I feel optimistic about WoW

[Empower]

Why did you have to attune every character you wanted to enter Karazhan, SSC, TK, BT, Hyjal in TBC?

Its a completely different class and character. Why should you be able to easily be just as powerful as a main where the majority of a player's time is spent?

The whole concept of you can be extremely good at 1 thing, or mediocre to decent at many.

Few problems with that example... one I attunements from tbc came from the content in question it was dungeon to raids to raids to raids.

The problem with conduits and choreghast is they are systems outside of that progression and have no place naturally in it nor are they challenging themselves.

Why should my power not be equal to the content I bested rather then the rewards from doing a trivial grind over a long period of time?

[Milfshaked]

Incorrect. Bellular made a video with imaginary numbers and you're using his shitty unsubstantiated talking points to support your negative opinion of the current state of the game. You can do this, but please don't pretend like his "data" is any more relevant than a 5-year-old drawing with crayons on the wall simply because you agree with his shit take and made-up information.

You should not deny reality just because you dont like it. Bellulars video contained trend extrapolations from objective verifiable data. Sticking your head into the sand and throwing a tantrum just because you dont like the facts is not really mature.

With the absense of better data, approximations and analyzing trends is the best we can do. If you have a better idea, be my guest.

[Kalocy Jim]

I mean, if you completely reframe what you believe is "accurate" to personal preference, of course it's not going to be "accurate" by that standard. But it is factually true. WoW has a myriad of different stories that can only be experienced by one faction. It has some choices that allow you to experience narratives from a certain perspective outside of faction considerations. You cannot experience all classes on a single character, and you cannot even experience all roles on most.

If you like to experience the whole breadth of a game, WoW requires you to have multiple characters. I think this contributes to a lot of the fatigue going on right now, particularly when the repetitious elements are so... pronounced. FFXIV does not require you to have multiple characters. In fact, I think it skews too far in the opposite direction in that you are actively discouraged from maintaining multiple characters.

Fair points.

Let me ask. What to you are the roadblocks you see that deter you from having fun with your alts that wasn't addressed with the potential 9.1.5 changes. Because from what I can tell:

-Freely Swappable Covenants - you can now FOTM any character in any covenant.
-Renown Catchup System - easily gain renown on any alt by buying a token for 500g that instantly gives you level 40 Renown. Renown comes from basically any source now to catch you up to the highest levels on any alt quickly.
-Conduit Energy Removed - easily swap conduits for any situation now.

I mean, I feel it was already easy to get an alt to max renown and be at 90-95% of the power that my main is at, but with these changes it makes it even faster and easier.

Am I missing something? Whats not to be optimistic about in light of the recent announced changes? It seriously feels like they are headed in the right direction, even though I don't fully agree with some of the "giving into player demands" changes being made.

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Few problems with that example... one I attunements from tbc came from the content in question it was dungeon to raids to raids to raids.

The problem with conduits and choreghast is they are systems outside of that progression and have no place naturally in it nor are they challenging themselves.

Why should my power not be equal to the content I bested rather then the rewards from doing a trivial grind over a long period of time?

It can be argued that Torghast is an extension of raiding. If you want to be optimal on a character for the raid, Torghast is a part of that.

In other words, why should character power only be tied to 1 activity exclusively? Having Torghast in the game, and conduits in the game incentivizes players to do other content, other than just raids if they want to be 100% optimal.

I don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't want to do all that other stuff outside raiding, thats okay, you just wont be 100% optimal and can still clear content just as well (although it might take your group more time).

[ohwell]

1. I never used the term "unfun."
2. I do not "hate" WoW. Wouldn't be here if I did.
2. "Unfun" is nevertheless a completely legitimate critique, and I find it telling that people that are still ardently dedicated to WoW think that you need to be able to quantify what "fun" is. Completely robotic and disconnected.

Where did I say you used the term unfun. I said you used vague ideas like unfun.

Your post reeks of hate. You can say you do, but you're harboring it. Problem is it probably wasn't your own idea, but rather something that pretty much got incepted into you by a streamer.

Unfun is never a legitimate critique. It relies on simply "it feels" when people can't back it up. Feelings and opinions can and SHOULD be backed up and unfun does not back up either one of those.

[Kalocy Jim]

You should not deny reality just because you dont like it. Bellulars video contained trend extrapolations from objective verifiable data. Sticking your head into the sand and throwing a tantrum just because you dont like the facts is not really mature.

With the absense of better data, approximations and analyzing trends is the best we can do. If you have a better idea, be my guest.

Ok, so lets say I agree with you (which I don't) and you are 100% right.

So what? What point are you and that idiot Bellular trying to prove by showing sub loss? That the game is shit? lol. Sub losses don't mean a game is shit. Its a natural cycle of ALL VIDEO GAMES.

Players get bored and play other games, when new content drops, they come back. It's expected at this point.

What, you think that if wow doesn't hit its all time high subscriber counts, the game is somehow bad? Get real, and reconnected with reality.

[draugril]

Am I missing something? Whats not to be optimistic about in light of the recent announced changes? It seriously feels like they are headed in the right direction, even though I don't fully agree with some of the "giving into player demands" changes being made.

As I said in my first post:

I like the tone that these most recent changes set, but it’s impossible for them to “turn things around” at this point in the cycle.

I am simply disillusioned with the current development cycle. The game is for Mythic raiders and Keystone pushers. All other content is designed to funnel you into that content. And if you enjoy that content? Great! But it does seem like the development team and many of the players themselves have forgotten that there is potential for breadth and novelty.

Legion is remembered as great because of the novel experiences it offered, Mythic+ being a key element of that. Rehashing that same formula without any true ambition twice over is simply burning people out. Even if BfA and SL were superior products from a technical standpoint (and I would argue that both are) they're going to be received negatively if they're following the paint-by-numbers template offered by Legion.

So yes, like I said, I am optimistic for the future of the game... just not for Shadowlands. And I definitely won't be buying the next expansion at release (fooled me with BfA, shame on Blizzard; fooled me with SL, shame on me).

[Empower]

Fair points.

Let me ask. What to you are the roadblocks you see that deter you from having fun with your alts that wasn't addressed with the potential 9.1.5 changes. Because from what I can tell:

-Freely Swappable Covenants - you can now FOTM any character in any covenant.
-Renown Catchup System - easily gain renown on any alt by buying a token for 500g that instantly gives you level 40 Renown. Renown comes from basically any source now to catch you up to the highest levels on any alt quickly.
-Conduit Energy Removed - easily swap conduits for any situation now.

I mean, I feel it was already easy to get an alt to max renown and be at 90-95% of the power that my main is at, but with these changes it makes it even faster and easier.

Am I missing something? Whats not to be optimistic about in light of the recent announced changes? It seriously feels like they are headed in the right direction, even though I don't fully agree with some of the "giving into player demands" changes being made.

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It can be argued that Torghast is an extension of raiding. If you want to be optimal on a character for the raid, Torghast is a part of that.

In other words, why should character power only be tied to 1 activity exclusively? Having Torghast in the game, and conduits in the game incentivizes players to do other content, other than just raids if they want to be 100% optimal.

I don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't want to do all that other stuff outside raiding, thats okay, you just wont be 100% optimal and can still clear content just as well (although it might take your group more time).

How is choreghast an extension of raiding...? Again why does trival content you can afk through have rewards valued by the hardest difficulty?

It doesn't make sense design wise unless you are intentionally designing the game to waste people's time rather then engage them.

[Milfshaked]

Am I missing something? Whats not to be optimistic about in light of the recent announced changes? It seriously feels like they are headed in the right direction, even though I don't fully agree with some of the "giving into player demands" changes being made.

The reason why there is no reason to be optimistic is that we have been done this road before. We are tired of this bullshit. It is too obvious. It is the blizzard cycle.

1. Release stupid broken system on PTR.
2. Players complain on PTR.
3. Ignore feedback, change nothing, release at it is.
4. Adapt to player feedback later in the expansion when people start quitting so you can attempt to grab some people back.
5. Repeat next expansion

There is no reason to be optmistic about anything until blizzard shows that they have actually learned something. Good changes that should have been in at 9.0 is meaningless if they cant show they learned something. Everything they have said about 9.1.5 shows that they have learned nothing and will just repeat the same shit next expansion. The only reason they pushed these changes to 9.1.5 instead of later in the expansion is because of the horrible state of the game and their desperation to atleast keep some players.

[Relapses]

You should not deny reality just because you dont like it. Bellulars video contained trend extrapolations from objective verifiable data. Sticking your head into the sand and throwing a tantrum just because you dont like the facts is not really mature.

With the absense of better data, approximations and analyzing trends is the best we can do. If you have a better idea, be my guest.

"Objective verifiable data" from third party websites that aren't even close to knowing the full truth. You know why? Because "knowing the whole truth" is completely fucking pointless anyway. If we knew the exact number of WoW subscribers there were we still wouldn't know what the fuck it means because Blizzard has never released their new customer generation or attrition numbers. They're just fucking numbers. Pointless numbers used to substantiate shitty opinions about the "game dying" for whatever dumb fucking reason they think matches the numbers. It happened when we knew sub numbers and that Bellular video is just an extrapolation of all the same shitty talking points people used to criticize the game before with the added benefit of having invented numbers on top of it.

You're free to believe his bullshit if you want. That's fine. It's not like saying WoW is dying is a particularly new or exciting take these days. But please do the rest of the world a favor and quit linking that dumb fucking video and pretending it's evidence of literally anything other than one balding English dude's pathetic attempt to use the YouTube algorithm for his own monetary gain.

[Milfshaked]

Ok, so lets say I agree with you (which I don't) and you are 100% right.

So what? What point are you and that idiot Bellular trying to prove by showing sub loss? That the game is shit? lol. Sub losses don't mean a game is shit. Its a natural cycle of ALL VIDEO GAMES.

Players get bored and play other games, when new content drops, they come back. It's expected at this point.

What, you think that if wow doesn't hit its all time high subscriber counts, the game is somehow bad? Get real, and reconnected with reality.

Thats a lot of words you put into my mouth lmao. I said absolutely nothing except pointing out that facts are facts. You do what you want with that information.

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"Objective verifiable data" from third party websites that aren't even close to knowing the full truth. You know why? Because "knowing the whole truth" is completely fucking pointless anyway. If we knew the exact number of WoW subscribers there were we still wouldn't know what the fuck it means because Blizzard has never released their new customer generation or attrition numbers. They're just fucking numbers. Pointless numbers used to substantiate shitty opinions about the "game dying" for whatever dumb fucking reason you think matches the numbers. It happened when we knew sub numbers and that Bellular video is just an extrapolation of all the same shitty talking points people used to criticize the game before with the added benefit of having invented numbers on top of it.

You're free to believe his bullshit if you want. That's fine. It's not like saying WoW is dying is a particularly new or exciting take these days. But please do the rest of the world a favor and quit linking that dumb fucking video and pretending it's evidence of literally anything other than one balding English dude's pathetic attempt to use the YouTube algorithm for his own monetary gain.

I am sorry if data upsets you.

[draugril]

Where did I say you used the term unfun. I said you used vague ideas like unfun.

Your post reeks of hate. You can say you do, but you're harboring it. Problem is it probably wasn't your own idea, but rather something that pretty much got incepted into you by a streamer.

Unfun is never a legitimate critique. It relies on simply "it feels" when people can't back it up. Feelings and opinions can and SHOULD be backed up and unfun does not back up either one of those.

1. That would be putting words in my mouth, then. That's a bad faith argument.
2. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to express here, but it seems like you're projecting. I don't watch people play video games.
3. "Unfun" is a completely legitimate critique. Video games exist to provide entertainment. Being entertaining is a qualitative measure, not a quantitative measure. Trying to measure "fun" by metrics that do not exist got us into this mess in the first place.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"Objective verifiable data" from third party websites that aren't even close to knowing the full truth.

Also important to note any extrapolations up to the last quarter that points to a sub loss in just objectively wrong as the investor reports say numbers have gone up.

[Relapses]

Thats a lot of words you put into my mouth lmao. I said absolutely nothing except pointing out that facts are facts. You do what you want with that information.

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I am sorry if data upsets you.

Incorrect, incomplete and totally unverifiable data used to support shitty opinions about the "game dying" is what upsets me. I don't care if you feel like the game's dying but don't flaunt that shitty fucking video around like it's irrefutable proof of anything.

[Milfshaked]

Incorrect, incomplete and totally unverifiable data used to support shitty opinions about the "game dying" is what upsets me. I don't care if you feel like the game's dying but don't flaunt that shitty fucking video around like it's irrefutable proof of anything.

I never said the game is dying. Dying is such a subjective term. The game will never completely die until blizzard shuts down the servers, which will realistically not happen for decades no matter how poor the game might perform.

The data is verifiable and as complete as we can get. If you have a better alternative, please provide it. You seem to just hate on the best available data we have because you dont like what it is telling you.

[TidalConflux]

The data is verifiable and as complete as we can get. If you have a better alternative, please provide it. You seem to just hate on the best available data we have because you dont like what it is telling you.

Just because its "as complete as you can get" still does not mean its good data either. People say the same literal thing about Lucky Bancho in FF14 too -- even if its the best available data, it doesnt mean anything because it has very noticeable blind spots in its data collection.

Much like in Bellular's data collection, there is large blind points which you could argue that makes the data skewed.

[Milfshaked]

Also important to note any extrapolations up to the last quarter that points to a sub loss in just objectively wrong as the investor reports say numbers have gone up.

Which quarter are you talking about? Most people are talking about Q3 numbers and blizzard have (obviously) not released Q3 investor reports yet. Neither the Q2 or Q1 financial reports seems to support what you are claiming either.

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Just because its "as complete as you can get" still does not mean its good data either. People say the same literal thing about Lucky Bancho in FF14 too -- even if its the best available data, it doesnt mean anything because it has very noticeable blind spots in its data collection.

Much like in Bellular's data collection, there is large blind points which you could argue that makes the data skewed.

I dont know much about FF14, but whatever happened there, doesnt mean this data is bad. The foundation is solid and trends dont really lie. We extrapolate trends this way in real life all the time.

[Relapses]

I never said the game is dying. Dying is such a subjective term. The game will never completely die until blizzard shuts down the servers, which will realistically not happen for decades no matter how poor the game might perform.

The data is verifiable and as complete as we can get. If you have a better alternative, please provide it. You seem to just hate on the best available data we have because you dont like what it is telling you.

Lmfao -- are we really going to pretend like a "data driven" analysis to support the game dying wasn't the entire fucking point of that dogshit video?

Moreover, my gripe with the video as I've said numerous times in this thread isn't that the data exists or that the game has lost players. It's that the picture that it paints only supports an extremely negative pointlessly cynical outlook which fails to account for a lot of extenuating factors the data he's referencing will never be able to address. We don't know how Blizzard views WoW's business model internally and assuming that "millions of subscribers lost" is indicative of some random fucking thesis about the "direction of the game" is disingenuous at a level that's hard to put into words. The issue isn't the data, it's the way the data was delivered and the way this community is using that data to support all sorts of terrible shit takes that frankly make it that much harder for the developers to make a game that's enjoyed by its consumers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which quarter are you talking about? Most people are talking about Q3 numbers and blizzard have (obviously) not released Q3 investor reports yet. Neither the Q2 or Q1 financial reports seems to support what you are claiming either.

I really don’t see what part of “last quarter” was all that confusing but to spell it out it would be Q2 and to quote the investor report it self.

• World of Warcraft net bookings again grew a double-digit percentage Y/Y, driven by the launch of Burning Crusade Classic. Subscriber numbers and hours played were higher following the release.

What part of that doesn’t support subs rising?

[TidalConflux]

I dont know much about FF14, but whatever happened there, doesnt mean this data is bad. The foundation is solid and trends dont really lie. We extrapolate trends this way in real life all the time.

Basing statements off incomplete data with very noticeable blind spots is bad -- regardless of what is the availability of said data. Bellular's problem was he presented this as a true, unfallable number rather than a rough estimation.

[OokOok]

For all the sheep and kids, just remember. If you wait 2 months it will be on sale, you get to save money and let Blizzard wake up at the same time and all you need to do is do what you've already been doing for the last year... crying on twitter....watching twitch....playing ffxiv...

Let Blizzard know through your wallet that you're not dumb enough to pre order the garbage they keep putting out, let blizzard know that you will no longer support paying 50$ to alpha test their games for a year into the expansion you paid for. D2:res could of been so much more, but they half assed it and slapped on a $ sign. Don't be a sheep

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Whenever I see these 2021 accounts post this shit I just figure it's a blizzard RP employee doing damage control and trying to play their flute to get the rats to follow them back home.