroes slowed down. And if it was another Overwatch Hero or a Nexus hero, fans got upset it wasn't a Warcraft or Starcraft or Diablo pick. When they added Hogger, fans were upset it wasn't a 'Serious' character pick. This wasn't a problem when hero additions were frequent and we got one every couple months, it became an issue when we are waiting 6-12 months for each new hero and it being criticized for taking up valuable design space that could have been used for X highly anticipated hero instead.

Class skins would at least open up some options. And honestly speaking, it doesn't shut down the possibility of branching into new mechanics if Blizzard ever gets confident enough to do so. Add in the class now, gauge its popularity, and if its worth tackling new mechanics then they can absolutely rework a 'Class skin' into an actual Class. Think of it like the Warlock getting its Demonology rework, but instead of scrapping Metamorphosis, they simply kept it for Core Warlock and worked in Summoner gameplay for the Echo class. Thats how they could approach it, over time. It can be a spec-by-spec basis, it doesn't ever need immediate attention, and if it doesn't work out they can always roll back to the original Core class gameplay that just works.

The end result would still be a playable class added with its theme and visuals first, and they could slowly branch off into unique gameplay later. Any diversity comes with revamps, and we wouldn't have to see sweeping changes to an entire class to see diversity between Core and Echo classes, just individual spec reworks whenever it feels like a time to diversify, like Legion reworking Demo, Outlaw and Survival.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It's a great outline, since Blizzard usually gives unrelated abilities to NPCs in game that you cannot rely on. Other sources, on the other hand, are most times thematic and accurate.

"A great outline" is a far cry from being prescriptive, and thus a requisite. It really boils down to your own bias of preferring Tinker to be a class with their own unique gameplay than any other alternative. Whatever Tinker gameplay you refer to is rendered moot by the points already being made, and no "it's a great outline" isn't a strong argument.

No bias. I wanted High elves myself. They just simply don't constitute much to justify their own race.

I mean your investment on the Tinker concept is apparent tho, so there's an issue of magnitude here. Like several people have told you that the Tinker concept doesn't warrant being a new class because it goes beyond the idea of a cool gameplay and you have to consider the expansion wide context, so you really sound like those people that were "High Elf or Bust" and accept nothing less than High Elves as their own Allied Race.

So are you gonna be like the HE fans that accepted the VE compromise because HE was not likely to ever be their own race, or are you going to be like those that still want AR High Elves as their own thing?

And I'm not even saying that Tinkers are "never going to happen". They could. Who knows if the expansion where tinkers would fit perfectly thematically exists. But That was also true of Allied Race High Elves.

[jellmoo]

You, literally, picked which ones you considered class skins and which ones to be standalone classes in a previous comment. My question is: based on what?

Do you mean where I just randomly attributed the notion of a New Class or a Class Skin to some examples? That's all that was, a set of examples. You can complete reverse them if you like. Or change the list altogether. The only point was to illustrate how Blizzard could pick and choose the system to use.

[Teriz]

Probably because the hunter class is the only class that can use bows, and not because of some shady "dark rangers=hunters" thing.

You act as if the Hunter class being the only one that can use Sylvanas' abilities is some sort of divine intervention instead of purposeful design instituted by the developers of the game.

And were summarily removed.

And yet here we are again with more exclusive Dark Ranger abilities for the Hunter class.

What you call "misdirection" is actually just pointing out how you make shit up to back your arguments. even when they contradict easily verifiable information, like how you literally claimed D&D considers "imps and succubi to be undead" in your bid to claim that "necromancers fit the warlock class".

Again, I didn't make anything up, I just don't feel like digging through multiple D&D sourcebooks to find the information. Further, whether or not the Imp and Succubus is considered undead in D&D is secondary to the fact that the Warlock class is full of Necromancer style abilities.

[Neverafter]

I think some people aren't thinking abstractly enough, or maybe I'm just completely crazy. Here is an example of how a tinker COULD work, at least in my mind.

First, there has to be some seismic change, some reason, some threat so great that Azeroth's best get together and the decision is made that Azeroth needs more Tinkers. I don't know what the next expansion is going to be. But whatever it is, lets say that Mimiron receives a message from somewhere in the Great Beyond. There is a looming threat, and it's heading towards Azeroth. Flesh has no chance of defeating it, but machines, metal and stone, etc, can.

Mimiron reaches out to the Horde and the Alliance to warn them of this threat and to recruit Gazlowe and High Tinker Mekkatorque along with any willing members of the Alliance and Horde. Then there is a short questline, much like the quest chains that unlocked Allied Races. This one would involve Mimiron repurposing Ulduar into a Tinker Training Area, and our characters have to get various supplies, metals, gems, fuels, etc, in order to get the Training Area working. Just as it looks like we are about to have everything in place, X threat attacks. For arguments sake, lets say its a Darkened Naaru. Playable characters can't battle it because it invades their minds and sears their flesh, but Mimiron and a small group of Tinkers are able to defeat this advanced threat (more are on the way). Afterward, you get an achievement and Tinker's are unlocked as a class choice.

On the character creation screen we have all the available races and the icons for the classes. Now there is a cog icon, with a description stating that Tinkers are highly advanced technological battlers who use their mechanical knowledge to fight for them. They can be tanks, melee dps, ranged dps, and heal.

There's nothing linking them (on the surface) to a druid. Just as many players don't realize that Mogu are reskinned Draenei or Saurok reskinned Worgen, Tinkers would share no surface links to a druid.

You would create a character, choose Tinker, gather abilities and mech suits, etc, like any other class. All your abilities will be tech based. All the animations will be tech based. It's not that druids would somehow became technological wizards. There's nothing druid about a tinker, until you realize that the background, nuts and bolts (pun intended) skeleton if you will is the same. A druid swipe would do the same damage as a tinker's Gyro Arm, etc.

This would also work for any number of other class skins. Necromancer, Spellbreaker, Spellblade, etc. It would also help alleviate the need to have every single class have a class skin. Much like how they released Allied Races over time and not all at once, they could do the same here. Necromancer-Warlocks and Spellblade-Paladins are probably the easiest to do so they would probably come first. The animations, ability names, etc needed for Tinkers and others would take more work.

[Teriz]

I think some people aren't thinking abstractly enough, or maybe I'm just completely crazy. Here is an example of how a tinker COULD work, at least in my mind.

First, there has to be some seismic change, some reason, some threat so great that Azeroth's best get together and the decision is made that Azeroth needs more Tinkers. I don't know what the next expansion is going to be. But whatever it is, lets say that Mimiron receives a message from somewhere in the Great Beyond. There is a looming threat, and it's heading towards Azeroth. Flesh has no chance of defeating it, but machines, metal and stone, etc, can.

Mimiron reaches out to the Horde and the Alliance to warn them of this threat and to recruit Gazlowe and High Tinker Mekkatorque along with any willing members of the Alliance and Horde. Then there is a short questline, much like the quest chains that unlocked Allied Races. This one would involve Mimiron repurposing Ulduar into a Tinker Training Area, and our characters have to get various supplies, metals, gems, fuels, etc, in order to get the Training Area working. Just as it looks like we are about to have everything in place, X threat attacks. For arguments sake, lets say its a Darkened Naaru. Playable characters can't battle it because it invades their minds and sears their flesh, but Mimiron and a small group of Tinkers are able to defeat this advanced threat (more are on the way). Afterward, you get an achievement and Tinker's are unlocked as a class choice.

On the character creation screen we have all the available races and the icons for the classes. Now there is a cog icon, with a description stating that Tinkers are highly advanced technological battlers who use their mechanical knowledge to fight for them. They can be tanks, melee dps, ranged dps, and heal.

There's nothing linking them (on the surface) to a druid. Just as many players don't realize that Mogu are reskinned Draenei or Saurok reskinned Worgen, Tinkers would share no surface links to a druid.

You would create a character, choose Tinker, gather abilities and mech suits, etc, like any other class. All your abilities will be tech based. All the animations will be tech based. It's not that druids would somehow became technological wizards. There's nothing druid about a tinker, until you realize that the background, nuts and bolts (pun intended) skeleton if you will is the same. A druid swipe would do the same damage as a tinker's Gyro Arm, etc.

This would also work for any number of other class skins. Necromancer, Spellbreaker, Spellblade, etc. It would also help alleviate the need to have every single class have a class skin. Much like how they released Allied Races over time and not all at once, they could do the same here. Necromancer-Warlocks and Spellblade-Paladins are probably the easiest to do so they would probably come first. The animations, ability names, etc needed for Tinkers and others would take more work.

As always, the fundamental issue I have with this is that I simply don't see a scenario where Blizzard is reskinning an entire class to create something else entirely. Even if you remove mechanical changes from the table that's still a ton of work in terms of art assets, especially in the Druid class where there is 4 specs. We're talking about morphing a nature/magic class into a technology class. That requires you to change pretty much every ability and form to make it seem believable for the player. That seems far beyond the purpose of what a class skin should be, and more of a way for some posters to come up with a way to avoid adding new classes to the game.

We should also mention that Blizzard has never NEVER stated or even hinted that they were not going to add new classes to the game in the future.

Class Skins if ever implemented would more than likely be 1 or 2 specs where a couple of abilities need to be cosmetically changed into something else. One such example would be to reskin Warlock pets as undead creates in order to create a Necromancer skin. Another one that would make sense is to give Hunters the ability to appear as undead elves and have a few of their shot abilities cosmetically altered to look shadowy. That seems far more realistic possibility for this concept.

[username993720]

You are basically saying Naga deserve their own race, but can't get one, so instead we could have a half-measure race like Sethrak to fill in the gaps. And I would believe you are okay with this because you have little personal investment with Naga, and having them be playable or bust.

As a prototype, not necessarily as a replacement. They already have the snake-like movements.

Same with class skins, the idea being that the Dark Ranger or POTM may actually be never considered playable as its own class being a reality that even the designers resign themselves to accepting.

I'm having a hard time believing it after all the development done for Sylvanas and Tyrande.

And you can personally argue that you think they can make a new class out of it, but the technical reason against them would be that the designers might have other classes to pursue while the DR and POTM would be on the backburner indefinitely.

Again, hard to believe that it would be indefinitely.

That is one of the benefits of Class Skins. It allows classes that otherwise may never be considered by Blizzard as a new class (not what we want, but what they choose to develop) and they could present them all through class skins instead.

Which are what class/race representations are.

It is not about being an ideal solution, but a tangible way to consider what otherwise is seemingly a never-playable Dark Ranger or POTM class.

We had to wait 11 years for a Demon Hunter. Just because you have to wait doesn't mean it won't come.

If we are talking about WoW having infinite time and resources or WoW having a new class added every expansion, then sure we can talk about Dark Rangers and PotM and Spellbreakers and Shadow Hunters all eventually getting their own class.

How about every other expansion, which was the norm until Shadowlands? They skip one expansion and you guys go into panic.

They kind of dug their own grave by having the 3 spec system be so hard-defined. New classes really are problematic since we must consider they are adding 3 new 'Roles' worth of gameplay to balance just through one class.

Demon Hunter broke this pattern.
And that's what it takes to add a new class. If they are not up to the task, then they shouldn't run a video game.

Class skins don't have this problem, and the hope is to get any classes playable, more frequently than the current pace of 1 class every 4-6 years. Of course, ideally we should have new gameplay with new classes, but currently WoW is not in any ideal situation to add more than 1 or 2 in the next 10 years. And whatever the class is, it will always be divisive.

You always present the Class skin concept with no drawbacks. That's not the case. It has drawbacks since it can't possibly check all the criteria a new class has.

Heroes of the Storm hit this hurdle itself when new heroes slowed down. And if it was another Overwatch Hero or a Nexus hero, fans got upset it wasn't a Warcraft or Starcraft or Diablo pick. When they added Hogger, fans were upset it wasn't a 'Serious' character pick. This wasn't a problem when hero additions were frequent and we got one every couple months, it became an issue when we are waiting 6-12 months for each new hero and it being criticized for taking up valuable design space that could have been used for X highly anticipated hero instead.

Heroes of the Storm slowed down because it was deemed unprofitable. They, basically, gave up on the game. If WoW is to go the same route, then it's pretty much done.

Class skins would at least open up some options. And honestly speaking, it doesn't shut down the possibility of branching into new mechanics if Blizzard ever gets confident enough to do so. Add in the class now, gauge its popularity, and if its worth tackling new mechanics then they can absolutely rework a 'Class skin' into an actual Class. Think of it like the Warlock getting its Demonology rework, but instead of scrapping Metamorphosis, they simply kept it for Core Warlock and worked in Summoner gameplay for the Echo class. Thats how they could approach it, over time. It can be a spec-by-spec basis, it doesn't ever need immediate attention, and if it doesn't work out they can always roll back to the original Core class gameplay that just works.

Demonology was reworked into its original design - summoner of demons. It's not "new" per se.

"A great outline" is a far cry from being prescriptive, and thus a requisite. It really boils down to your own bias of preferring Tinker to be a class with their own unique gameplay than any other alternative. Whatever Tinker gameplay you refer to is rendered moot by the points already being made, and no "it's a great outline" isn't a strong argument.

I mean your investment on the Tinker concept is apparent tho, so there's an issue of magnitude here. Like several people have told you that the Tinker concept doesn't warrant being a new class because it goes beyond the idea of a cool gameplay and you have to consider the expansion wide context, so you really sound like those people that were "High Elf or Bust" and accept nothing less than High Elves as their own Allied Race.

This topic is forbidden, so i can't really answer you.

Do you mean where I just randomly attributed the notion of a New Class or a Class Skin to some examples? That's all that was, a set of examples. You can complete reverse them if you like. Or change the list altogether. The only point was to illustrate how Blizzard could pick and choose the system to use.

Oh, ok. I thought it was your personal sorting.

[Triceron]

I'm having a hard time believing it after all the development done for Sylvanas and Tyrande.

I know you do.

But that's something you gotta deal with. It's your hangup, and not something that is inherrently flawed with Class Skins being able to provide an option for.

I have a hard time believing Blizzard would have thrown Wildhammers aside and canonically folded them into Bronzebeard Dwarf customization options. That is the canonical representation of Wildhammers now; a Dwarf that has Archeology bonuses, Frost Resistance, Might of the Mountain and Stoneform. That's what Wildhammers are represented by. Do I agree with this? Hell no. But this is the reality of the situation - Blizzard has officially canonized Wildhammers through the Dwarf race and in turn represents them through all of the existing racials. And let us not forget - Cataclysm put a HUGE focus on Wildhammer Dwarves, much more than Dark Iron ever got in terms of world building and lore.

And as a fan of Wildhammers, we don't sit idly. Even if Blizzard doesn't give them much appreciation, there's other ways to go about it.

How about every other expansion, which was the norm until Shadowlands? They skip one expansion and you guys go into panic.

I mean you can continue to believe this, but it doesn't help your arguments here when we're discussing hypotheticals.


The Class skin system is a hypothetical system that we're discussing in the event that certain classes don't ever get their own playable class. It's a total Plan B system.

Your argument against Class Skins is that you're unable to accept this hypothetical situation, and you hold on to a belief that all your favourite classes will eventually become playable. I mean, the Class Skin system isn't attacking your beliefs.

It's like if we're talking about Plan A for ideal outcomes and Plan B for worst-case scenarios, your argument against Plan B is that you don't believe any worst-case scenario should happen. But discussing a Plan B doesn't mean it's gonna be any more likely than Plan A, it's just literally talking about alternative options for certain classes to actually be playable in the event that Blizzard can't get to all the fan favourites like Shadow Hunters, Priestess of the Moon, Wardens and Spellbreakers. At the end of the day, none of us are Blizzard Designers, so it's not like just talking about Dark Rangers or Tinkers as a Class Skin will end up making it a reality. It's not any case to dismiss the ideal outcome that Blizzard could make every class we want playable. The context of Class Skins is built around the hypothetical situation where we *wouldn't* get every fan favourite made into a playable class.

And as a Plan B hyppthetical situation, it extends to all potential classes right now, because we literally have no real insight on what Blizzard actually plans for new classes in the future. We don't even know if a new class is going to happen, let alone what class it would be. That is why right now Class Skin discussion is open to having something like a Tinker or a Dark Ranger be a Class Skin. For all we know, Blizzard might consider Demon Hunter as the final playable class in the roster, and that's part of the hypothetical at play here. It's not a mandate that it WILL happen, just a matter of being able to discuss different ideas.

And I personally have more investment in Class Skins as a concept because I see potential in it, and I'm a huge fan of the Warcraft skins in Heroes of the Storm that actually add a lot of value to non-Warcraft characters I may otherwise have no interest in playing as. Johanna is one big example. And it's exactly what Warcraft RTS has traditionally done as well, even back in Warcraft 1 and 2 where Orcs and Human factions were literally reskins of each other. I think there is a lot of potential and merit in retheming classes. I personally think that reworked graphics, sounds and animations can go quite a long way in representing a new class. And as I said earlier, it doesn't put any cap on opening up gameplay deviations later on, just as how Warcraft 1 literally mirrored the factions aside from the casters, WC2 slowly opened up deviations beyond casters by adding deviating passive upgrades (Archers more DPS, Trolls get regen), and WC3 eventually branched that off completely to very distinct factions. Class skins have this same potential with starting out as an Echo class, and branching out to become more of its own thing.