Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[Sondrelk]

Do you consider Stardew Valley "challenging"?

Mind you, my reply was a counter argument against games being about challenge, of which the vast majority of games don't really have much of.


IMO flying/no flying relates to a more fundamental issue that plagues MMOs in general: shitty content (usually farming) that must be done to get to non-shit content.

If the "good" content is doing the main questline of a zone and flying hinders doing that content, then by all means block flying until you've done the main questline once.

When people want to fly it's because they consider the world content just shit content that has to be grinded through to get to the good content. Understandably, they just wanna get rid of the bullshit farm/grind/job crap faster and get on with the meat of the game

If they found open world content engaging, they wouldn't want to skip it.

No, Stardew Valley isn't "challenging", but I do consider it to give me a challenge to overcome. It's not a difficult challenge by any stretch, but it's still a baseline level of engagement that allows me to get immersed in the game instead of just breezing through it unhindered.

Navigating the zone on the ground in WoW isnt challenging in that sense either, but it does require some level of thought and planning, enough to make me engage with the game. It also gives actual moments of organic gameplay that I would not get with flying.
Flying takes all those moments away and replaces it with nothing. No challenge, no planning, no engagement, just visual noise on the screen where there should have been a game.

[Guanciale]

I agree, although I would like to amend to your statement for you interpretation of challenging. Games/Entertainment can challenge you in many different ways, mentally (think puzzles), physically (think sports or sc3, where players reach apm of 200-300) or even something as ridiculous sounding a emotionally challenging as well (think people going to horror / action / tragedy movies, that invoke an emotional reaction).

We as humans crave distractions, and that's why entertainment is one of few markets which year on year is expanding without showing any signs of slowing down.

[Vorkreist]

They still require you to play them. Stardew Valley doesnt start by giving you infinite money and resources.
Flying in WoW isnt adding gmaeplay, it's removing it and not replacing it with anything, unless you are one of the players that consider using noclip a bold and innovative way to play Half-Life.

Flying isn't removing anything except tedious shitty ground travel. You are trying hard gymnastics to explain how tedious shitty ground travel is such a critical part of the game that should not be skipped over.
They wanted to remove flying for quite a while and I don't know if you remember the shit show from a few years ago and how many people turned on them and forced them to keep flying. After that they started the design that we still have today. Incredibly tedious shitty ground design with delayed gated flying.

[chiddie]

Pathfinder is, conceptually, a great way to unlock flying.

Having pathfinder have several parts that are time locked or even not available until a future patch? that's when the system fails to deliver.


As soon as you get the reputations, exploration and that kind of stuff for the currently available content you should be able to fly in that content.

Pathfinder concept is cool “per se” but they should cut off the reputation part. Or you should get to revered or whatever level the PF requires by simply completing the story of the zones.

If it was for me, reputations would be completely reworked, it’s a totally outdated mechanic that is only based on stupid timegated grind with useless rewards unless you are a mog addicted.

[Sondrelk]

Flying isn't removing anything except tedious shitty ground travel. You are trying hard gymnastics to explain how tedious shitty ground travel is such a critical part of the game that should not be skipped over.
They wanted to remove flying for quite a while and I don't know if you remember the shit show from a few years ago and how many people turned on them and forced them to keep flying. After that they started the design that we still have today. Incredibly tedious shitty ground design with delayed gated flying.

Flying does not offer any gameplay at all. Ground movement does.

Say you need to get from one end of Revendreth to the other.
Without flying you have to consider fastest movement options, you coudl use flight paths, which are the fastest but also means you cannot pick up the things you go past without running back. Or you could go by ground mounts, and get everything in your way, but also go much slower. You might want to take a flight path halfway, then run to a world quest between that and the endpoint. Maybe on the way you see a rare you have not encountered before, maybe one that drops something cool.
All of this movement has to further consider what movement options are available, whether that be goblin gliders, unique character specific options like double jump, or even zone specific options.
All of these small gamepaly moments coalesces into one cohesive whole where movement is a gameplay avenue in itself that can spawn organic moments of gameplay. Maybe yo uwant to climb something that isnt necesarily meant to be climbed, like the various mountains in BfA. Climbing Mount Neverest in MoP was similar in that while it was intended to be climbed, it was never really signposted and required searching around the various nooks and bends of Kun'lai to find the path to the top where you were rewarded for the effort.

With flying all of this collapses into a single option. Mount up, and go straight there, maybe stopping on the way if something interesting is there.
Zone design is pointless, enviromental puzzles are pointless, individual movement options are pointless. Stealth is something I used frequently on my alts in the open world before flying, now it's barely used all outside the Maw.


The game is called WORLD of Warcraft, it's advertised as an open-world MMORPG. It's not a tiny vestigial nub on the side like Pet Battles, it's meant to eb a large important part of the game. And the version of flying we have in WoW is nothing but a detriment to it.
No other open-world game has flying this powerful. Even catharsis based sandboxes at least require you to use some level of skill to take off, not to mention actually finding the means of travel by air. And the reason they do so is because if you could just press a button, and fly unhindered by gravity at maximum speed anywhere without any chance of crashing or stalling out, then the actual open world stops being an organic sandbox.

[sam86]

so easy to answer this: the 2 most successful exps didn't have fucking pathfinding timegate bullshit at all: TBC & Wrath
so yeah it is a 'hard question to answer

[Ghanir]

I'd love to see them design a few zones with flying in mind or gated with flying as access. In WotLK you had several zones at the start designed with ground movement in mind, and by the time you reach Stormy Peaks it all shifts to flying, and Icecrown being split between the two.

You could design a platform of zones in a way where you require "training" in order to traverse the zone with flying. It could be reputation, time-gating, or anything really. Preferably something that engages you daily in order to better acclimate (story-wise) to the area.
This would however lock you out of the last few zones that require flying for access. In order to bypass that for the first few months or however long the acclimation process should take, you can give the player some tools to access the last few zones without the need for flying, but locks you out of the areas where flying is necessary. (Imagine Icecrowns slopes & hills but without having access to the ridges of the zones where you would need flying to get up to).

With a world designed as such you could implement a select few areas you can access with flying in the earlier zones which would incentivise exploring with flying later on. I guess the problem you'd run into is the balance between the locked out areas not being able to be important enough cause you don't have access to it for quite some time, and them being too small to matter since you can't have an entire platform of zones having ground movement in mind for months before you give access to the locked areas.
A zone like Twilight Highlands I personally really enjoyed both thematically and design-wise.. at the start. It's a great leveling zone, and the areas locked away for later are enjoyable themselves, but those areas are the only thing that matters after you reach max level.

A really tricky way to get right, this idea of having flying in the game, while not making it too strong but instead engaging and rewarding (and not being locked away for several months purely for said reason).

[DarkAmbient]

It's there to benefit the game.
I am not sure you have ever played a videogame, but the purpose is generally to be challenging, and you don't get a challenge by removing all the obstacles.

If a videogame was entirely beneficial to the player then they wouldnt exist at all, since all videogames are pointless and a waste of time in the grand scheme. We still play them because the point is to be given a challenge in which to immerse ourselves.

No need for the condescending tone. If you don't like flying then don't fly. This conversation is about Pathfinder. And WoW questing has never been challenging, save some old elite quests. If I want challenge in WoW I'll do PvP or instanced group content on higher difficulties.

[Sondrelk]

No need for the condescending tone. If you don't like flying then don't fly. This conversation is about Pathfinder. And WoW questing has never been challenging, save some old elite quests. If I want challenge in WoW I'll do PvP or instanced group content on higher difficulties.

And why should those who enjoy open world content be the ones to take the hit here?
You are the ones who don't enjoy open world content, stop demanding it caters to your wishes.
Should we expect this mindset in other parts of the game? Should raids be trivial because some players hate learning fights? Or PvP ranking be made meaningless because not everyone loves it?

The notion that players who are outspoken in their hatred for open world content should be the one who get to dictate how it should be consumed is absurd. Just sit in your faction capital and get summoned to the raid entrance if you despise actually playing the game so much.

[Dystemper]

The game is bleeding subs , no its not healthy any more. This game seriously needs fresh new blood, and people like Ion let go. No way can it withstand another SL type expansion. The issue is, will Blizzard spend the amount if money needed to revitalize a almost 20 year old game who's player base is giving up on it.

- - - Updated - - -

Areal combat, combat mounts that can be geared , dog fights , etc etc. They really missed a golden opportunity.

[Twdft]

And why should those who enjoy open world content be the ones to take the hit here?
You are the ones who don't enjoy open world content, stop demanding it caters to your wishes.

What hit exactly?

It's been mentioned a couple times already, you can choose to opt out of flying. For the last expansions all areas are developed with ground mounts in mind and if you enjoy it simply keep riding. Other people flying takes nothing away from you.

[Geckoo]

What hit exactly?

It's been mentioned a couple times already, you can choose to opt out of flying. For the last expansions all areas are developed with ground mounts in mind and if you enjoy it simply keep riding. Other people flying takes nothing away from you.

This will always be an impossible argument.

Sure, one player flying won't affect another player that chooses not to fly.

But since flying is very superior to ground mounts in terms of efficiency, it becomes the way to go for almost everybody. It's a rule that is specially true for WoW: players usually choose the path of least resistance.

There are a lot of interactions that happen because of how the world is designed on the ground and the choices you have to deal with those interactions. Is not only dealing with enemies or a messed up terrain design (wich is a fine criticism to make by the way), it's also about having a very detailed zones, secrets, an occasional jumping puzzle... essentially, making a zone feel more alive through gameplay.

I get it, the game is old, the world is boring, playing your class is not that fun outside of challenging content... but here is what happens: As stated before, given the choice, most people will choose flying. So from a developer point of view, why invest time and resources making a better world on the ground if everybody will just fly over?

And that's when one player's choice can in the end affect the other.

The original sin was adding flying as they did on the first place: it was all benefits, no downside other than cost. Now they can't take it away, too late for that... even too late to give it a twist and add limitations that actually provide some kind of gameplay when using a flying mount. So yes, pathfinder is a great compromise if they stop messing around with timing (and reputations).

[Twdft]

but here is what happens: As stated before, given the choice, most people will choose flying. So from a developer point of view, why invest time and resources making a better world on the ground if everybody will just fly over?

And that's when one player's choice can in the end affect the other.

Yes, most people will fly.

But again: new areas are already developed for ground mounts for the last expansions. Blizzard invested time and resources doing this with the knowledge that they will allow flying eventually. So that fear is baseless.

And also again: how is me flying affecting your enjoyment of always riding ground mounts?

[Lolites]

The whole idea of a game is to pose a challenge

eh... no... for some people, but definitely not for everyone, whole idea of game is to have FUN
some people have fun bcs its challenging, some people have fun for other reasons

[Lochton]

Well then your car which you use to commute to work and do groceries is also a luxury, isn't it?

Yes, common sense, is it not?

Why are cars so cheap nowadays?

Because the market is bloated, and production has been made cheaper, yet they hold a higher cost the older they become. And if you tried to use your car topic to try and shoot down what I said, I earned my car, I worked for it, I didn't just pull out coin to buy it right off the bat. I know, we work for our coin, but I worked to make said vehicle work as well, not everyone holds coin for a brand new one.

Yes, I am being sarcasting. Flight makes travel in WoW bearable. So many games out there have a better travel system.

Which MMO has a better travel system which does not demand you to actually put work into it anymore? Dunno, don't know many currently, I know some that hold more work, and their flight is temporary. FFXIV has you n*gasp* explore the map and do content before you can fly.

And more so, this comes from a guy who spent somewhere of 200k or more on flight during Wrath, the expenses have dropped and dropped, to almost hitting nothing with Pathfinder - heck, pathfinder has gotten me gold. For me, one Pathfinder (which is my demand, shouldn't be more of them for one expansion unless new zones) is a good investment. I save gold and time just having to do one pathfinder. Pathfinder should have you explore the zone fully, and have done the main storyline for the zone, no reputation demand, so we're at the minimum demand of work, which FFXIV almost asks you to do.

[Geckoo]

Yes, most people will fly.

But again: new areas are already developed for ground mounts for the last expansions. Blizzard invested time and resources doing this with the knowledge that they will allow flying eventually. So that fear is baseless.

You said it yourself: they are developed with the knowledge that eventually they will allow flying.
Eventually is not as soon as the game is released and they actually ask you to play through the whole thing for some time before allowing flying on it. Even if pathfinder worked as i believe it should (no 'patch' time gates), it would still be asking you to experience max level content on the ground before being able to fly, so the effort put into making those zones actually makes sense.

And also again: how is me flying affecting your enjoyment of always riding ground mounts?

It is not. Again. Any kind of impact comes from a developer point of view, not from how we affect each other as players. That's why it's an impossible argument, because the ones that need to defend their work are the ones making the content, not me.

As a player i don't have to defend anything, and believe me, i don't give a flying fuck about how you play the game compared to me or vice versa. All i know is that this debate is not about some kind of romantic vision of how the game should be experienced, to me is simply about understanding two important things:
- The path of least resistance always wins; This has never been about choice, is about efficiency... you are not taking a walk in the park, you are playing to accomplish certain goals. Guess what, flying to those goals is way more efficient than having to climb to them.
- There needs to be a reson to invest into creating an interesting world just as much as there needs to be a reson to actually go and play on that world.

Basically, i simply understand that in order to have an interesting world full of details and stuff to do, not being able to fly so they actually care about making that kind of world is a price that i am more than willing to pay.

[Sondrelk]

Yes, most people will fly.

But again: new areas are already developed for ground mounts for the last expansions. Blizzard invested time and resources doing this with the knowledge that they will allow flying eventually. So that fear is baseless.

And also again: how is me flying affecting your enjoyment of always riding ground mounts?

Imagine if raids had a button that just let you win instantly.
Sure, you could in theory just ignore it, but eventually a raid boss is a bit too annoying and you just want the loot. Would you then be able to stop yourself from pressing the button just on principle? Especially when you have an entire group that might not care about actually having a challenge to overcome.

And the game is designed for ground mounts, why does the game need flying at all? Why can't we have other gameplay options to make things easier over time that doesn't involve just flat out removing gameplay? The bag of Twigin treats from the Necrolord covenant is a good example, or Avianas feather from WoD.
9.2 is going for a system that gives you an entirely open world focused talent tree, why can't this be how open world content is trivialized instead?

[ohwell]

What hit exactly?

It's been mentioned a couple times already, you can choose to opt out of flying. For the last expansions all areas are developed with ground mounts in mind and if you enjoy it simply keep riding. Other people flying takes nothing away from you.

Bad argument is bad and has always been bad. That's like saying in professional sports everyone can use PEDs, but hey if you disagree nobody is forcing you to use them....oh wait but you'll suffer as a result. Just stop using that tired bad argument. Hell I think when this thread was made months ago I had to stomp someone else using it.

[Sondrelk]

eh... no... for some people, but definitely not for everyone, whole idea of game is to have FUN
some people have fun bcs its challenging, some people have fun for other reasons

Players tend to have fun with games because of gameplay. Removing all restrictions is only a temporary high in that regard, it gives a brief moment of freedom before that freedom becomes the new norm, at which point you have nothing from it.

If you don't have fun with open world the solution is to ask developers to not put the stuff you need there, and let you avoid it completely, not to demand they cater to your wish to get the benefits without any challenge.

[Snufflupagus]

Flying is not “healthy” for the game, period. The more it’s gated the healthier the game, but it’s impossible to have a “healthy” WoW with flying in.