Alec Baldwin fires prop gun on movie set, killing cinematographer

[gondrin]

Disagree. So what about it.

It could have been Wayne LaPierre(CEO of the NRA) and I would still say the same thing. He wouldn't be held responsible because the gun is supposed to be checked by multiple people before being handed off to the actor. I cannot stand Wayne LaPierre as he is one of the main reasons why the NRA is such a shit organization now. Understand, this is NOT about the NRA and I was only using the CEO as an example. I will not reply to anything about the NRA after this post.

The only people trying to bring politics in it are people like you trying to blame him BECAUSE he is a liberal.

[PhaelixWW]

The producers that were actually in charge were Allen Cheney and Ryan Donnell Smith of Thomasville Pictures. The culpability for this is pretty much confined to those two for creating the unsafe environment (including not having a dedicated armorer), the armorer and assistant director for handling the firearm and not making sure it wasn't loaded with live ammunition, and most importantly, whomever brought the live ammunition on set and loaded it in the firearm in the first place.

[ghotihook]

I stated many pages ago, that as a producer, he is likely liable for running such a shitty set. Considering he's also an actor in that, it's clear he's more hands on. I never said he's the only one who would be liable as a producer, merely that is how he would be liable... not as an actor.

He is an executive producer as stated many pages ago. And executive producers can have all kinds of roles. Someone getting funding who may never see a single set could or talk to anyone that's being hired could be an executive producer. Unless it's documented that Alec specifically was in charge of hiring both the prop master and the armorer he more than likely had no influence and thereby is not responsible to any level.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Somehow I don't think that professionals sit down and get a legal tutorial on state laws before they fly there for a few weeks/months for business.

If he was handed the gun by people on set legally responsible for the safety of firearms on the set, and they told him it was a safe gun, that's on them. Doesn't matter who they'd have handed the gun to, even Charlton bloody Heston. He wouldn't be at fault.



That's a rule, not a law. It's irrelevant in a court of law.

If it's a gun they would it has to do with liability, especially guns that alternate between live rounds and caps.

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You've cited nothing to suggest this is the case.

The "always act as if the weapon is live" is literally impossible in many circumstances; in military training exercises, for instance, or, yes, on film sets. It's a good basic principle for general firearms handling, but it is not a universal truth for all circumstances.

Much like principles like "don't stick anything metal in a socket plug" makes sense, as a general principle, but if you're an electrician or otherwise know what you're doing and are effecting repairs with proper safety protocols, you can ignore that, and indeed, have to in some cases.

Or "don't lick other people under any circumstances", which makes sense when you tell that to your 5 year old, but will probably hurt their dating life as an adult.

Folksy maxims aren't legally binding descriptions of liability.

It's well known and understood if you are working with a gun as opposed to a prop. The distinction here is important, then yes if Alec fired a gun and killed someone he is responsible since my last post, I am learning there were caps and live rounds, if Alec knew that then he is at fault.

[Machismo]

He is an executive producer as stated many pages ago. And executive producers can have all kinds of roles. Someone getting funding who may never see a single set could or talk to anyone that's being hired could be an executive producer. Unless it's documented that Alec specifically was in charge of hiring both the prop master and the armorer he more than likely had no influence and thereby is not responsible to any level.

Except, he's an executive producer who is also on set every day, so that should be taken into account. He may have had zero to do with hiring, but considering he was an executive producer who was there, my guess he had an active role in the daily operations.

[Edge-]

Except, he's an executive producer who is also on set every day, so that should be taken into account. He may have had zero to do with hiring, but considering he was an executive producer who was there, my guess he had an active role in the daily operations.

Executive producers don't handle day-to-day operations. They're in charge of money, mostly, keeping things on budget. Not the practical matters of setting up shoots.

[Machismo]

Executive producers don't handle day-to-day operations. They're in charge of money, mostly, keeping things on budget. Not the practical matters of setting up shoots.

Once again, that may absolutely be the case. But, he's an executive producer who was on set every day. Baldwin also seems like the type to be an overbearing asshole and a control freak.

We will definitely find out in the next few months.

[Doctor Amadeus]

The presence of live ammunition on set makes this not a simple accident. I'll keep driving this point home as many times as is required.

Wrong if I hand you a gun, it doesn't matter what I say, if you know it's a gun you check because it's in your hands. It's a tool and a serious weapon designed to kill.

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Short answer; no.

Well, that was easy.

Depends what he knew at the time. If he knew this was a gun as in someone told him it was " A Gold Gun". I have nothing against Alec, All these idiot right-wingers joking and calling him a murderer and what not are fucking stupid, but yeah there is a reason the DA is saying all options are on the table.

I'm 100% sure he is in the clear criminally, civil liability on the other hand he is fucked so to speak. But I am sure he is insured, and I am sure he will sue the production company.

One thing is for sure, laws will likely change to reflect what has happened because this is not the only case of complaints concerning safety issues in Hollywood.

[ghotihook]

Except, he's an executive producer who is also on set every day, so that should be taken into account. He may have had zero to do with hiring, but considering he was an executive producer who was there, my guess he had an active role in the daily operations.

Yea, but until it's proven that he was in charge specifically of hiring those people. I will claim innocent till proven guilty. Don't get me wrong if he was directly in charge of hiring them I am completely on your side. It's just more likely than not that he is not. It's just not typically the role of an EP.

[Machismo]

Yea, but until it's proven that he was in charge specifically of hiring those people. I will claim innocent till proven guilty. Don't get me wrong if he was directly in charge of hiring them I am completely on your side. It's just more likely than not that is is not.

I don't think it's just about hiring, but about day-to-day operations. That seems to be where the real failure was. To put it simply, it was a fucking shitshow.

[PhaelixWW]

Wrong if I hand you a gun, it doesn't matter what I say, if you know it's a gun you check because it's in your hands. It's a tool and a serious weapon designed to kill.

Outside a set environment, sure, but the rules are different on set.

The reality is that Alec Baldwin did "check the gun", by having what were supposed to be the dedicated experts of handling firearms do it for him. That's literally the armorer's job, to act as the safety check for actors who aren't trained to handle firearms.

[Doctor Amadeus]

And someone like Alec Baldwin would do none of that, really. His name is just there practically for the sake of it, makes him some extra bucks.

This is the list of producers:
Alec Baldwin
Matt DelPiano
Ryan Donnell Smith
Anjul Nigam
Ryan Winterstern
Nathan Klingher

Do we really think Alec Baldwin was busy with the ins and outs of the budgeting and hiring and so on? Huge X to doubt.

If his name is on the bond for the insurance to back this moving giving him a vested interest, then yes this list consist of those who will be paying millions in damages.

[PhaelixWW]

He is an executive producer as stated many pages ago.

Except he wasn't even the executive producer. It wasn't his production company. He was just one of many "producers".

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If his name is on the bond for the insurance to back this moving giving him a vested interest, then yes this list consist of those who will be paying millions in damages.

Of course, "financially liable" and "criminally culpable" are not the same.

[Benggaul]

The funny part about this is if Alec Baldwin was a raging conservative instead of a raging liberal (in US terms) we probably see nearly the exact opposite people defending him and attacking him about this obvious accident. Just another example of how politics are pointlessly injected into everything when it is totally unnecessary.

Nope. If it was James Woods instead of Alec Baldwin I'd still feel pretty bad for James Woods in a situation that was clearly not his fault even though I think he's a real piece of shit personally.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Outside a set environment, sure, but the rules are different on set.

The reality is that Alec Baldwin did "check the gun", by having what were supposed to be the dedicated experts of handling firearms do it for him. That's literally the armorer's job, to act as the safety check for actors who aren't trained to handle firearms.

Look I don't know, not even all the people investigating it to know. So I realize you have a point I never worked on a movie production, HOWEVER.


This is the reality, if they used real guns, meaning he was told there was no live rounds in the gun, NO that doesn't absolve him of responsibility, that isn't how that works.

There is a reason for the rule you threat every gun as if it has live rounds period and unless Alec checked himself he is NOT a murderer, and I get what you are saying but he pulled the trigger result ending in someone innocent being killed.

For all we know the one handing him the gun could be the murderer, and NO I am not saying they are, but they could be, anybody could, this is why "Well this person says it was empty" doesn't absolve someone of liability.

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Of course, "financially liable" and "criminally culpable" are not the same.

You are correct and TRUE and Donald Jr and all these asshats saying otherwise are idiot. He hasn't even been called criminally negligent, which if all protocols were followed such as someone who's Prop Master was specifically responsible for the props and or guns, then no Alec is in the clear criminally.

I am only talking liability, that's it nothing more.

[PhaelixWW]

This is the reality, if they used real guns, meaning he was told there was no live rounds in the gun, NO that doesn't absolve him of responsibility, that isn't how that works.

Yes it does.

There is a reason for the rule you threat every gun as if it has live rounds period

I'm literally a licensed firearm safety instructor; I'm quite familiar with the subject. You're confusing good practice with legal requirement.

and unless Alec checked himself he is NOT a murderer, and I get what you are saying but he pulled the trigger result ending in someone innocent being killed.

For all we know the one handing him the gun could be the murderer, and NO I am not saying they are, but they could be, anybody could

I mean, it's not murder at all, unless it's the dumbest murder plot... ever. At worst, it's negligent homicide.

this is why "Well this person says it was empty" doesn't absolve someone of liability.

Yes, it does, when it was the acknowledged job of the person saying it to check that it's safe.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yes it does.



I'm literally a licensed firearm safety instructor; I'm quite familiar with the subject. You're confusing good practice with legal requirement.



I mean, it's not murder at all, unless it's the dumbest murder plot... ever. At worst, it's negligent homicide.



Yes, it does, when it was the acknowledged job of the person saying it to check that it's safe.

Alright I’ll take your word for it in terms this is a movie set.

My fire arms instructor has taught for 40 years including SWAT.

My understanding has always been unless you loaded and unloaded yourself you always assume it’s loaded. If I don’t remember assume it’s loaded.

But I respect and concede you’re more qualified as an instructor.

[Witchblade77]

Alright I’ll take your word for it in terms this is a movie set.

My fire arms instructor has taught for 40 years including SWAT.

My understanding has always been unless you loaded and unloaded yourself you always assume it’s loaded. If I don’t remember assume it’s loaded.

But I respect and concede you’re more qualified as an instructor.

here is a scene from John Wick for you.



do you honestly think that Keanu and every single extra check all the guns and bullets inside (blanks are still bullets) before the scene? before each take?

being an armorer is a full time job on set for a reason.

now.. that is not to say that Alec is not liable at all. he 100% is. not because he fired a gun, he would be liable even if it was another actor. but because he is a producer of that movie who was made AWARE of safety concerns crew had, who had the crew WALK OFF SET hours before due to those safety concerns, and STILL chose not to address them. he chose to distribute a budget in a way that created this situation, he chose to hire non union labor, he is an accessory and enabler of this tragedy. but NOT because he didn't check the gun himself. but because people he hired couldn't be trusted to do their job and he was aware of that and did nothing about it anyway.

[Egomaniac]

here is a scene from John Wick for you.



do you honestly think that Keanu and every single extra check all the guns and bullets inside (blanks are still bullets) before the scene? before each take?

being an armorer is a full time job on set for a reason.

And, to go along with that, not a single person on the set of any John Wick movie has ever been shot with a live round... despite the fact that there have been literally thousands of shots fired in the making of those films. Because all the safety precautions were taken seriously by people that know what they are doing.

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The funny part about this is if Alec Baldwin was a raging conservative instead of a raging liberal (in US terms) we probably see nearly the exact opposite people defending him and attacking him about this obvious accident.

On the contrary, in this thread we can see the people that hate Baldwin because he's a "raging liberal" insisting he face criminal charges because he made fun of Trump for five years. Even the people that would normally defend a gun-wielder accidentally shooting someone.

It's those dirty libs that are focused on who was actually responsible for this accident.

[Witchblade77]

And, to go along with that, not a single person on the set of any John Wick movie has ever been shot with a live round... despite the fact that there have been literally thousands of shots fired in the making of those films. Because all the safety precautions were taken seriously by people that know what they are doing.

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On the contrary, in this thread we can see the people that hate Baldwin because he's a "raging liberal" insisting he face criminal charges because he made fun of Trump for five years. Even the people that would normally defend a gun-wielder accidentally shooting someone.

It's those dirty libs that are focused on who was actually responsible for this accident.

because John wick producers don't skim on paying qualified people.

as for me, I DGAF what Baldwin's political affiliation is. but given what we know about how he was running the production, given the statements from the crew... do you really think he is not at all responsible for what happened? did armorer fuck up? yes. who was responsible for hiring an armorer and NOT addressing safety concerns including those involving armorer when concerns were brought to him? https://variety.com/2021/film/news/a...on-1235097930/

he is as responsible for this incident as an armorer and PA who reportedly handed him the gun (which as far as i know was also a safety violation). he would have still been responsible for the incident even if a different actor was the one pulling the trigger.

Alec was being a dirtbag producer, who would rather pay people as little as possible then pay appropriate wages to qualified union workers. and Halina died because he would rather cut corners to get himself more profits.