Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-09-24 at 03:23 AM.
Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
What part of this statement is non-factual?
"People who get the vaccine can still get sick, spread the disease, be hospitalized, and die from Covid-19."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1341
Would fraud law apply?
I mean, if you don't, and you waffle between the two as you've been doing, that just means you're a hypocrite and don't actually believe either, because you're not here participating in good faith.
That's certainly an option.
No, this is a dodge, based on you misrepresenting the positions you were presented with. You're lying, here. Again, the point was that if you agree that speech can be restricted, you cannot rationally oppose further restrictions on speech on that basis. You've already conceded that restricting speech can be good. You yourself have admitted it is not grounds for opposition.I have agreed that the government restricts speech, and has done so on many occasions. Of course i can complain about further laws. That's like saying you think the government has a right to place regulations on immigration, so therefore you have no business complaining if they restrict all immigration, or decide to ban Muslims from entering the country.
So, sufficiently popped.
When you then oppose it on that basis, you're being a hypocrite.
You can't have it both ways. You pick one, or the other, or you're a hypocrite. Try not excluding "on that basis" the next time you think you've figured out a way to avoid the point.
It is a deflection. But yes; the government can obviously control immigration; barring a known terrorist from immigrating is, obviously, sensible. It's always going to be about why immigration of certain people is being restricted, not that immigration is restricted.So, you do think the government is allowed to control immigration, do you not?
Careful. Besides, I know you'll call this a deflection, when it's really just an easy way to refute your assertion.
Same with speech, which is why you're not refuting anything here. Just apparently finding out that I'm not going to be a hypocrite about the principles I've set forth.
So, all those verifiably-true claims are not misinformation in your eyes, and you seem to have no recourse. Since I pointed out a great deal of the shit being posted is just like this, or simply statements of opinion based on "concern," or "having questions," then you seem to have very little recourse.
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It's not irrelevant, because that's wat a great deal of misinformation is.
On its own? No, it's a statement of fact. In fact, it's part of the spiel on potential side effects you have to agree to in getting the vaccine.
If you then use that as an argument to try and get people to avoid the vaccine, by ignoring that the chance is vastly less than the risk of death from COVID-19 itself, so rare it's not worth consideration, that is when it becomes misinformation.
Once it's in a context that's used to misinform.
You keep ignoring what misinformation is, lying about that, to manufacture a false point here.
Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
No, I don't have to choose, because your premise is false, and I simply don't ascribe to what you typed. I simply disagree wit the narrative you tried to present.
It's not a dodge, it shows how bad the argument is for option "A."
I have laid out exactly WHY I do not support what others are trying to push. I did pick one, I picked to drive right through your shitty analogy, and show how piss poor it is. I've explained it so many times, it's absurd.
His argument is essentially that, if I defraud a company I work for by embezzling funds, it's totally okay and not a crime as long as I correctly filled out my time sheets. Those "truths" mean nothing else I did was fraud, magically, somehow.
Like he's doing here, citing facts and ignoring the misinformation context into which they're put, which is what makes them misinformation. You can use those facts legitimately. As many company employees use their time sheets legitimately.
He's being willfully dishonest in the framing.
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Your arguments always boiled down to you not wanting restrictions on speech.
Which is both not an argument (it's just a subjective preference), but also contradicts other statements you've made. Where you support the status quo, which includes exactly that.
Yes, that's the point. the issue is that the burden of harm, intent, and everything else is entirely on those who want to punish speech. And, since a person is basing it on verifiable facts (even if they are omitting plenty), then they have deniability.
This is especially difficult since it would be nearly impossible to place any single thing as a harmful act. Not only that, you'd have to determine who exactly was harmed, how they were harmed, and exactly how much they read from any single source.
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I literally gave examples that I have seen recently.
Done.
It's also hilarious that in all the proposals listed in this thread, few of them actually have to do with banning users or stopping anyone from saying anything, rather increasing social media company accountability and transparency, as well as giving them adequate time to fact check things that are going viral, but he's banging on about how it's "stopping people from saying true things".
Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
Except, most of the random Facebookers aren't actually defrauding, because they are not gaining money or property from those they are lying to. That creates issues of standing.
My argument boils down to not wanting to restrict speech that is technically factual, or speech that isn't causing verifiable harm. Hell, since there's mobs of millions of Americans spamming this bullshit, trying to find who "shot the gun" would be nearly impossible.
Those are trivial to demonstrate.
To demonstrate harm, you just need to demonstrate the potential for people to believe the false statements. Anyone repeating those statements proves this conclusively.
To demonstrate intent, you literally just have to prove they posted the statements. That's intent. Like with a stabbing; "yes, I meant to put that knife into that person" is intent. You seem to want to mean motive, but A> motive isn't necessary for conviction, it just helps, and B> motive is pretty trivial to demonstrate, anyway, since it doesn't have to be proven in the first place, since again, not necessary for conviction.
These are not significant hurdles to surmount. They do not need to demonstrate malice, for instance. "Malice" is not a necessary component of most speech crimes. It can be added for flavor, but it's not particularly necessary.
I don't believe I said most. I said a great deal.
That's why I listed statements. I'm not going to list those stupid Ivermectin studies or sites, because i consider it to be misinformation, and even using it as an example could get me banned. Would you like me to PM them to you?
Cool, then you aren't actually arguing anything that people here don't already agree with. Piss off.
Besides managing to figure out that it's about 12 accounts on Facebook and Twitter shooting the gun in terms of the majority of anti-vax information, you mean?Hell, since there's mobs of millions of Americans spamming this bullshit, trying to find who "shot the gun" would be nearly impossible.
Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
You understand what analogies are and how they work, right?
Because this counter doesn't make any sense unless you're under the mistaken impression that analogies are tautologies.
I did not claim that fraud was exactly the same as misinformation.
Then why are you posting here? Misinformation is not factual, and causes verifiable harm.My argument boils down to not wanting to restrict speech that is technically factual, or speech that isn't causing verifiable harm. Hell, since there's mobs of millions of Americans spamming this bullshit, trying to find who "shot the gun" would be nearly impossible.
Lying about that just makes you a liar, it isn't a counterpoint.
No, that's not intent, because they could simply be the gullible bastard who believed it. A person could simply say they believed it to be true, because that's what they were told.
These are monstrous hurdles to climb in the case of misinformation. if they were easy, then this would have been settled in the Supreme Court years ago.
So, if it's easy, then where are those lawsuits? heck, no further laws would seem to be necessary, and you can take all those individuals to court. Do you honestly think the SCOTUS would rule n your favor?