What kept you playing WoW in the past? What made it fun to play?

[Relapses]

But it wasn't adequately answered. You've been asked multiple times why a badge system för casuals would make the game less fun for you and every single time you've essentially answered "I don't like it".
That's not a reason, that's an emotion. Until you can give a valid reason why a system for a different target audience than yourself would make the game less fun for you people are going to keep asking.
It's okay to say that you don't want filthy casuals to have the same shines as you, there's no shame in being selfish.

Except I did answer it. I said that I don't have a problem with badge systems further than me preferring the current system since I like the feeling of loot coming from a dungeon instead of a token. I even went further and said that I'm also fine with more deterministic loot options as I feel the current system is a bit too reliant on RNG. I then went even one step further and clarified that I'm fine with everybody, even filthy casuals, having access to gear up to the Heroic item level. I simply do not think that BiS Mythic gear should be deterministic nor should it be on a vendor. This is too much of a reward for doing literally nothing. I believe that a game should encourage its players to engage with difficult content and the best way for that to happen in WoW is to keep the highest rewards locked behind the hardest content. You want to frame my viewpoint as "hating casuals" when I'm simply stating my opinion on a subject.

[Ekis]

Except I did answer it. I said that I don't have a problem with badge systems further than me preferring the current system since I like the feeling of loot coming from a dungeon instead of a token. I even went further and said that I'm also fine with more deterministic loot options as I feel the current system is a bit too reliant on RNG. I then went even one step further and clarified that I'm fine with everybody, even filthy casuals, having access to gear up to the Heroic item level. I simply do not think that BiS Mythic gear should be deterministic nor should it be on a vendor. This is too much of a reward for doing literally nothing. I believe that a game should encourage its players to engage with difficult content and the best way for that to happen in WoW is to keep the highest rewards locked behind the hardest content. You want to frame my viewpoint as "hating casuals" when I'm simply stating my opinion on a subject.

I agree with this sentiment. I don't hate casuals either, but I don't think things should simply be available to everybody simply because they want it. I have periods where I go casual as well, being married with kids and all. But I want the game to incentivize actually going into challenging content.

[Femininity]

I'm simply stating my opinion on a subject.

...and hand-waving any opinions contrary to yours, decrying them as cynical or attacking their validity directly or indirectly. You need to take a step back and analyze your behavior. I'm feeding at this point, but it's gotten ridiculous.

The plural of anecdote isn't data so I don't really understand what you're going for here.

This kind of nonsense is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Tyranastus]

I've got to say that class design is probably the single largest thing that kept me in the game, and what caused me to unsub. If I was to venture an assumption of where I felt everything went wrong, I would say Legion, but the start of the issue for me probably began in Warlords of Draenor. I was definitely at my happiest with class design from WotLK to MoP, but still found class design to be enjoyable when Blizzard began purging classes of their abilities in WoD. I was always a Hunter main but dabbled in many classes as alts; I was a heavy raider throughout WotLK, Cataclysm, and in the last tier of MoP. Even when I wasn't raiding to a schedule, I still kept a subscription because I was always able to find enjoyment in mundane tasks, such as loremaster achievements, dailies, pvp/arena, and pugs because even when my friends would unsub I still enjoyed the game for how many of the classes played.

If I was to try to create an analogy for my feelings on class design, it's that classes are the vehicle you drive while experiencing different roads - even when the roads everyone was driving on were kind of terrible (Cataclysm), I still enjoyed the drive just to take my car out and feel how it performed and handled. When you flip the scenario, it doesn't matter how good the road is, if the car I'm driving is uncomfortable and performs terribly, I lose interest.

There's more to describe that is specific to my feelings on Hunter class design, but there's no point going into it here. Suffice it to say that I feel all class design has suffered over the last few expansions and without solid class design, I no longer enjoy the game.

[Relapses]

...and hand-waving any opinions contrary to yours, decrying them as cynical or attacking their validity directly or indirectly. You need to take a step back and analyze your behavior. I'm feeding at this point, but it's gotten ridiculous.

I'm not hand-waving anybody's opinion. I was asked for my own opinion and I stated it. The fact that my opinion has resulted in multiple unprompted personal attacks isn't a fault of my own. I guess I have a controversial opinion because I don't think badge gear is the magical panacea for all of WoW's problems like everybody else does.

Oh well.

This kind of nonsense is exactly what I'm talking about.

You responded to me telling you that your claim was anecdotal by saying "well everybody in my guild..." I'm sorry for not taking your singular personal experience as seriously as I'm sure you would have liked but you didn't exactly provide a particularly compelling argument.

[Femininity]

You responded to me telling you that your claim was anecdotal by saying "well everybody in my guild..." I'm sorry for not taking your singular personal experience as seriously as I'm sure you would have liked but you didn't exactly provide a particularly compelling argument.

Yes, my singular personal experience, and dozens, hundreds of others in similar guilds. Just because you can't (won't) see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Your criteria isn't universal. You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said, and spinning it to suit your position. Hence my suggestion that you evaluate your behavior. You're compelled to express your opinion, and have a demonstrable desire to deconstruct the opinions of others. Like I said earlier, not things that are conducive to a productive discussion. But you're not really interested in that, are you?

[sargentos]

Except I did answer it. I said that I don't have a problem with badge systems further than me preferring the current system since I like the feeling of loot coming from a dungeon instead of a token. I even went further and said that I'm also fine with more deterministic loot options as I feel the current system is a bit too reliant on RNG. I then went even one step further and clarified that I'm fine with everybody, even filthy casuals, having access to gear up to the Heroic item level. I simply do not think that BiS Mythic gear should be deterministic nor should it be on a vendor. This is too much of a reward for doing literally nothing. I believe that a game should encourage its players to engage with difficult content and the best way for that to happen in WoW is to keep the highest rewards locked behind the hardest content. You want to frame my viewpoint as "hating casuals" when I'm simply stating my opinion on a subject.

I agree, I don't think mythic gear should be able to be earned with valor and bought from a vendor. Valor gear never gave you the highest ilvl gear, but just another avenue for gear and gearing up alts. But I do think it's something the game needs for us filthy casuals. In Cata, for example, the valor vendor for the first raiding tier had 359 gear, which was normal raid gear, and heroic 372 gear you could buy with tokens from bosses in those raids. But, back then we only had 2 difficulties of raiding vs 4 now? I mentioned in another post on here maybe they make valor gear near what normal raid gear would be, and possibly in a .5 patch you can upgrade that gear somewhat close to heroic. Just a thought.

[Relapses]

I agree, I don't think mythic gear should be able to be earned with valor and bought from a vendor. I don't think valor gear was ever that way. But I do think it's something the game needs for us filthy casuals. In Cata, for example, the valor vendor for the first raiding tier had 359 gear, which was normal raid gear, and heroic 372 gear you could buy with tokens from bosses in those raids. But, back then we only had 2 difficulties of raiding vs 4 now? I mentioned in another post on here maybe they make valor gear near what normal raid gear would be, and possibly in a .5 patch you can upgrade that gear somewhat close to heroic. Just a thought.

The issue with too much deterministic loot is that if it's too deterministic the game simply becomes a checklist of things to complete so you can get BiS and quit playing. I like the current dynamic of dungeons as it gives you something to look forward to at the end of the run. If you can get a full Heroic item-level set off a vendor, however, this dynamic all but vanishes and instead makes dungeons feel like just something you do on your way to getting the gear you want. Personally, I'd just make a couple of Heroic item raid items purchasable with an item that comes from the Great Vault or something to that effect (on top of the current rewards, not in replace of them).

[Indigenously Abled]

oh ya. wod is just vastly overshadowed by things like the garrison. the expac itself wasn't bad. the class design, quests, raids, etc were all great. the issue is blizz didn't make enough content for the expac and there was little to no incentive to leave your garrison.

i can play a fun character in a bad game for days. i can't be bothered to play an unfun character in a good game (or below par in the case of shadowlands).

I feel like this is a fairly common sentiment. I long for the day when class design takes center stage again (if we ever get to that point).

[Relapses]

Yes, my singular personal experience, and dozens, hundreds of others in similar guilds. Just because you can't (won't) see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Your criteria isn't universal. You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said, and spinning it to suit your position. Hence my suggestion that you evaluate your behavior. You're compelled to express your opinion, and have a demonstrable desire to deconstruct the opinions of others. Like I said earlier, not things that are conducive to a productive discussion. But you're not really interested in that, are you?

When you only seem interested in making gross oversimplifications of anybody who disagrees with your viewpoint (gear is just a tool used by "angry manchildren" to mask their inability to play the game) you can't blame me for disengaging with your position. There's some truth to what you're saying but I think what differentiates a good player from a great player isn't just gear alone; it's having the gear and knowing how to maximize its potential.

[Soon-TM]

But it wasn't adequately answered. You've been asked multiple times why a badge system för casuals would make the game less fun for you and every single time you've essentially answered "I don't like it".
That's not a reason, that's an emotion. Until you can give a valid reason why a system for a different target audience than yourself would make the game less fun for you people are going to keep asking.
It's okay to say that you don't want filthy casuals to have the same shines as you, there's no shame in being selfish.

You see, for some people fun doesn't lie in doing whatever kind of content you and your pals find enticing, but rather in acting like big, angry gatekeepers. After all, what can possibly be more fun than classifying your fellow players into worthy or unworthy?

[Ekis]

The issue with too much deterministic loot is that if it's too deterministic the game simply becomes a checklist of things to complete so you can get BiS and quit playing. I like the current dynamic of dungeons as it gives you something to look forward to at the end of the run. If you can get a full Heroic item-level set off a vendor, however, this dynamic all but vanishes and instead makes dungeons feel like just something you do on your way to getting the gear you want. Personally, I'd just make a couple of Heroic item raid items purchasable with an item that comes from the Great Vault or something to that effect (on top of the current rewards, not in replace of them).

I actually like more deterministic options when it comes to loot. I know people don't want others to quit, but at the same time I don't really want a proverbial treadmill when it comes to gearing either. That was one of the things I liked about the expansions prior to warforging/titanforging happening. I remember in I think HFC when I got that one trinket that snapshotted damage and felt happy but then felt down because "Well, you still got Mythic Warforged/Titanforged to get". I like feeling "complete", if that makes sense.

[Femininity]

When you only seem interested in making gross oversimplifications of anybody who disagrees with your viewpoint (gear is just a tool used by "angry manchildren" to mask their inability to play the game) you can't blame me for disengaging with your position. There's some truth to what you're saying but I think what differentiates a good player from a great player isn't just gear alone; it's having the gear and knowing how to maximize its potential.

Accuses me of gross oversimplifications. Proceeds to grossly oversimplify my position. Alright, I've fed enough, I'm out. Have a good one.

[Relapses]

Accuses me of gross oversimplifications. Proceeds to grossly oversimplify my position. Alright, I've fed enough, I'm out. Have a good one.

You said you were out before you replied twice to me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Femininity]

You see, for some people fun doesn't lie in doing whatever kind of content you and your pals find enticing, but rather in acting like big, angry gatekeepers. After all, what can possibly be more fun than classifying your fellow players into worthy or unworthy?

My internet time wasting is superior to your internet time wasting. I need the better internet time wasting gear, so I can waste time more efficiently, and you can just continue wasting time with the rest of the peasantry.

Stat templates when?

- - - Updated - - -

I actually like more deterministic options when it comes to loot. I know people don't want others to quit, but at the same time I don't really want a proverbial treadmill when it comes to gearing either. That was one of the things I liked about the expansions prior to warforging/titanforging happening. I remember in I think HFC when I got that one trinket that snapshotted damage and felt happy but then felt down because "Well, you still got Mythic Warforged/Titanforged to get". I like feeling "complete", if that makes sense.

Scrapping the War/Titan forging system is a step toward more deterministic rewards. There are plenty of players that like having the theoretical 'best' or 'best for me, for now' without worrying about having an 'inferior' version of a piece of loot.

[Echocho]

The issue with too much deterministic loot is that if it's too deterministic the game simply becomes a checklist of things to complete so you can get BiS and quit playing. I like the current dynamic of dungeons as it gives you something to look forward to at the end of the run. If you can get a full Heroic item-level set off a vendor, however, this dynamic all but vanishes and instead makes dungeons feel like just something you do on your way to getting the gear you want. Personally, I'd just make a couple of Heroic item raid items purchasable with an item that comes from the Great Vault or something to that effect (on top of the current rewards, not in replace of them).

Yet FFXIV does exactly that and it's probably their best and most appreciated system. It doesn't make you quit, on the contrary it keep you subbed for next weeks piece of loot

[Relapses]

Yet FFXIV does exactly that and it's probably their best and most appreciated system. It doesn't make you quit, on the contrary it keep you subbed for next weeks piece of loot

That's cool.

[Adamas102]

Except I did answer it. I said that I don't have a problem with badge systems further than me preferring the current system since I like the feeling of loot coming from a dungeon instead of a token. I even went further and said that I'm also fine with more deterministic loot options as I feel the current system is a bit too reliant on RNG. I then went even one step further and clarified that I'm fine with everybody, even filthy casuals, having access to gear up to the Heroic item level. I simply do not think that BiS Mythic gear should be deterministic nor should it be on a vendor. This is too much of a reward for doing literally nothing. I believe that a game should encourage its players to engage with difficult content and the best way for that to happen in WoW is to keep the highest rewards locked behind the hardest content. You want to frame my viewpoint as "hating casuals" when I'm simply stating my opinion on a subject.

I don't disagree with a lot of your sentiments around badges, and I'm totally fine with BiS gear only being accessible at the highest level of raiding. That's all fine. However, I do disagree with the bolded points.

First off, to get badges you LITERALLY have to do SOMETHING. I know what you're suggesting is the all too common mentality that if it isn't content of X level of difficulty then it doesn't count, but this is a game and even if you're doing piss easy content you're still playing and it should still be fun and rewarding. No one suggests that the only true way to enjoy a game of pickup basketball is to play it at an NBA level of competitiveness.

I also don't think games SHOULD encourage engaging with more difficult content. I think it's good to have different difficulties for players who enjoy that sort of thing, but from a design perspective you don't want to have systems that make players feel left behind if they're not willing or able to complete the most challenging content. You certainly CAN make games like that, you just have to accept that you're going to alienate the vast majority of gamers who just want their video games to be laid back fun, not some sort of training simulator for learning how to min/max stats and improving their motor skills. I think enjoying challenging game content is a purely personal thing, not something that games should try to push onto their participants.

[Perudo]

In the past it was the community, the gameplay was okay, and still is just okay, but the game was essentially a giant chatroom, it wasn’t about being world first, or maxing out your gear as quick as possible, the joy was just logging on for the time you had and enjoying the company. Its the reason people say it took months to hit 60-70

This. The people I played with.

[Relapses]

I don't disagree with a lot of your sentiments around badges, and I'm totally fine with BiS gear only being accessible at the highest level of raiding. That's all fine. However, I do disagree with the bolded points.

First off, to get badges you LITERALLY have to do SOMETHING. I know what you're suggesting is the all too common mentality that if it isn't content of X level of difficulty then it doesn't count, but this is a game and even if you're doing piss easy content you're still playing and it should still be fun and rewarding. No one suggests that the only true way to enjoy a game of pickup basketball is to play it at an NBA level of competitiveness.

I also don't think games SHOULD encourage engaging with more difficult content. I think it's good to have different difficulties for players who enjoy that sort of thing, but from a design perspective you don't want to have systems that make players feel left behind if they're not willing or able to complete the most challenging content. You certainly CAN make games like that, you just have to accept that you're going to alienate the vast majority of gamers who just want their video games to be laid back fun, not some sort of training simulator for learning how to min/max stats and improving their motor skills. I think enjoying challenging game content is a purely personal thing, not something that games should try to push onto their participants.

You're free to play the game at whichever level you feel comfortable. I didn't mean to imply that the game should force you to do something you're not comfortable with. But if you are only comfortable doing WQs and grinding the easiest content in the game, why should you be rewarded with the best gear? For both Legion and BfA it felt weird as fuck to randomly get a BiS item from a WQ. And while I get that there are "no victims" in this kind of scenario, it just never felt like it belonged in this game. But to each their own.