M+ needs back Titanforging

[Eazy]

Goofd then you have no argument against Titanforging.

I already wrote a few of them, wtf

It isn't going to hurt you one iota for an LFR player to have one piece of Mythic gear.

As I said - it would, because it would force other players to farm other content for a minimal DPS upgrade, while right now you get your "bises" or at least just do one raid.

Not what you are doing at all. YOu are demanding to be special and exclusive. That is eilitism.

No. That's just justice.
The thing you're proposing is just snowflaking. "I am special snowflake I deserve mythic ilvl items even though I only do LFR".
Just because people are paying for gym it doesn't mean they deserve to have a perfect body wihtout an effort.

Again, a LFR player will be lucky if they get even one Mythic level through titanforging. You will have a full set easily. You are already getting more and better for your effort. You just want to lord your superoiroty over everyone.

No. Stop spreading lies and nonsense. I am farming shoulders since 9.1 and I still haven't got them. For sure some LFR players would have them already with titanforging/wf. Don't be ridiculous.

Not if you don't have titanforging in HC/Mythic. everything else is a palyer self control problem, not a game problem.

If a game gives a player opportunity - the players would actually take them. LFG shown that with the ilvl requirements, that's a fact.

[QUOTE=rrayy;53405517]Goofd then you have no argument against Titanforging.

It isn't going to hurt you one iota for an LFR player to have one piece of Mythic gear.

Not what you are doing at all. YOu are demanding to be special and exclusive. That is eilitism.

A mythic raider will have their frull set before almsot all LFR players have even one piece. Stop with this false narrative.

No. You're just simply wrong.
There were cases where LFR players had the items that mythic raiders wanted and didn't get.

who made you sole arbiter of who deserves what? Players deserve what ever loot drops to them. Period.

I made myself a sole arbiter for that, because I am using simle logic and basic knowledge.
If someone puts effort - he deserves more and better.

Again, you will have a full set while a LFR person will be lucky to have even one pice. YOu get rewasrd for your effort.And again who made you arbiter of what people deserve? This is all about you wanting to feel superior and special. Stop with this BS narrative.

I don't want to feel superior or special, don't be ridiculous. You must've been really narrow-minded and obtuse to not see the point.
The point is: effort = reward.

What if I am a normal raider? I don't think I deserve HC ilvl items as long as I don't put some effort to actually raid heroic.

I don't think I deserve a welfare free ilvl upgrades for doing LESS than others. I am not that stupid.

I'm not a spoiled child who thinks it deserves something simply for paying for a game. Until a person spends some time, learns something, they don't deserve it. That is fair. To think otherwise is to simply not knowing how to play and counting on free carry from other players.



Let me just ask you what would you like to have:
-stationary little grinding(like being able to upgrade an item from the VP up to the mythic ilvl), but with a smaller cap each week, so you would have guaranted 1 mythic ilvl item each month/few weeks,
OR
-titanforging/warforging

[kamuimac]

[QUOTE=Eazy;53405837]I already wrote a few of them, wtf



As I said - it would, because it would force other players to farm other content for a minimal DPS upgrade, while right now you get your "bises" or at least just do one raid.



No. That's just justice.
The thing you're proposing is just snowflaking. "I am special snowflake I deserve mythic ilvl items even though I only do LFR".
Just because people are paying for gym it doesn't mean they deserve to have a perfect body wihtout an effort.



No. Stop spreading lies and nonsense. I am farming shoulders since 9.1 and I still haven't got them. For sure some LFR players would have them already with titanforging/wf. Don't be ridiculous.



If a game gives a player opportunity - the players would actually take them. LFG shown that with the ilvl requirements, that's a fact.

Goofd then you have no argument against Titanforging.

It isn't going to hurt you one iota for an LFR player to have one piece of Mythic gear.

Not what you are doing at all. YOu are demanding to be special and exclusive. That is eilitism.



No. You're just simply wrong.
There were cases where LFR players had the items that mythic raiders wanted and didn't get.



I made myself a sole arbiter for that, because I am using simle logic and basic knowledge.
If someone puts effort - he deserves more and better.



I don't want to feel superior or special, don't be ridiculous. You must've been really narrow-minded and obtuse to not see the point.
The point is: effort = reward.

What if I am a normal raider? I don't think I deserve HC ilvl items as long as I don't put some effort to actually raid heroic.

I don't think I deserve a welfare free ilvl upgrades for doing LESS than others. I am not that stupid.

I'm not a spoiled child who thinks it deserves something simply for paying for a game. Until a person spends some time, learns something, they don't deserve it. That is fair. To think otherwise is to simply not knowing how to play and counting on free carry from other players.



Let me just ask you what would you like to have:
-stationary little grinding(like being able to upgrade an item from the VP up to the mythic ilvl), but with a smaller cap each week, so you would have guaranted 1 mythic ilvl item each month/few weeks,
OR
-titanforging/warforging

titanforging any time of day

why ? because when titanforging was in game people had fun and had reason to play it

now ? now they play other games instead wow

why ? because fun is gone . fun is gone because TF got removed .

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't be so sure saying that the correlation is pretty weak. I haven't seen a single bad player with 250ilvl. But I guess there's some kind of treshold for this exact moment where you can actually say "that player is good"(such as 250ilvl, but that's JUST my personal observation).

then you just not doing enough m+

there is abundance of 250 people who play like complete trash atm but because of mix of +15 and first 3 bosses on mythic they are 250 +

people between 246-248 ? pure lottery because of so many weeks of GV givign free 252 gear for anyone who got carried in +15.

people with 2200-2300 score - again plenty play like trash but got carried to got rating by just doing enough untimed dungeons or getting carried or purely bruteforcing dungeons and mechanics in meta comps - but then at 20/21 you simply cannot ignore mechancis anymore so they keep wiping groups and destroying keys .

if you really want good players then you need to have combo of 250 itlv + atleast 2500 score.

[Eazy]

titanforging any time of day

So, an RNG welfare casino instead of steady progress?

It feels like only bad players would like to see it. Because they want to get a bonus reward for the same effort. Creating a false ( and unhealthy) relationship between effort and reward. That's senseless.

why ? because when titanforging was in game people had fun and had reason to play it

now ? now they play other games instead wow

why ? because fun is gone . fun is gone because TF got removed .

lmao
It's totally the opposite.
Endless grinding causes faster burn-out, while players will playing other(easier) content for the small upgrades for them.

Don't say such a thing isn't happening. See covenants - they were like ~1-3% difference in DPS for some classes and still most of the people were choosing the ones which were the best, instead of focusing the ones they liked the most(thematically, t-mog, mounts, abilities etc).

then you just not doing enough m+

there is abundance of 250 people who play like complete trash atm but because of mix of +15 and first 3 bosses on mythic they are 250 +

people between 246-248 ? pure lottery because of so many weeks of GV givign free 252 gear for anyone who got carried in +15.

people with 2200-2300 score - again plenty play like trash but got carried to got rating by just doing enough untimed dungeons or getting carried or purely bruteforcing dungeons and mechanics in meta comps - but then at 20/21 you simply cannot ignore mechancis anymore so they keep wiping groups and destroying keys .

if you really want good players then you need to have combo of 250 itlv + atleast 2500 score.

I am doing at least 4 mythic dungeons weekly at +15 and higher. Never met a bad player at 250 ilvl. As I wrote above... It's just a personal observation, and I am not inviting people who have high ilvl without high score/progress. But... also never met a player at ~250ilvl who was bad and had low score/progress.

Your examples are also a personal observations.
While I was writing about the %. People with higher ilvl have higher probability of being better.

[Raelbo]

As I said - it would, because it would force other players to farm other content for a minimal DPS upgrade, while right now you get your "bises" or at least just do one raid.

This is a fallacy.

No one was ever *forced* to do any lower level content simply to chase the extremely unlikely chance of a an upgrade. Sure, a lot of players chose to do so, but the fact of the matter is that this sort of player is always going to do crazy stuff in their insane pursuit of trying to get the best gear possible. You can't blame a gearing system for that.

No. That's just justice.
The thing you're proposing is just snowflaking. "I am special snowflake I deserve mythic ilvl items even though I only do LFR".
Just because people are paying for gym it doesn't mean they deserve to have a perfect body wihtout an effort.

No one has ever suggested that LFR players deserve the same rewards as those doing higher difficulty levels. And to suggest as such is disingenuous.

Having a very small chance to win even a single Mythic quality item from LFR is not even close to the kind of rewards that any Mythic raider is going to be earning. The thing you're ignoring is that gearing in this game has to be looked at holistically. Your power is the result of all your gear combined, and while it was certainly plausible that players got 'undeservedly' lucky with some items, this was pretty meaningless without the rest of the gear to back it. And the only way to get well geared was through persistent effort in tackling hard content.

No. Stop spreading lies and nonsense. I am farming shoulders since 9.1 and I still haven't got them. For sure some LFR players would have them already with titanforging/wf. Don't be ridiculous.

The only one being ridiculous here is you. Making a mountain of a molehill. It's one gearslot out of 16 you're fixating on where the odds are literally of the order of 1 in a million that some random player has that item from LFR. Get a grip.

If a game gives a player opportunity - the players would actually take them. LFG shown that with the ilvl requirements, that's a fact.

So let them. If someone wants to be an idiot then that's their business.

No. You're just simply wrong.
There were cases where LFR players had the items that mythic raiders wanted and didn't get.

0.001% of LFR players having a single item that has eluded 2% of mythic raiders is not the problem you want to pretend it is. In fact it isn't a problem at all. Deal with it.

I made myself a sole arbiter for that, because I am using simle logic and basic knowledge.

Unfortunately your conclusions are the result of not applying the correct logic, and a lack of most of the knowledge you need.

If someone puts effort - he deserves more and better.

And this was always the case. If anything TF made this even more true because those who put in more effort (as in being diligent about clearing the raid every single week) were going to land up with better gear than other players tackling the same content but with less commitment.

What if I am a normal raider? I don't think I deserve HC ilvl items as long as I don't put some effort to actually raid heroic.

That's just because you're being too narrow minded. The problem with your reasoning here is that you're conflating individual items with overall itemlevel. TF was never about saying that normal raiders deserved the same gear as heroic raiders but rather that they deserved a shot at a few pieces of heroic gear. And, given the number of times you'd need to run normal to get a few pieces of heroic gear, compared to how quickly you'll get that gear by actually doing heroic, your argument about the relative levels of effort is laughable.

I don't think I deserve a welfare free ilvl upgrades for doing LESS than others. I am not that stupid.

No. The error in your thinking is that you are trying to equate getting small taste of the rewards from higher difficulty levels with getting the whole feast.

[Soikona]

Ok? Thanks for going out of your way to acknowledge you don't fit into that category.


And it still doesn't change anything I said.

Ah but it does. You are saying that the ones that wanted loot to be loot, like me, are crying for TFing, when I am not. So it does, since as I stated, we are not a hivemind

- - - Updated - - -

Because they don;t want ANYONE on LFR possibly getting it. It's called "special snowflake syndrome". They want to feel superior.

Or, and this is crazy right… people want to be rewarded for doing the higher content and not having to grind lower content on the possibilities that an item might become WF/TF. Shocker ain’t that, people don’t want to do content that is so easy for them, for a chance of an upgrade over something they find challenging and engaging. Shocker!!

While on the other side of the coin using your illogical argument “PeOpLe don’t things basically for free with no effort. It’s called “being lazy syndrome””.

[Eazy]

This is a fallacy.

No one was ever *forced* to do any lower level content simply to chase the extremely unlikely chance of a an upgrade. Sure, a lot of players chose to do so, but the fact of the matter is that this sort of player is always going to do crazy stuff in their insane pursuit of trying to get the best gear possible. You can't blame a gearing system for that.

Not really. Right now you can get your bis gear. With TF/WF it's almost impossible.
You're the one who's wrong here.

No one has ever suggested that LFR players deserve the same rewards as those doing higher difficulty levels. And to suggest as such is disingenuous.

Plenty of people here wants mythic ilvl item randomly dropping from the bosses.

MANY people were doing easier and lower content for the small chance of getting an upgrade for the exact content they were doing. That's a fact.

Having a very small chance to win even a single Mythic quality item from LFR is not even close to the kind of rewards that any Mythic raider is going to be earning. The thing you're ignoring is that gearing in this game has to be looked at holistically. Your power is the result of all your gear combined, and while it was certainly plausible that players got 'undeservedly' lucky with some items, this was pretty meaningless without the rest of the gear to back it. And the only way to get well geared was through persistent effort in tackling hard content.

But that's still unfair, people were getting mythic ilvl items by doing LFR and some players couldnt get them after a few weeks/months. That's what was unfair in that ridiculous system.
Of course the mythic player would still be better(they're more skilled, have better knowledge, know how to adapt and are usually more understanding), but that doesn't mean LFR player deserve to get an upgrade that could be useful for a mythic raider. If someone wants to get better items, then should try to put an effort.
Expecting a random higher reward for doing exactly the same thing is just purely stupid can cause more harm than good, giving a false carrot-on a stick with endless grind.

The only one being ridiculous here is you. Making a mountain of a molehill. It's one gearslot out of 16 you're fixating on where the odds are literally of the order of 1 in a million that some random player has that item from LFR. Get a grip.

First of all. It's not 1 in a billion.
Second - it'd cause more problems that I was writing about above.

So let them. If someone wants to be an idiot then that's their business.

That's not the point. People shouldn't have high ilvl if they aren't good enough. Otherwise it causes problems.

0.001% of LFR players having a single item that has eluded 2% of mythic raiders is not the problem you want to pretend it is. In fact it isn't a problem at all. Deal with it.

Mythic raiders would feel forced to do lower content and spend more time on the them(while carrying worse players) to have a small chance to get the upgrade.
That's problematic. Because it causes faster burn-out. It also gives worse players a false feeling of being good enough to do raid on the level they were carried.

Unfortunately your conclusions are the result of not applying the correct logic, and a lack of most of the knowledge you need.

Nice argument.

And this was always the case. If anything TF made this even more true because those who put in more effort (as in being diligent about clearing the raid every single week) were going to land up with better gear than other players tackling the same content but with less commitment.

Not true. I was in HC ilvl gear at the end of the patch while I was doing LFR/Normal, and I don't think that was fair. I clearly didn't deserve it compared to other people who were doing HC and were just in between HC/mythic ilvl.
And grinding =! effort. A person who cleans the street each day for 12h doesn't deserve the same reward as the person who is putting people on the orbit, even if he does that once in a life-time.

That's just because you're being too narrow minded. The problem with your reasoning here is that you're conflating individual items with overall itemlevel. TF was never about saying that normal raiders deserved the same gear as heroic raiders but rather that they deserved a shot at a few pieces of heroic gear. And, given the number of times you'd need to run normal to get a few pieces of heroic gear, compared to how quickly you'll get that gear by actually doing heroic, your argument about the relative levels of effort is laughable.

What's the point of getting an upgrade if you're not doing harder content? There's none. As I wrote above - it's just a fale carrot on a stick, to keep people playing, while they're still bad players. Right now if you're mythic raider - you get mythic ilvl items because you're doing mythic.
What's the point of LFR player getting mythic ilvl items? So they could get +10 DPS upgrade? So they could try to apply to harder contents(because of their higher ilvl) they have no idea about?

There are no other arguments for WF/TF than:
-I want free welfare items with higher ilvl even though I don't put any effort,
-I want a false carrot on a stick to makes me keep playing this game,

No. The error in your thinking is that you are trying to equate getting small taste of the rewards from higher difficulty levels with getting the whole feast.

It's a much bigger problem. You're too obtuse to actually see the bigger picture of the problem WF/TF was causing(I mean the things I was writing about before).
I am really happy they resigned from that retarded system.

[Soikona]

It has become quite clear that raiders are the problem with WoW. Raiders (in WoW) are degenerates.

I think the problem are those that want things but not willing to work for them, and want to rely on a gambling system to justify their poor choices. That’s with life outside of the game too!

[Eazy]

I think the problem are those that want things but not willing to work for them, and want to rely on a gambling system to justify their poor choices. That’s with life outside of the game too!

Exactly. People want free reward for doing nothing.

They feel entitled to get better items than others for doing the same thing(because that what WF/TF is about).

There's seriously no justification for it other than "but I want free mythic ilvl items even though I am too mentally limited to actually play better and socialize with other people".

[Ezyah]

Warforging was ok , titanforging was waaaaay too much

[Kaver]

current system failed completly as nearly all players left game to play something else

only ones supporting current system are those benefiting from it direckly - aka top 1 % .

game is in abysmal bad state - m+ are completly dead below +15 keys and nothign is even suggesting that devs want to improve it

9.1.5 will be best proof of it.

and no - this is not just bashing game

have you tried keys like 10-14 lately ? not only there are next to none of them outside of 19-22 but also people there fail complelty - its extremly bad and unfun gameplay

game is basicly dead below 15 keys .

The current loot system sucks, but that’s not specifically due to a lack of Titanforging. Again, FF14 is a great example that you can have an awesome loot system which is rewarding for everyone WITHOUT having Titanforging.

Simple things Blizzard could do to massively improve the loot system in M+:

- increase gear drop rate
- remove the valor cap
- remove the rating restrictions on gear upgrades
- make higher keys drop more valor

This way everyone would have a possibility to upgrade their gear without having to rely on extreme RNG. Higher keys would give more valor than low keys, so the upgrading for better players would be faster compared to more casual players. But everyone would be able to work towards good gear.

[ulululu]

It's so boring without any chance to get an upgrade ever outside the waiting vault.

I want to play the game to get upgrades, not sit and wait for my weekly welfare loot.

Legion/first half of Bfa were the greatest. Every end of dungeon chest contained a potential big upgrade. Every dungeon was run in anticipation of great loot. Fun times.

Blizzard always listens to the wrong people. Titanforging was the greatest. Loot and M+ are super boring in Shadowlands.

(x) doubt.


Earlier people cried over titanforging and how it sucked as a system, that the game would benefit if they threw it out completely.

Now people cry about never getting any valuable loot so titanforging could be the perfect solution and if they do spend the effort then bring in more loot in general so that people can complain about that - since they "maxed out" on loot pretty fast (whatever this might mean for every individual player) - that there are no rewards in the game anymore.

I read an assertion like:

titanforging all day

why ? because when titanforging was in game people had fun and had reason to play it

now ? now they play other games instead wow

why ? because fun is gone . fun is gone because TF got removed .

You can literally just substitute titanforging with ANYTHING that comes to your mind at least SOME player might have been enjoying, that doesn't particularly add any value or significance to the assertion.

"Höhö, back in the day people liked PvP Resilience and Power, it was very fun because people had reason to play

people now play other games as numbers show

why? because fun is gone, it is gone because PvP P&R got removed, obviously says science."


Don't forget the mandatory "FFXIV is better"

It's just relocating the core issue to a higher number.

[kamuimac]

So, an RNG welfare casino instead of steady progress?

i wonder what progress you mean those.

at 250 you have 0 progress. if you do solely m+ at 246+ you have 0 progress because you literaly canot upgrade above 246.

now if for example clearing all +18 would give you acces to upgrading all gear to 252 and clearing all +20 ould let you upgrade your gear to 259 - and similairly clearing X bosses on hc let you upgrade with vp to 252 and clearing X bosses on mythci lets you upgrade to 259 ? sure then this system would give people progression

but atm that is non existent.

im 251 and im capped till next tier because im not killing mythic sylvanas to get her bow so i have literaly no reason whatsoever to do a single m+ once i got my portals

this means that i have no reason to play my main for next 5-6 months and i had no reason for couple of weeks now besides logging in to raid

and this is a good system ?

i know raid loggers love it - i personaly hate it with all my passion.

- - - Updated - - -

It's just relocating the core issue to a higher number.

the core issue is a lot of people have 0 reason to log in to game

so what they do ? they log in to different game even though they would prefer to have literaly any reason to log in to wow

thats the core issue.

[Eazy]

i wonder what progress you mean those.

I mean that there could be stripped out restrictions for M+ upgrades and the valor cap lowered(so LFR/low M+ people wouldn't have 1 mythic item every second week). But more like 1 item per month.

at 250 you have 0 progress. if you do solely m+ at 246+ you have 0 progress because you literaly canot upgrade above 246.

The challenges in this games are the main progress. People need better gear to do harder contents. LFR player don't need it.
Ilvl isn't something which should be progressable, because that's a pure fallacy. 239ilvl heroic item with Shards are stronger for raiding than 252ilvl items with bis stats.

now if for example clearing all +18 would give you acces to upgrading all gear to 252 and clearing all +20 ould let you upgrade your gear to 259 - and similairly clearing X bosses on hc let you upgrade with vp to 252 and clearing X bosses on mythci lets you upgrade to 259 ? sure then this system would give people progression

Not really +15 and higher is the highest progress for the M+ players that need the gear.
All the levels above are just challenges that can give you higher score and portals.

im 251 and im capped till next tier because im not killing mythic sylvanas to get her bow so i have literaly no reason whatsoever to do a single m+ once i got my portals

As long as you did every challenge you wanted - you're free to go and play something else.
If you think that WF/TF would be a good reason to stay, while you've reached your goals already, then you're the problem. You just need a carrot on a stick to play the game, the false feeling of progress while in fact - you don't need that gear.
What for? It would give you an advantage for... literally nothing.

this means that i have no reason to play my main for next 5-6 months and i had no reason for couple of weeks now besides logging in to raid

You can always try to score higher and have better logs.
That's the main problem with WF/TF - it's not making people better. Good players with BIS items will always beat the bad players with BIS items.
If you need a RANDOM CASINO WELFARE to keep your subscription on, then I guess you should try other game or just do something else.

[Malania]

Just an observation of reading this thread's back and forth:

WoW is not a substitute for a mediocre life. Being given the best gear for zero effort will not improve your self esteem in or out of the game. Rewards in WoW are provided on the effort required to earn them. You are not entitled to them based on an RNG roll in the same way you're not entitled to win the lottery.

TF and WF were a problem for the game and were dropped for reasons which also included player feedback. They aren't coming back.

[Raelbo]

Not really. Right now you can get your bis gear. With TF/WF it's almost impossible.
You're the one who's wrong here.

What you fail to understand is that by removing the prospect of being able to realistically achieve bis, the game gave us the freedom to choose how much time and effort we wanted to commit to gearing according to our needs dictated by the content we wanted to tackle and what we wanted to achieve in-game.

This was fantastic for most players, especially anyone with the ability to think and act of their own accord without the need of a bis list to set their goals and objectives for them. Sadly, for the rest of us, we have regressed to the bis system based on what was never more than a vocal minority who may or may not have represented the majority of players (and given the tiny percentage of players who ever actually achieved bis in the game, it's more than likely the latter).

Plenty of people here wants mythic ilvl item randomly dropping from the bosses.

Yeah, but not anywhere close to the extent to which you'd have us believe. As has been reiterated here many times already, there is a world of difference between liking the possibility of getting a nice item, and the expectation of getting full mythic gear. For the vast majority of players, what TF/WF actually translated into was a gradual increase of average ilevel over time. At no point was the gear advantage of the mythic raider ever under threat from lesser difficulty players (just as heroic raiders weren't challenged by normal raiders, who weren't challenged by LFR players). Nor was there ever an expectation, nor desire for this.

MANY people were doing easier and lower content for the small chance of getting an upgrade for the exact content they were doing. That's a fact.

And that was their CHOICE. The important point here is that no one was ever forced into this position. If some mythic raider didn't enjoy doing LFR for a 0.001% of a small gear upgrade, then the answer was simple, they shouldn't bother with LFR, and if they chose to do it anyway, they have only themselves and their poor grasp of statistics

But that's still unfair, people were getting mythic ilvl items by doing LFR and some players couldnt get them after a few weeks/months. That's what was unfair in that ridiculous system.

Oh get over yourself and your ridiculous sense of entitlement please. You're fixating on minute details while ignoring the bigger picture which is that the average mythic raider had a 45 ilevel advantage over LFR players. Now you're getting upset because in the case of a rare 0.001% of LFR players that advantage is reduced to 44 ilevels?

Of course the mythic player would still be better(they're more skilled, have better knowledge, know how to adapt and are usually more understanding),

No, I was saying that Mythic raiders had significantly better gear.

but that doesn't mean LFR player deserve to get an upgrade that could be useful for a mythic raider.

I am not sure where you get this idea that an item obtained by an LFR player somehow deprived a Mythic raider. The two things are completely independent.

If someone wants to get better items, then should try to put an effort.

First off, maybe stop trying to be a self-proclaimed authority on who should get what. Based on what you've expressed here you would be terrible at it.

Secondly, I think your argument that the rewards are not commensurate with effort is wrong. Lesser difficulty levels may be less effort than higher difficulty levels, but that doesn't mean the effort is zero. Hell, I'd bet that many here would even agree that LFR can be more effort than heroic if you're in a decent guild, simply because of the level of stupid you have to deal with in LFR. Regardless, the probabilities of getting meaningful TF drops from lower difficulties means that the number of times you would need to run that content to have a comparable chance of seeing the item drop, more than justifies the reward if you're talking about effort. Just to put it in perspective, and if my memory serves, you'd need about 100 LFR runs to match the expected gear you'd get from a single normal run. Likewise for normal vs heroic and heroic vs mythic.

Expecting a random higher reward for doing exactly the same thing is just purely stupid can cause more harm than good, giving a false carrot-on a stick with endless grind.

Honestly, the intent was never to create an endless grind. It was an option, and the probabilities involved were never that difficult to figure out. If stupid people chose to grind endlessly simply because the chance existed, they deserved all the suffering they got. That is no reason to punish every other player out there.

First of all. It's not 1 in a billion.

First of all, learn to read. I said 1 in a million. That is based on a 20% chance of having a 5 ilevel proc, and a repeated 20% chance for each extra proc. It's close enough to 1 in a million when you look at going from LFR to mythic (9 procs).

Second - it'd cause more problems that I was writing about above.

As I wrote above, these problems are originated by stupid players who don't understand statistics, lack the self control to regulate how much time they spend in the game and what content they choose to participate in, and lack the ability to recognise and correct their own faults, insisting instead on finding something else to blame.

That's not the point. People shouldn't have high ilvl if they aren't good enough. Otherwise it causes problems.

People didn't get high ilvl (ie average ilvl) if they weren't good enough. Period. Those problems you're imagining didn't exist.

Mythic raiders would feel forced to do lower content and spend more time on the them(while carrying worse players) to have a small chance to get the upgrade.

That is bullshit. Utter bullshit.

While it is true that the competitive mythic guilds would run heroic, this did not extend to normal and LFR. The simple fact here is that for a mythic guild to be competitive, they need to compete in time and effort with other mythic guilds. This has nothing to do with game or system design, but it is an inherent to the nature of it being a competitive activity. And the best mythic guilds will figure out the best way to spend that time in order to see a gear improvement. And it goes without saying that there are much worse things that a mythic guild could do with their extra time than farming the current on heroic each week.

That's problematic. Because it causes faster burn-out.

That's a fallacy. Burnout isn't caused by the amount of available content. It's caused by player competitiveness. Blizzard tried for years to regulate the amount of content that a character would be allowed to do in a set amount of time before they realised it was pointless. Because a player will always be able to find a way to spend more time trying to gain a little bit more of an advantage. This is why it is better to create a game without an upper limit of how much time/effort you can put in, and control the system by means of diminishing returns, allowing the players to choose for themselves where to draw the line.

It also gives worse players a false feeling of being good enough to do raid on the level they were carried.

Yeah, you need to stop worrying about this. It's not a healthy attitude.

Nice argument.

lol! You seem to miss the irony in that I was basically taking my cue from what you wrote. You've just rolled your eyes at yourself. Hahaha

Not true. I was in HC ilvl gear at the end of the patch while I was doing LFR/Normal, and I don't think that was fair. I clearly didn't deserve it compared to other people who were doing HC and were just in between HC/mythic ilvl.

Cool story bro, but honestly, I don't really buy it. You're either exaggerating about the amount of gear you obtained, or you're concealing how you really got your gear. Because if you were doing the same amount of normal raiding as they were doing heroic, the number of TF you would have got would be comparable to the amount of TF they would have got and the gear difference would have remained pretty much static. And don't even pretend you got a bunch of heroic gear from LFR because, statistically it would only be contributing 1% to your gear. You'd have been lucky to get even 1 drop from there that actually counted.

And grinding =! effort.

lol. Of course it's effort.

A person who cleans the street each day for 12h doesn't deserve the same reward as the person who is putting people on the orbit, even if he does that once in a life-time.

This is such a cringeworthy analogy that speaks to your character as a human being that I don't even know where to begin. But I'll entertain it just to show you the flaw in your thinking:

Let's assume that because capitalism, the rocket scientist deserves 100 times the amount of pay as the street sweeper. Both take their pay and spend it on lottery tickets. Either could win the jackpot (mythic item), but it goes without saying that the rocket scientist will win a lot more than the street sweeper.

What's the point of getting an upgrade if you're not doing harder content? There's none.

Growing more powerful is a major characteristic of the rpg genre. You get more powerful, defeat stronger challenges, gain more power. It's the entire point of the game.

As I wrote above - it's just a fale carrot on a stick, to keep people playing, while they're still bad players.

You've got some serious issues with other players being bad. Maybe focus on yourself and stop concerning yourself about the rest of us. Thanks.

Right now if you're mythic raider - you get mythic ilvl items because you're doing mythic.What's the point of LFR player getting mythic ilvl items?

You keep trying to make this argument as though this is somehow the norm. Truth is it was incredibly rare. And even when it did happen, it's not like it made a material difference to anything.

The point was always the same though. TF meant that everyone, including LFR players, would get a bit more gear out content they were doing over time.

So they could try to apply to harder contents(because of their higher ilvl) they have no idea about?

TF never made a difference to this. I don't see why you think it's relevant.

There are no other arguments for WF/TF than:
-I want free welfare items with higher ilvl even though I don't put any effort,
-I want a false carrot on a stick to makes me keep playing this game,

Then you haven't been paying attention (which is hardly surprising)
- I don't want to feel like content I enjoy is pointless once I have the gear from it
- If my guild is struggling on a boss, we can keep on farming the instance diligently (while also working on the boss) with the knowledge that we'll get a few gear upgrades that can help us
- I don't need to feel like I must avoid content simply because there is no possibility of a gear upgrade

It's a much bigger problem. You're too obtuse to actually see the bigger picture of the problem WF/TF was causing(I mean the things I was writing about before).

Says the person whose entire argument is predicated around not seeing the bigger at all (eg focussing on the one in 50 000 players who had a single mythic item from LFR and ignoring the 49999 who didn't)

I am really happy they resigned from that retarded system.

I don't really care either way. It just saddens me that, once again, stupidity won the day. That is never a good thing. And if you're being honest, are you actually any happier now? I mean I know you're happy that this system is gone, but if your post is anything to go by you're just as miserable as you were before TF appeared, when it was here, and as you'll be 10 years from now.

[Deneios]

WF/TF can burn in hell and who ever came up with it. Some items should be token gear and some only drops. Current gearing system is random enough and nobody wants even more random rolls except people with gambling problems

[rrayy]

Ah but it does. You are saying that the ones that wanted loot to be loot, like me, are crying for TFing, when I am not. So it does, since as I stated, we are not a hivemind

- - - Updated - - -



Or, and this is crazy right… people want to be rewarded for doing the higher content and not having to grind lower content on the possibilities that an item might become WF/TF. Shocker ain’t that, people don’t want to do content that is so easy for them, for a chance of an upgrade over something they find challenging and engaging. Shocker!!

While on the other side of the coin using your illogical argument “PeOpLe don’t things basically for free with no effort. It’s called “being lazy syndrome””.

YO don't have to grind the lower difficulties. That is a player issue from self controlk, not a game one. Players are in no way required to grind lower difficulties. Payers need to stop blaming the game for their own lack of self control.

And nobody is saying they want things for free for no effort/. LFR still takes effort.maybe getting one gear for running LFR for weeks on end for a cycle is not that big of a deal at all. Once again, mythic raiders want to feel superior and to be able to lord it over everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

Just an observation of reading this thread's back and forth:

WoW is not a substitute for a mediocre life. Being given the best gear for zero effort will not improve your self esteem in or out of the game. Rewards in WoW are provided on the effort required to earn them. You are not entitled to them based on an RNG roll in the same way you're not entitled to win the lottery.

TF and WF were a problem for the game and were dropped for reasons which also included player feedback. They aren't coming back.

This is a ridiculous post. It's not a out imprtoving self esteem,. Also, stop with teh "zero effort" BS. There is effort in LFR and you trying to dictate how the game should reward people is your own entitlement talking. You are not the sole arbiter of what people are entitled to.

[Ange]

WF/TF can burn in hell and who ever came up with it. Some items should be token gear and some only drops. Current gearing system is random enough and nobody wants even more random rolls except people with gambling problems

As a casual but regular player at this point I am sitting on 251+ ivl gear and since vault loot is the only thing that matter in the long run, I have zero incentive to do anything but the bare minimum (4/10 - 10/10 keys).

My issue is, thats not much playtime per week, 1-2 evenings and its done for the week outside of raiding.

If you like it this way great. But you either raid mythic, do 2400+ pvp or you dont even play the game regularly, I dont see how you would like this game version right now otherwise.

Legions/BfAs main gearing was still done via weekly chest, but at least you had a chance to get something in between - and I enjoyed the few random drops with maxed TF levels.

Its not like there was people running around with fully maxed ilvl just from random TF loot, that was never the case nor an issue. Streamers made such a stupid argument about it, but in the end for a regular player it was just 1-2 items end of each gearing season that was from a random TF drop (if at all).
All shadowlands and the streamer negative bullshit did, was to take away the rare chance to see something else drop that you could use for gearing outside of the weekly min-max.

[Malania]

You are not the sole arbiter of what people are entitled to.

No, Blizzard is and they removed it as a failed system. You can look back at all the posts about it on the forums at the frustration the system caused.

Effort involved in LFR does not equal difficulty. You're rewards are based on difficulty of the content, not the fact you turned up for 10m.

[Raelbo]

No, Blizzard is and they removed it as a failed system.

Yes they removed it. That does not mean it was a failed system.

You can look back at all the posts about it on the forums at the frustration the system caused.

WoW is a game played by millions. The anti-TF campaign was instigated and pushed by hundreds. Further to that I would add, it's probably the same crowd who complain about every system.

Critically, however, as someone who followed the debate on the forums, I cannot say I have any respect for the arguments made against TF. As with most anti-whatever complaints, the main strategy was more about making a big noise than having any real substance. I would surmise that TF simply became the scapegoat for peoples' frustrations, and in the end the smartest thing for Blizzard to do was to sacrifice it on the altar of public opinion. And so the cycle continues as it always has in this game.

Effort involved in LFR does not equal difficulty. You're rewards are based on difficulty of the content, not the fact you turned up for 10m.

I am not about to disagree that defeating difficult content should offer rewards commensurate with that difficulty and the effort involved. And I am not going to try and pretend that LFR involves anywhere near the difficulty or effort of mythic raiding. But what I can say with confidence is that LFR does still require some level of effort. And that level of effort is a lot more than 1 millionth of what is required for mythic. And if you follow that line of reasoning then I simply cannot see how you can deem a 1 millionth of the probability of getting a mythic level item to be out of line. Unless you were trying to argue that those items should have been dropping more frequently in LFR....