Why the negative response to all the positive changes in 9.1.5

[ippollite]

Im happy with the changes. Theyre all in the positive camp for me. But im a total casual. I dont play any of the three pillar content. Here's how i look at it. I unsubbed in January and havent been back since. Even with 9.1 i figured 'why resub now, when i could wait for the end of renown timegating and play the game how i want?'

So, thats what i did.

And now with these changes... (and also other changes from 9.0.5 onwards - more anima sources, korthia grinds, new floors in torghast etc etc), when i return (around 9.1.5 drop), i have so much stuff to play with again. I can farm all the transmogs from all the covenants, i can finally level alts through torghast (which doubles the fun of torghast for me since im getting xp on top of other things - i assume you get some soul ash?), ive got all of korthia and the renown unlocks (and story unlocks) to finish. Ive got all of LFR to play in. I can go solo legion raids for all that transmog i never collected. I can pug BFA raids if i can be bothered. I have so much i can collect and it feels fair on my time. So yeah. Im fine with it.

[Sevyvia]

Because we're years and years into the shit. What they need to do is knuckle down and just show consistency in being better. Not 1 patch, but several. They need to improve things now, and then they need to really show they've learned with whatever the next expansion is, because realistically, that's the shot they have at bringing people back. If WoW's population isn't so low at this point that it just gets put on life support instead.

[Gaidax]

hen I say their inability to put out a new game over the course of five years is more destructive to the studio than any systems complaint about World of Warcraft which is still paying for more than it's share of Blizzard's costs.

That's my biggest issue with Blizzard and forum's patron saint Mike Morhaime and "the boyz". How did they end up not having anything new in the pipeline for, not 5, but 7 years effectively is beyond me.

Why is nothing even being planned with Starcraft IP, I will never understand, just as I will never understand why it took 10 years to make Diablo 4 since their last Diablo game. And lets not even talk about making something new.

Many other studios would simply go belly up just like that. Blizzard is just lucky to have Warcraft cow to milk

- - - Updated - - -

Because we're years and years into the shit. What they need to do is knuckle down and just show consistency in being better. Not 1 patch, but several. They need to improve things now, and then they need to really show they've learned with whatever the next expansion is, because realistically, that's the shot they have at bringing people back. If WoW's population isn't so low at this point that it just gets put on life support instead.

I really expect a lot from 10.0, I hope all this shit that's going on will result in actual lessons learned. And I sure as hell hope 10.0 won't introduce yet another bolted down system that "millions of players will experience the game through lens of X choice and would not been possible had the choice did not hard pigeonhole you into only path".

[ippollite]

Because we're years and years into the shit. What they need to do is knuckle down and just show consistency in being better. Not 1 patch, but several. They need to improve things now, and then they need to really show they've learned with whatever the next expansion is, because realistically, that's the shot they have at bringing people back. If WoW's population isn't so low at this point that it just gets put on life support instead.

I dont disagree with this at all. 9.2 is the real 'how much have they really changed?' test. And i know there's gonna be ideas now in the trash which were built on 'more renown grinding' and more 'conduits' and more 'new legendaries' and more 'floors for torghast' and more 'new anima rewards'. The story, purely by happenstance actually gifts them the chance to really go big. And if they dont... and its more of 9.1 but with another new zone and another new casual gear grind, and another new seasonal affix, and another new 10 boss raid tier now with actual tier sets (plus all the above), then no one is going to care about 10.0.

[Pakheth]

Im happy with the changes. Theyre all in the positive camp for me. But im a total casual. I dont play any of the three pillar content. Here's how i look at it. I unsubbed in January and havent been back since. Even with 9.1 i figured 'why resub now, when i could wait for the end of renown timegating and play the game how i want?'

So, thats what i did.

And now with these changes... (and also other changes from 9.0.5 onwards - more anima sources, korthia grinds, new floors in torghast etc etc), when i return (around 9.1.5 drop), i have so much stuff to play with again. I can farm all the transmogs from all the covenants, i can finally level alts through torghast (which doubles the fun of torghast for me since im getting xp on top of other things - i assume you get some soul ash?), ive got all of korthia and the renown unlocks (and story unlocks) to finish. Ive got all of LFR to play in. I can go solo legion raids for all that transmog i never collected. I can pug BFA raids if i can be bothered. I have so much i can collect and it feels fair on my time. So yeah. Im fine with it.

I'm in the same boat and this is the first time I have felt I should do this. There is no point for me to play now when I can do it later and get all the systems working optimally. Drip feeding like they do now with cumbersome systems just keep me from not wanting to play. I went through this in Legion and BfA, only difference being Legion had so much to do I didn't really mind, but I did in BfA and now SL.

And I want to iterate that the changes are good, I like the new customisation options and the Island Expedition changes, it's just if I wait I get even more so why should I play now?

[Kralljin]

That's my biggest issue with Blizzard and forum's patron saint Mike Morhaime and "the boyz". How did they end up not having anything new in the pipeline for, not 5, but 7 years effectively is beyond me.

>Launch Hearthstone
>Becomes a hit
>Found multiple "Incubation chambers" focusing on small titles
>They're a waste of resources and have produced literally nothing in like 5-6 years
>Cancel 2nd Diablo 3 Expansion (It's usually easier to produce an expansion than a fresh game)
>Waste resources on project "Fenris" (some progenitor of Diablo 4)
>Throw way too many resources at HotS (supposedly, the HotS Team was at one point pretty huge)
>Have no good plan to follow up on Overwatch

It's a combination of bad decisions and the teams themselves not being able to get their shit straight.
My theory is that because Blizzard supposedly overvalues seniority, you had people in charge of projects that frankly were not suited for their position, peter principle and all that.

Now throw in Bobby Kotick holding the reins a bit tighter from 2013 and onwards, one can guess that this acted as a catalyst for the growing disaster.

Why is nothing even being planned with Starcraft IP, I will never understand

Because the only thing outside of RTS within the Starcraft universe have been FPS, RTS has been deemed DOA by management and FPS people work on OW2.

[crusadernero]

Well...I still enjoy the game but will now do so without visiting this forum. At the end of the day, there are like 200 ppl online regularly who are allowed to post....and there are so many who by their own admission don't even play and just come here to defecate.

Who needs that shit in their life? I don't...so I am off.

True. Probably better off not be on these forums and just enjoy playing games.

[Makabreska]

Why is nothing even being planned with Starcraft IP, I will never understand, just as I will never understand why it took 10 years to make Diablo 4 since their last Diablo game. And lets not even talk about making something new.

It's such an obvious answer: RTS games are deemed to not have enough appeal/generate enough revenue. That's it. They could maybe make a different type of game in that universe, but that is always a risk, so they stick to tried and true formulas for $$$ generation. Their last risky move was OW, and it's now lagging behind. And with Diablo I would say it was also about ongoing revenue, seeing how D3 had like no microtransactions (apart from Necro pack). And TBH, SC2 had like 9 years of support, that is no small thing (and Blizz is generally known for having long intervals between sequels).

[ippollite]

I'm in the same boat and this is the first time I have felt I should do this. There is no point for me to play now when I can do it later and get all the systems working optimally. Drip feeding like they do now with cumbersome systems just keep me from not wanting to play. I went through this in Legion and BfA, only difference being Legion had so much to do I didn't really mind, but I did in BfA and now SL.

And I want to iterate that the changes are good, I like the new customisation options and the Island Expedition changes, it's just if I wait I get even more so why should I play now?

Totally logical. I mean, its always been totally logical since timegating started creeping in (i think it was suramar that really kicked it off - at least in terms of story locking). But back then, i just had fun playing the rest of the game so it never felt so... 'transactional'. Why i quit was really a consequence of this. I'd log in after every reset, do my weeklies (which totaled about 3 hours of gameplay), then id have anima farming (really frustratingly time consuming for the rewards), and covenant dailies (which were so predictable - 2 gold, 1 conduit), that i lost the urge to bother. So i decided once the story campaign ended for 9.0 i'd take a break and wait for it to all unlock so i can go at my own pace. 9.0.5 brought nothing to the table for me. And 9.1 brought another timegate. So i figured id wait for 9.1.5 or even 9.2 before dipping my toes in. That they've decided to make all these qol changes though, makes 9.1.5 super attractive.

On that topic, i think the next big structural change is going to be a significant loosening of the reigns on BOA. Blizzard have always been really tight about opening up BoA... arguably for several reasons (alt identity and other more cynical reasons). But i think if they've learned anything from FF14 its that people just like having a lot of stuff tied to their... lets not call it a character... lets call it 'an account'. Rather than making you play less, its pretty evident it encourages people to play more. Obviously i dont mean all classes on one character or anything like that, but if given a choice to unlock a bunch of stuff on one character that makes it available to your alts, players are going to be MORE excited to play their alts and spend more time playing the game. Ive a feeling this penny has finally dropped. ETA: If i see this kind of change, then im going to be significantly more inclined to believe we're seeing a philosophical change in design and not just a mea culpa (which is really what this patch seems to be... so far).

[Bloomer]

Why the negative response to all the positive changes in 9.1.5

Because maybe all the """changes""" are braindead and does nothing to improve the game? I am sorry but I am not going to give the team any kind of praise for adding new hair colors and tattoos.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It's the patteren. It's happened for the past 3 or 4 expansions. A stubborn refusal to listen to feedback. In fact, at times an almost adversarial relationship with those that provide it. Then the all out defense of the decision to ignore it. But suddenly once the bleeding starts and players get fed up enough to dip it happens. The apology tour. The guys we should have listened. Give us another chance and you know what I accepted it a couple times. But it's getting frustrating.

It's sad because it kind of proves most of these systems, thier ideas, aren't ultra terrible once these slight adjustments are made. Probably going forward after 9.1.5 the covenant system won't be that bad. Hell, it might even be good or great. But why in the hell did we have to deal with it being utter dog shit for a year? When it was pointed out over and over again this is the adjustments that were needed to make it go from trash to probably a great system.

Alpha and beta need to become actual testing again instead of an advertisement. Listen and make adjustments in that time and not during the customers dime. They need to get it though thier heads that adjustments to a system to make it good or great is not an assault on thier idea or life's work. It's something that's perfectly normal and delivers a superior product and system in the end. The track record proves it. Just listen before every dips to get it right for fucks sake. It's all most people are asking for.

People have lost faith. Hard to blame them. Earn it back by actually changing.

[Zantera]

It just boils down to the simple fact that people love to complain. If something is fixed they find something else to complain about.

[Gaidax]

It's such an obvious answer: RTS games are deemed to not have enough appeal/generate enough revenue. That's it.

That's a bunch of bullshit and you know it. How much Starcraft 2 sold cumulatively? What, you think if they'd make legit new Startcraft trilogy with Starcraft 3 they would not sell many multiple millions?

People would gobble it up just like that, because the following is huge and as Starcraft 2 shown - it's quite a bit more than RTS seeing ludicrous custom maps (if you can even call them that) it has.

No, it's not because "RTS outdated", it's because they are paralyzed with fear of fucking it up and their years of creative bankruptcy, so the decision makers just can't make the call.

[MoanaLisa]

It's a combination of bad decisions and the teams themselves not being able to get their shit straight.
My theory is that because Blizzard supposedly overvalues seniority, you had people in charge of projects that frankly were not suited for their position, peter principle and all that.

Now throw in Bobby Kotick holding the reins a bit tighter from 2013 and onwards, one can guess that this acted as a catalyst for the growing disaster.

Your theory is part of it. I will add to that the failure of Titan was a near-death trauma for Blizzard's developers and has affected the studio to this day. Yeah, they managed to do Overwatch out of the scraps but they haven't been capable of "being Blizzard" (if you catch my drift) since then.

As for Kotick: The company was mismanaged for years and if anything Kotick should probably have been more of a presence. I don't know that Kotick tightened the reins in 2013 or not. Morhaime said that no it wasn't a problem. Then he left and then said it was. It's pretty clear though that Kotick should have been doing something because Blizzard's inability to release fresh product has worn out their existing IP's and long-term decimated their customer base, potential and real. Looked at objectively and taking the emotion out of it Kotick has every right to be pissed about what's been happening at Blizzard which was capped off by this lawsuit. Most all of that is on Morhaime who set up the culture of "Release it when it's ready" which is something they've used to overpromise content and features, create extravagant budgets, and miss deadlines (see WC3: The Lame Return). Morhaime also created their corporate office culture which is another thing now on someone's plate. Brack had his opportunity to change that which he didn't do (and paid for it).

The founders have now all left, leaving Blizzard flailing for a direction for years while they sit around their pools and check their phones to see how many millions they have left.

[dope_danny]

"Why the negative reaction to them making changes everyone cried for in beta after charging a year of subscription for that horrible system?"

Its a head scratcher alright.

[BigZik]

Because this is the third expansion in a row the game was intentionally released in a bad state that is more focused on drawing out playtime with redundant systems and chores, while ignoring feedback and problems that people pointed out within the first hour of such a feature or system getting released in alpha tests.

This has nothing to do with the new management or giving them the benefit of the doubt. This is just people being sick going through the motions again and seeing the situation for what it really is, and a lot more needs to happen than a blog post where they basically aknowledge they saw the feedback during alpha and chose to ignore it for a third time.

Actions, not words.

[crusadernero]

5 minutes of study can tell why people shit on the game
It is both too hard and too easy at the same time
both too grindy and nothing to do at the same time
Too elitist/hardcore and casual at the same time
You can fly or can't fly is both a problem for people at the same time
You can pug or you have to be with guilds at the same time
M+ exists but also M+ doesn't reward enough at the same time
Mythic Exists or Lower difficulties exist at the same time.

Simply put no matter what people gonna bitch because they want polar opposites in the same game and every single one of those people have to be equally catered to otherwise you fail as a business and a game designer.

5 minutes of study can tell you that people have been complaining about wow since forever, especially after BC launched as the first xpac.
The game can be hard if you want it to be, or just play at easy level. Whats wrong with that? If to hard, people are left out of content. If to easy, people dont get a challenge.
How is SL grindy? What do you need to grind except from a couple of runs in Torghast?
wow has always been elitist/hardcore no matter the version of wow. look at classic. Piss easy game, still lots of elitist & hardcore mentality.
Yes, flying is a weird one with Blizzard. They should just give it up and give us flying once all zones are cleared.
Since wow launched, heck even since MMORPGs came about, people have joined guilds and pugs.
I would argue M+ was a welcome addition in Legion, but since then its become stail and has ruined the dungeon experience overall. m+ does reward you greatly though.

So yeah, this is probably something one could argue about forever. The challenge for Blizzard is to find the sweet spot. To much//to little, easy//difficult, to rewarding//no reward and so on.

I think for the most part, wow would be better of if most content delivered decent enough content that most people had access to. Very few does mythic, less and less people do m+. Those who do m+, does it because they have to(vault gear).

[Makabreska]

That's a bunch of bullshit and you know it. How much Starcraft 2 sold cumulatively? What, you think if they'd make legit new Startcraft trilogy with Starcraft 3 they would not sell many multiple millions?

People would gobble it up just like that, because the following is huge and as Starcraft 2 shown - it's quite a bit more than RTS seeing ludicrous custom maps (if you can even call them that) it has.

No, it's not because "RTS outdated", it's because they are paralyzed with fear of fucking it up and their years of creative bankruptcy, so the decision makers just can't make the call.

You keep having this picture of Blizzard like they are not a 100% money driven company, when everything shows they are. Yes, SC3 or w/e would always sell well (like everything Blizzard does), but AAA companies want more. Why take risk and put huge rescources in development and marketing of a new game, when they can simply keep monetizing current games? They are not paralized, nor bancrupt creatively. They just follow the AAA guidelines of maxing revenue. It's a small miracle they decided to make D4.

[crusadernero]

But you miss important thing - leveling in SL is not leveling in old WoW. Saying that WoW was alt friendly in "good old days" is complete nonsense. And expacs pre-Legion had their mandatory chores as well - attunements in TBC, legendary questlines in MoP/WoD etc.

Now we have both fast leveling and only fraction of mandatory stuff to do compared to Legion/BfA. When you reach 60, you can be in Korthia and do relevant content 5 minutes later. Everything has clear end, there is 0 "infinite" progression.

Only last two (important) things I find irritating about alts are mandatory campaign (takes 2-3 hours, but still repeating max level campaign is no fun) and smaller issues about 50-60 leveling. 9.1.5 fixes both.

True, but in later years its become especially horrid. SL aint that bad overall and its going to get better. Im glad for that.

[Revamp Man]

Some of the negative reaction is because people didn't get it how they wanted it, or what they wanted.

Personally I’m negative about it because of the fact they had someone type out “millions of players experienced shadowlands through the lens of their favorite covenant and they wouldn’t have been able to do that if the restrictions weren’t there”

I don’t like it when they can’t just say “we were wrong” and instead pat themselves on the back because they are making changes that were suggested a year ago and try to say “well if we did make these changes the game wouldn’t have been as fun”