Spoonfeeding is bad for the health of the game?

[OokOok]

M+ requires more skill than Mythic raiding so I’m fine with that, especially the higher up you go, because then you get exposed if you don’t interrupt or cc.

We found the person who is 3/10H with his guild but speaks on matters in Mythic and gives opinions as if he's cutting edge.

[InflaterMouse]

I too played classic a bit recently and i loved the slow pace of leveling, that is what wow was. i read somewhere it takes a seasoned leveler player preplanning etc 36hours to level from 0-60 in class, that is the original expac. there is no rush to get end game gear if your actually enjoying being in the game, leveling yor profs etc. i mean fuck sake they even simplified that now too, you only have to level the expansions profession not all the way. dumbed the game down to nothing.

Now it takes 16 hours to level from 1-60 in retail, eight expansions thats 2 hours per expansion. or just sit in dungeons all the way dont even see the world, the game has FULLY lost its identity.

Thats why wow is bleeding subs, all the geeks (i was one too) that were into the story like it was a religion, it doesnt exist anymore, its just turned in a free spoonfeeding game behind timegate for kids.

See I feel like this is subject for interpretation. Personally, I feel like if you have leveled a class that every class you level after should give you an option to progress very quickly. From someone that has played since the end of vanilla I don't care if I ever level a toon per the old standards. To me from the first time I played the game until now I have always preferred the end game content. That is my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong that I don't care as much about the story as you do. Doesn't make you right that you care about it more than me either, it's a matter of opinion.

Leveling won't keep a game going, taking for ever to reach max level won't either. The players and devs knew that in vanilla and made changes going into TBC to make leveling easier and more efficient. When you reach end game and have experienced the story taking you there most folks I know have no desire to live it again and take another week to level. And the average for seasoned levelers in classic was about 2 levels per hour. Only the power leveling guys beat that.

[Redroniksre]

I agree, they should make levelling from 1 - 60 take roughly a year played to reach. On top of that no gear should drop from any content other than mythic raids, all mobs should be able to one shot you, and cities should be changed to be giant showoff pads for casuals to praise elitists for their wonderous achievements. In a video game. Truly the peak WoW experience.

[OokOok]

What people dont get is by accommadating the people that dont have time you completely dumb down and squish the game for the people that do, thats the whole point, by allowing all of the players that play only 2 hours a week to be best geared etc your crippling the enjoyment of the people that play 40+

So congratulations 2hour a week players you have gotten what you wanted, a game that is losing tons and tons of players.

What you dont realise is say if you lose your job or decide to take a vacation for 2 months and play wow, there wont be much there for you because the game is no longer designed for people that play alot.

hence all the people leaving after 2 active months.

If you only play 2 hour a week what makes you so entitled to all the best end game gear? so you feel good too? the people who play more than you have nothing to do because everything is handed out to accommadate you.

See the comment about glaives? when everything is handed to everyone for free it loses its value. call it legendary all you want but its not legendary anymore its just a free handout item that everyone gets so its not special hence all the items your obtaining have no worth.

I just got changeling in my weekly vault and im disgusted by the feeling that i have about it, i just looted bis trinket and i feel NOTHING. not bothered, free handout by blizzard, did i deserve that? no. so it doesnt mean anything to me. at least i dont have to run mists 40 times for it. yay less play time.

Yes it's the 2h a week players who are causing the exodus of subs and not Blizzard themselves, like what? lol
Also if you're on a 2 month vacation is your biggest concern is nothing to do in wow, you need to get out more.

[muto]

We found the person who is 3/10H with his guild but speaks on matters in Mythic and gives opinions as if he's cutting edge.

Not playing currently, but cleared prior tiers.
Raiding is not hard. It has a ceiling. Mythic plus does not have a ceiling. It continues to scale until it becomes impossible due to not being able to survive. And things like not interrupting or cc’ing become way more punishing the higher up you go. And sure there are some raid fights where you need to kick, but there’s a weak aura that puts a box above a mobs head, and shows a number for kick order. It’s a joke.

[crusadernero]

I too played classic a bit recently and i loved the slow pace of leveling, that is what wow was. i read somewhere it takes a seasoned leveler player preplanning etc 36hours to level from 0-60 in class, that is the original expac. there is no rush to get end game gear if your actually enjoying being in the game, leveling yor profs etc. i mean fuck sake they even simplified that now too, you only have to level the expansions profession not all the way. dumbed the game down to nothing.

Now it takes 16 hours to level from 1-60 in retail, eight expansions thats 2 hours per expansion. or just sit in dungeons all the way dont even see the world, the game has FULLY lost its identity.

Thats why wow is bleeding subs, all the geeks (i was one too) that were into the story like it was a religion, it doesnt exist anymore, its just turned in a free spoonfeeding game behind timegate for kids.

To be fair, quick leveling has been a thing since BC launched years ago. The slow paced leveling worked in vanilla cause the base game is in such a huge landmass with EK/K. You use quite alot of time just running/flying around in the huge world. In retail theres portals, flying mounts and more. We cant expect from Blizzard new xpacs in same size as EK/K.

Also - leveling in retail has been streamlined cause people are sick and tierd of leveling yet again through various zones. For years people have moaned about it taking to long and I can understand many of them, cause once you have done it several times, it gets rather tedious.

BTW - when classic relaunched alot of people just power lvld to max, instead of actually enjoying it. They did whatever it took, like spending hours upon hours inside SM. So its not like this is just a retail thing. Seems like most people dislike the leveling & the journey to max level. People want to reach it ASAP and gear up.

[Mokuna]

By the time you get a full "mythic" gear doing M+ the mythic raiding is already way nerfed/trivialised by gear/accessible to casuals
Not to mention mythic gear has some unique perks (domination gear, trinkets, special weapons) M+ won't have.

On the difficulty scale they're not comparable at all, raiding is about having 20 people coordinate for 5 to 15 minutes to execute more or less often really punishing and sometimes complex mechanics and once you figured out the boss you kill it and it's pretty much done for the tier, which means players have to fail little and be efficient at learning to kill the bosses faster in terms of time spent.

M+ is way simpler design, the mobs mechanics don't change beetween a regular mythic dungeon and a +25 and are often straight forward, even if scaling often means you have to handle it differently, it requires way less coordination and more knowledge about routes/cheese, it heavily favors players bashing their head against the same simple content 500 times in a row, scaled up everytime, finding ways to do bigger pulls and cheese, it's more comparable to speedrunning in a way, and it attracts different players, including slow learners that could never raid mythic at a good level.

I think the current design is pretty good, raiders can get dungeon loots running 15s which aren't trivial but quite easy to pug, and dungeon only players can get progressively better and better gear from vaults so they're not hitting a gear wall that would force them to raid to do bigger keys (you could argue for the biggest keys you want mythic domination gear but you can get a full set killing the first 5 mythic bosses which is a small amount of investment for a player that wants to play at the highest level)

[odamienskii]

By the time you get a full "mythic" gear doing M+ the mythic raiding is already way nerfed/trivialised by gear/accessible to casuals
Not to mention mythic gear has some unique perks (domination gear, trinkets, special weapons) M+ won't have.

On the difficulty scale they're not comparable at all, raiding is about having 20 people coordinate for 5 to 15 minutes to execute more or less often really punishing and sometimes complex mechanics and once you figured out the boss you kill it and it's pretty much done for the tier, which means players have to fail little and be efficient at learning to kill the bosses faster in terms of time spent.

M+ is way simpler design, the mobs mechanics don't change beetween a regular mythic dungeon and a +25 and are often straight forward, even if scaling often means you have to handle it differently, it requires way less coordination and more knowledge about routes/cheese, it heavily favors players bashing their head against the same simple content 500 times in a row, scaled up everytime, finding ways to do bigger pulls and cheese, it's more comparable to speedrunning in a way, and it attracts different players, including slow learners that could never raid mythic at a good level.

I think the current design is pretty good, raiders can get dungeon loots running 15s which aren't trivial but quite easy to pug, and dungeon only players can get progressively better and better gear from vaults so they're not hitting a gear wall that would force them to raid to do bigger keys (you could argue for the biggest keys you want mythic domination gear but you can get a full set killing the first 5 mythic bosses which is a small amount of investment for a player that wants to play at the highest level)

Sorry but im going to open your eyes a little bit here. m+ is not way simpler than raiding when you push higher here is why.

every single pack has different abilities, different things to interupt, different dangers. every boss has its own mechanics, 5 bosses in every dungeon. countless trash packs. routes to consider.

If your running 15s, 16s even 17s you wont need to pay attention to any of this because tank can just eat it to the face and the healer can heal through it, it dont matter.

Now compare bosses in a raid, you legitimately repeat the same process over, and over, and over untill everyone in your raid does it collectively as a team. you have to watch maybe at most 3 or 4 mechanics, there might be a phase where you do something different, thats it. you repeat that over and over, the hard part is getting 20 people to do it together, thats where the difficulty in raiding is, as an individual the difficulty of a raid is laughable.

Now compare m+, you have to watch for interupt on target a, while avoiding ability from target b and focusing target c. how on earth you think raiding is harder then high m+ is beyond me, well, there is a simple explanation, you havent experienced it so dont know what your talking about. ive experienced both and raiding is bloody boring. repeat the same rotation/mechanic for 9minutes, wipe, go again.

[potis]

snip

No, M+ is always the same, and it never changes because the mechanics are not really "random", 9/10 casts are on the tank etc, generally any decent player considers them a joke for the intended levels, the higher keys arent any harder mechanically, its bad scaling combined with cheesing stuff, add maximum leash range to tanks and watch the keys go to -5 from what level they already are.

99% of the spell mechanics are single target and dispelable, any decent healer already knows and removes it before it even ticks at 0.5 seconds.

Mythic raiding difficulty comes from the "unlucky" line ups and the inability of the players to think ahead, which when you have 20 people and the boss debuffs 5 people, its completely different.

In M+ you know that after you Interrupt Ability A, he is gonna cast Ability B to a different target, Ability A is 1 shot to the tank, Ability B is dispelable, thats the mob, from +1 to +50, and its gonna be a 40 second fight, maybe 1 minute for fortified.

In the Mythic fight you cant know "Player A used his reduction for some reason previously 1 minute ago, and now that he has the non-dispelable dot, the big explosion is coming and because it ticked 0.2 seconds before, and it lined up to the big explosion, he died".

Go figure when the whole raid gains +30% stamina everything magically becomes easier in Mythic raiding, since the line ups end up leaving people at 10%, and not -20%.

Neither are "hard" for the good players, but the math and the way the game speed works is and will always be favorable to Mythic raiding.

[Soikona]

M+ requires more skill than Mythic raiding so I’m fine with that, especially the higher up you go, because then you get exposed if you don’t interrupt or cc.

I would disagree. I reached 2.6k last week, and I would say it’s defo easier than anything I have done raid wise. Just interrupt and stun and things live a bit longer and hit a bit harder.

Now, I am just a shammy healer. I don’t know enough about DPS but I have the same things to interrupt and CC so surely it’s even easier for them. Anyone that struggles in M+, either can’t focus for the 30 odd min or just can’t remember what to do on each pack.

[odamienskii]

No, M+ is always the same, and it never changes because the mechanics are not really "random", 9/10 casts are on the tank etc, generally any decent player considers them a joke for the intended levels, the higher keys arent any harder mechanically, its bad scaling combined with cheesing stuff, add maximum leash range to tanks and watch the keys go to -5 from what level they already are.

99% of the spell mechanics are single target and dispelable, any decent healer already knows and removes it before it even ticks at 0.5 seconds.

Mythic raiding difficulty comes from the "unlucky" line ups and the inability of the players to think ahead, which when you have 20 people and the boss debuffs 5 people, its completely different.

In M+ you know that after you Interrupt Ability A, he is gonna cast Ability B to a different target, Ability A is 1 shot to the tank, Ability B is dispelable, thats the mob, from +1 to +50, and its gonna be a 40 second fight, maybe 1 minute for fortified.

In the Mythic fight you cant know "Player A used his reduction for some reason previously 1 minute ago, and now that he has the non-dispelable dot, the big explosion is coming and because it ticked 0.2 seconds before, and it lined up to the big explosion, he died".

Go figure when the whole raid gains +30% stamina everything magically becomes easier in Mythic raiding, since the line ups end up leaving people at 10%, and not -20%.

Neither are "hard" for the good players, but the math and the way the game speed works is and will always be favorable to Mythic raiding.

the affixes change every week meaning the class importance will change, example priests on bursting week, hunters and druids on raging, boomies with trees on necrotic. tanks gonna want to kite? need a frost mage. the affixes also effect routes, the level of the key also effects routes, whats great for 20 wont be good enough for say 23. whats good on tyranical doesnt work on fortified. idiots rock up on a tyranical week with a fortified route because it worked the week before and vice versa, they dont understand the game but will argue till they are blue in the face they know best because it worked the week before. probly because thats what they are used to in raids, what works doesnt change week to week.

Then you got mythic raiding, a single boss mechanic that you repeat over and over again untill 20 people do it correctly together, all raiding is, watch timers, move from point a to point b when you get alert. and the majority of guilds have raid leaders calling the timers out, so your legit told. move. and off you move, then when all listen the boss dies "yay look at me im 8 mythic" raiding is a joke to good players.

Im telling you now when i raid im bored out of my mind, waiting for the noobs to do the mechanic i mastered 10 years ago and doing it for 4 hours at a time? no thanks. i much prefer m+ where every key is different and you have to think about it every week. nothing changes in mythic raiding apart from blizzard make it..........easier......with nerfs.

[Surfd]

If your a casual you are full end game mythic geared in 3 months by running 15s

If you are a "casual" you aren't running Mythic 15s......... like, that's the most unrealistic definition of "casual" I have ever heard.

[Ryxon]

Speak for yourself, the game is not tailored to your personal preference. If it's so bad then unsub and get a life, instead of crying a game is not how you want it to be.

[odamienskii]

I would disagree. I reached 2.6k last week, and I would say it’s defo easier than anything I have done raid wise. Just interrupt and stun and things live a bit longer and hit a bit harder.

Now, I am just a shammy healer. I don’t know enough about DPS but I have the same things to interrupt and CC so surely it’s even easier for them. Anyone that struggles in M+, either can’t focus for the 30 odd min or just can’t remember what to do on each pack.

yeah i just rerolled shammy healer, 2.1k in 8 days 230ilvl, my resto druid 2.5k. damn sure il be 2.6k by the end of the month piece of piss with the right class.

5k dps overall? never seen anything like it, crazy.
12 sec interupt?
aoe stun?
30% hp increase for a minute?
40% damage reduction defensive?
THREE big heal cds?
feels like im cheating not going to lie.

[Mokuna]

Sorry but im going to open your eyes a little bit here. m+ is not way simpler than raiding when you push higher here is why.

every single pack has different abilities, different things to interupt, different dangers. every boss has its own mechanics, 5 bosses in every dungeon. countless trash packs. routes to consider.

If your running 15s, 16s even 17s you wont need to pay attention to any of this because tank can just eat it to the face and the healer can heal through it, it dont matter.

Now compare bosses in a raid, you legitimately repeat the same process over, and over, and over untill everyone in your raid does it collectively as a team. you have to watch maybe at most 3 or 4 mechanics, there might be a phase where you do something different, thats it. you repeat that over and over, the hard part is getting 20 people to do it together, thats where the difficulty in raiding is, as an individual the difficulty of a raid is laughable.

Now compare m+, you have to watch for interupt on target a, while avoiding ability from target b and focusing target c. how on earth you think raiding is harder then high m+ is beyond me, well, there is a simple explanation, you havent experienced it so dont know what your talking about. ive experienced both and raiding is bloody boring. repeat the same rotation/mechanic for 9minutes, wipe, go again.

Mobs have 2 to 3 mechanics at most, interrupting is not a hard task at all that's one of the most basic mechanic in the game, also i didn't say it was easier i said it was simpler and it has to be by design, you can't design an encounter around 5 people the same way you design it around a raid, which is the reason they cut the old 10 man heroic(now mythic). A lot of cheesing can be done with big pulls with insane cds such as the current guardian incarn, ashen, moonkin cds that make the tank pretty much immortal and can nuke a pack before it does anything

I'm aware of how rough the highest end keys (25+) can be where mechanics that are completly irrelevant otherwise become deadly and the already dangerous ones require some insane cheese and i don't consider them easy, but the individual mechanics are straight forward, and at this point the people running mythic+ have done the dungeons hundreds of times , whereas in a mythic raid most bosses take under 50 pulls to progress.

The high end mythic raiders have cleared the raid for a while now, while the high end mythic + players are running NW or PF for the 900th time, which is why i said you can't really compare the content.

I've done my share of high M+ keys in the past and i just don't find it really fun, and i have no incentive to run them so i just don't(and a lot of players are in my situation right now which is why so few high keys are completed) , if somehow they decided to make 20s give the best gear or a unique reward, i think most serious players would get used to it and run +20s like they run +15s right now because nothing really changes apart from the scaling so the entry barrier isn't really a thing

[odamienskii]

If you are a "casual" you aren't running Mythic 15s......... like, that's the most unrealistic definition of "casual" I have ever heard.

they are though, they are running it with guildies, getting 2k (all 15s) and then entering pugs. doing 4k dps overall in 245 ilvl.

- - - Updated - - -

Mobs have 2 to 3 mechanics at most, interrupting is not a hard task at all that's one of the most basic mechanic in the game, also i didn't say it was easier i said it was simpler and it has to be by design, you can't design an encounter around 5 people the same way you design it around a raid, which is the reason they cut the old 10 man heroic(now mythic). A lot of cheesing can be done with big pulls with insane cds such as the current guardian incarn, ashen, moonkin cds that make the tank pretty much immortal and can nuke a pack before it does anything

I'm aware of how rough the highest end keys (25+) can be where mechanics that are completly irrelevant otherwise become deadly and the already dangerous ones require some insane cheese and i don't consider them easy, but the individual mechanics are straight forward, and at this point the people running mythic+ have done the dungeons hundreds of times , whereas in a mythic raid most bosses take under 50 pulls to progress.

The high end mythic raiders have cleared the raid for a while now, while the high end mythic + players are running NW or PF for the 900th time, which is why i said you can't really compare the content.

I've done my share of high M+ keys in the past and i just don't find it really fun, and i have no incentive to run them so i just don't(and a lot of players are in my situation right now which is why so few high keys are completed) , if somehow they decided to make 20s give the best gear or a unique reward, i think most serious players would get used to it and run +20s like they run +15s right now because nothing really changes apart from the scaling so the entry barrier isn't really a thing

Its not simpler by design at all, raids have 1 static mechanic that never changes

m+ has hundreds of strategies that change depending on a wide range of things. pull size, week, etc etc. im not explaining it again. couldnt be any damn clearer, its not even a debate.

and just wow, nothing really changes apart from the scaling. so you dont change the routes then? you realise 20s are easy too right? define high keys. my definition of a high key is 24/25/26 and above. your definition is quite clearly 20 which is low. higher than 15s sure, but still low on the effect the mechanics have.

[faunski]

I would disagree. I reached 2.6k last week, and I would say it’s defo easier than anything I have done raid wise. Just interrupt and stun and things live a bit longer and hit a bit harder.

Now, I am just a shammy healer. I don’t know enough about DPS but I have the same things to interrupt and CC so surely it’s even easier for them. Anyone that struggles in M+, either can’t focus for the 30 odd min or just can’t remember what to do on each pack.

While I agree somewhat, 2.6k is nowhere close enough to be talking about high level m+. It's still within puggable content. Raiding and m+ are not really comparable in terms of difficulty. The difficulty in m+ comes from everything you don't expect. At a certain level you need to play perfectly around players CDs and adapt when required. It's not easier or more difficult, it's just a different game. However I do think current 25+ keys require more from a single player mechanicwise than raids ever have.

[odamienskii]

While I agree somewhat, 2.6k is nowhere close enough to be talking about high level m+. It's still within puggable content. Raiding and m+ are not really comparable in terms of difficulty. The difficulty in m+ comes from everything you don't expect. At a certain level you need to play perfectly around players CDs and adapt when required. It's not easier or more difficult, it's just a different game. However I do think current 25+ keys require more from a single player mechanicwise than raids ever have.

i agree, you got 40minutes of multiple mechanics of both trash and 4/5 bosses that you have to play perfectly including defensives, non overlapping interupts, control. else the key is dead and lowers a level.

vs 9 minutes of 20 ppl if you wipe then go again no problem.

And agree about 2.6k being in the lower bracket of "high keys"

My highest key attempted was 24 halls on resto druid where my dps just wasnt enough, hence the reroll. doesnt matter that i have 22s/23s in time, try getting into 22 keys as a resto druid, decline decline decline.

[Daffan]

If the entire raid is competent absolutely. The only challenging part about Mythic raiding is progressing when you have a couple players that always seem to toaster out, which seems to be the case for most guilds that aren't like top 100 to 200. Mythic Sire is a good example. There's like 3 things on that fight that are one shots; messing up the lines (p1), getting hit by lines (p2, p3), and getting knocked off the level (p2, p3). And while I hardly ever died to those mechanics I had to endure a couple people dying to that shit every pull, and usually always the same handful of people. The fight wasn't hard though. It was literally don't stand in the bad, and don't run into each other in p3.

This has to be a larp or a joke

[scubi666stacy]

If you are a "casual" you aren't running Mythic 15s......... like, that's the most unrealistic definition of "casual" I have ever heard.

I am a casual and while I would be capable of running m+15 on occasion, I simply cannot find groups most of the time because my RIO is not good enough, and I don't make groups myself because I cannot lead them due to lack of experience, also get bad keys. So... if you can gear up with m+ easily, then you are not a casual.