we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[potis]

My complaint is that gearing for the content I enjoy goes too fast, and your response is "YOU ARE TOO SLOW". It's so comically nonsensical that I don't really know what to do but laugh.

Or they could just do what all the other games (and wow used to) do: Make the game for the average player rather than starting with the hardcore and working backward.

You do understand that, thats exactly what people wanted right? The first 8 years it was literally people crying for exactly how the game is designed now, that they want "cool gear also" without having to raid, thats why catch up changed per patch and LFR appeared?

Your type of player literally kept crying for it, you have it and you dont like it, decide.

And for your second part, you do understand thats why M+ from from +1 to +infinite, and LFR to Mythic is 4 difficulties, right? Cause its designed for everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

Then why do over a third of FF14 max level players complete the hard version of the raids?

Relapses already answered, but FFXIV has choreography raiding. I wont go about easy and hard, but it basically has "Retard proof" raiding, always same color marking, and the RNG is minimal to non-existent, while everything has like a 3-5 second activation timer, in most videos.

[Relapses]

You do understand that, thats exactly what people wanted right? The first 8 years it was literally people crying for exactly how the game is designed now, that they want "cool gear also" without having to raid, thats why catch up changed per patch and LFR appeared?

Catch-up has been a thing since TBC with badge gear. The LFR was implemented because Blizzard couldn't justify spending the massive time investment they did on raids when only a very small fraction of the playerbase ever stepped foot in them.

[NineSpine]

Because it's easy as shit, lmfao.

I've done mythic raids in WoW (albeit not since Legion), and I've done savages in FF14. Savage is absolutely comparable to higher heroic - lower mythic difficulty.

[potis]

Catch-up has been a thing since TBC with badge gear. The LFR was implemented because Blizzard couldn't justify spending the massive time investment they did on raids when only a very small fraction of the playerbase ever stepped foot in them.

Yes and no, discussed this before, badge gear didnt have a full set of "ignore 2 raid tiers" every patch, and it took them months to grind a few items.

This changed in ICC dungeons for the first time, and since then it got improved on, they dont even do new dungeons, they simply bounce the old the last 3 expansions etc.

[Relapses]

I've done mythic raids in WoW (albeit not since Legion), and I've done savages in FF14. Savage is absolutely comparable to higher heroic - lower mythic difficulty.

So, again, easy as shit? I don't know man. I don't raid anymore but I like the fact that truly difficult raid content exists in this game should I be interested in seeking it out. And high M+ is a decent, extremely accessible alternative for that desire in the meantime.

[NineSpine]

You do understand that, thats exactly what people wanted right? The first 8 years it was literally people crying for exactly how the game is designed now, that they want "cool gear also" without having to raid, thats why catch up changed per patch and LFR appeared?

Your type of player literally kept crying for it, you have it and you dont like it, decide.

And for your second part, you do understand thats why M+ from from +1 to +infinite, and LFR to Mythic is 4 difficulties, right? Cause its designed for everyone.

If it's designed for everyone, why is the engagement level so piss poor?

I don't know who this fictitious group of people you are talking about is that said "We want to be fully geared from dungeons and BGs in a day or two". You have a bad habit of basing you're arguments on obnoxious straw men.

Relapses already answered, but FFXIV has choreography raiding. I wont go about easy and hard, but it basically has "Retard proof" raiding, always same color marking, and the RNG is minimal to non-existent, while everything has like a 3-5 second activation timer, in most videos.

This is how I know you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of the activation timers and advance notice of mechanics is mitigated heavily in savage. That stuff is all over NORMAL mode, and in most cases what you get in savage is 1/10th what you get with adding in wow.

- - - Updated - - -

So, again, easy as shit? I don't know man. I don't raid anymore but I like the fact that truly difficult raid content exists in this game should I be interested in seeking it out. And high M+ is a decent, extremely accessible alternative for that desire in the meantime.

You can't make both of these arguments at the same time:

1. More people do savage in FF14 because its easy.
2. WoW is easy until late-mythic bosses.

They contradict each other.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes and no, discussed this before, badge gear didnt have a full set of "ignore 2 raid tiers" every patch, and it took them months to grind a few items.

This changed in ICC dungeons for the first time, and since then it got improved on, they dont even do new dungeons, they simply bounce the old the last 3 expansions etc.

Now this is absolutely funny. You keep insisting that what I am asking for NEVER existed, and then you go right ahead and admit I was right: "and it took them months to grind a few items."

[potis]

Now this is absolutely funny. You keep insisting that what I am asking for NEVER existed, and then you go right ahead and admit I was right: "and it took them months to grind a few items.

How is, the way "Campaign" story is design, which you didnt understand how it worked, to dungeons, suddenly being compared?

Secondly, i saw a "World first Savage" raid a couple years ago, the boss had the same ability Mueh Zala has, the blast the platform 3 times, it had 7 seconds activation timer, drop the bullshit about difficulty.

[NineSpine]

How is, the way "Campaign" story is design, which you didnt understand how it worked, to dungeons, suddenly being compared?

Secondly, i saw a "World first Savage" raid a couple years ago, the boss had the same ability Mueh Zala has, the blast the platform 3 times, it had 7 seconds activation timer, drop the bullshit about difficulty.

It's interesting how the people who play FF14 and WoW can all seem to agree where the difficulty level lies, but everyone who has only played WoW has incredibly strong opinions and thinks all the people who played both games are wrong.

But sure, let's keep pretending that when you do mythic raids in wow you don't have adding with minutes of notifications before most of the abilities go off.

- - - Updated - - -

How is, the way "Campaign" story is design, which you didnt understand how it worked, to dungeons, suddenly being compared?

I said I liked when I could run dungeons for long term gearing goals, and you insisted this NEVER HAPPENED and TOTALLY INSANE, yet here you are telling me how badge gear farming took months.

[potis]

It's interesting how the people who play FF14 and WoW can all seem to agree where the difficulty level lies, but everyone who has only played WoW has incredibly strong opinions and thinks all the people who played both games are wrong.

But sure, let's keep pretending that when you do mythic raids in wow you don't have adding with minutes of notifications before most of the abilities go off.

My offtank has been playing FFXIV from when it got closed down and relaunched, i know more about you than FFXIV and i have never played it, because i know my offtank has done actual Savage raids when he should, compared to your level of play, as i said, dont tell me about things, i know your skill level by your posts.

I said multiple times i havent done "Mythic" raids since 2010, i do the bare minimum required to have a relevant character, and i get AOTC with friends and e-friends.

Again, videos of savage raids exist, things look pretty, but so slow, my brain explodes from boredom, if people enjoy that , good for them, i cant play that joke of a game.

- - - Updated - - -

I said I liked when I could run dungeons for long term gearing goals, and you insisted this NEVER HAPPENED and TOTALLY INSANE, yet here you are telling me how badge gear farming took months.

Lol, thats what you were talking about, so again, you are defending your post, by the fact you are so terrible and slow at the game, that badge gear somehow matter to you, so you liked the fact it took you 6 months to farm 5 items with badge gear, only for better badge gear to release at the 4th month, so you can now farm 2 currencies, to again, get barely any actual increase in the next 6 months to repeat the process.

[NineSpine]

My offtank has been playing FFXIV from when it got closed down and relaunched, i know more about you than FFXIV and i have never played it, because i know my offtank has done actual Savage raids when he should, compared to your level of play, as i said, dont tell me about things, i know your skill level by your posts.

I said multiple times i havent done "Mythic" raids since 2010, i do the bare minimum required to have a relevant character, and i get AOTC with friends and e-friends.

Again, videos of savage raids exist, things look pretty, but so slow, my brain explodes from boredom, if people enjoy that , good for them, i cant play that joke of a game.

"i know more about you than FFXIV and i have never played it"

A whole lot of arrogance, followed up by no knowledge whatsoever.

But clearly you know more than Limit Max and his group of world first raiders that actually cleared the savage content. They are noobs compared to you in your infinite genius because you have a friend that played FF14.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol, thats what you were talking about, so again, you are defending your post, by the fact you are so terrible and slow at the game, that badge gear somehow matter to you, so you liked the fact it took you 6 months to farm 5 items with badge gear, only for better badge gear to release at the 4th month, so you can now farm 2 currencies, to again, get barely any actual increase in the next 6 months to repeat the process.

Yes, I liked having long term goals from playing casual content. It was nice during the years I didn't have time to raid. What is so hard to understand about this and who shit in your oatmeal so hard that it makes you so upset at the idea that someone wants to do different content from you?

[potis]

But clearly you know more than Limit Max and his group of world first raiders that actually cleared the savage content. They are noobs compared to you in your infinite genius because you have a friend that played FF14.

Yes, I liked having long term goals from playing casual content. It was nice during the years I didn't have time to raid. What is so hard to understand about this and who shit in your oatmeal so hard that it makes you so upset at the idea that someone wants to do different content from you?

No one mentioned Limit, and you wanna go there, ye, they went in and cleaved down the joke difficulty game without even checking, they wiped a few times and things died, because its a joke, imagine if that game had PTR or Journal "WORLD FIRST FIRST TRY SAVAGE".

And you misunderstand, you can have whatever fun you think you are having in the game, just dont pretend you know what you are talking about when you post, cause you clearly dont.

Your lovable badge gear was there for me to get my cloak or bracers from the unlucky raid drops, but somehow you think, because there were 3 different currencies and 3 different badge systems that you could farm in 16 months to be 40 item levels behind relevant item level, thats somehow was targeted for your type of player.

Its so cute you think that way.

[NineSpine]

No one mentioned Limit, and you wanna go there, ye, they went in and cleaved down the joke difficulty game without even checking, they wiped a few times and things died, because its a joke, imagine if that game had PTR or Journal "WORLD FIRST FIRST TRY SAVAGE".

And you misunderstand, you can have whatever fun you think you are having in the game, just dont pretend you know what you are talking about when you post, cause you clearly dont.

Your lovable badge gear was there for me to get my cloak or bracers from the unlucky raid drops, but somehow you think, because there were 3 different currencies and 3 different badge systems that you could farm in 16 months to be 40 item levels behind relevant item level, thats somehow was targeted for your type of player.

Its so cute you think that way.

It’s amazing that you have such a hilariously overinflated ego from a video game with talking cow ladies in it. Why does it get so under your skin that someone is not jealous of you and doesn’t care what gear you have, and just wants to do their own thing?

The badge gear was targeted as catch up and for people that didn’t want to raid. Do you honestly think that blizzard accidentally made badge gear appealing to non-raiders? Like it was some mistake, some fluke of the system?

Those guys didn’t just cleave down every fight, tons of them took significant amounts of time. You are acting like a clown that can’t cope with reality.

[potis]

It’s amazing that you have such a hilariously overinflated ego from a video game with talking cow ladies in it. Why does it get so under your skin that someone is not jealous of you and doesn’t care what gear you have, and just wants to do their own thing?

The badge gear was targeted as catch up and for people that didn’t want to raid. Do you honestly think that blizzard accidentally made badge gear appealing to non-raiders? Like it was some mistake, some fluke of the system?

Those guys didn’t just cleave down every fight, tons of them took significant amounts of time. You are acting like a clown that can’t cope with reality.

And again, the same thing, for the 200th time the last few years, no one mentions what they do or what gear they have, and you repeat the same shit, over and over, i get it, you have been playing for over 10 years and never actually managed to do anything in WoW, so the game must finally lower itself to your level because you tried, gave it your pathetic best and failed, thats why you always mention, ego this and ego that, dear god, no one cares about the pixels.

You are so exhausting, stop trying to defend yourself and your own pathetic game experience, you are the reason the game is how it is, cause you cant play it properly, and you complain about everything, always and always.

Badge gear was there to fill up unlucky drops, you think it was there for you because that was all you could possibly do, collect some irrelevant dumb currency for 2 years, to get the same gear the proper players got in 2 weeks, and somehow you think thats "ok", i really pity you.

And they did cleave down every fight, you are comparing their 15 years experience in WoW with their 1 month experience in your joke difficulty game.

[NineSpine]

And again, the same thing, for the 200th time the last few years, no one mentions what they do or what gear they have, and you repeat the same shit, over and over, i get it, you have been playing for over 10 years and never actually managed to do anything in WoW, so the game must finally lower itself to your level because you tried, gave it your pathetic best and failed, thats why you always mention, ego this and ego that, dear god, no one cares about the pixels.

You are so exhausting, stop trying to defend yourself and your own pathetic game experience, you are the reason the game is how it is, cause you cant play it properly, and you complain about everything, always and always.

Badge gear was there to fill up unlucky drops, you think it was there for you because that was all you could possibly do, collect some irrelevant dumb currency for 2 years, to get the same gear the proper players got in 2 weeks, and somehow you think thats "ok", i really pity you.

And they did cleave down every fight, you are comparing their 15 years experience in WoW with their 1 month experience in your joke difficulty game.

“The proper players”. Nobody is impressed by you. The ego makes you look like a child, not like a confident adult. The fact that it bothers you so much that nobody is jealous of you is a sign of immaturity, not accomplishment.

Badge gear was both for catch up and for non-raiders. The fact that you have to deny this to protect your weird ego trip is silly.

Why did some of the fights take them 6 hours if it’s such a joke? Why do THEY disagree with you on the difficulty level of the game?

[potis]

“The proper players”. Nobody is impressed by you. The ego makes you look like a child, not like a confident adult. The fact that it bothers you so much that nobody is jealous of you is a sign of immaturity, not accomplishment.

Badge gear was both for catch up and for non-raiders. The fact that you have to deny this to protect your weird ego trip is silly.

Why did some of the fights take them 6 hours if it’s such a joke? Why do THEY disagree with you on the difficulty level of the game?

And you literally repeat the same thing, haha, insane.

Whatever floats your boat i guess, you do not have the game knowledge to hold a proper discussion, you keep defending yourself into trying to reflect i am the problem because you are out of your depth.

I will say it one last time in the dumbest way possible, maybe then you can understand it.

Your pathetic gaming experience, does not reflect the actual game, therefor you are not "allowed" to have an opinion about the game, you do not understand the game enough to talk about it, end of story.

Just throw your money next expansion and the next after that, and pretend you dont on here so you will feel happy.

Now let me know for the 200th time about my ego, so you can feel better about the money you spend.

[NineSpine]

And you literally repeat the same thing, haha, insane.

Whatever floats your boat i guess, you do not have the game knowledge to hold a proper discussion, you keep defending yourself into trying to reflect i am the problem because you are out of your depth.

I will say it one last time in the dumbest way possible, maybe then you can understand it.

Your pathetic gaming experience, does not reflect the actual game, therefor you are not "allowed" to have an opinion about the game, you do not understand the game enough to talk about it, end of story.

Just throw your money next expansion and the next after that, and pretend you dont on here so you will feel happy.

Now let me know for the 200th time about my ego, so you can feel better about the money you spend.

I appreciate that you are out of arguments and have nothing but insults left. Can you tell me more about how you know more about wow and ff14 than limit max because you know a guy that played ff14?

[chiddie]

The only thing I don’t get is why people that don’t do the three main mandatory competitive end game activities have to be labeled as pathetic.

Not doing them has often nothing to do with skill.

[NineSpine]

The only thing I don’t get is why people that don’t do the three main mandatory competitive end game activities have to be labeled as pathetic.

Not doing them has often nothing to do with skill.

It’s what insecure people think confident people sound like, but also wow encourages this kind of toxic weirdness. They don’t even realize how sad they look.

I’ve done the cutting edge thing at different points in wow, I’ve done it in ff14, and I still do it in destiny 2. Only in wow do you get this sort of thing.

[Relapses]

It’s what insecure people think confident people sound like, but also wow encourages this kind of toxic weirdness. They don’t even realize how sad they look.

I’ve done the cutting edge thing at different points in wow, I’ve done it in ff14, and I still do it in destiny 2. Only in wow do you get this sort of thing.

Look, I'll give you that different strokes for different folks but this whole takedown you're having with @potis is eerily reminiscent of the back-and-forths we used to have over in the Classic subforum. You are, if anything, at least consistent with your opinions. But I simply don't see the point in painting FFXIV as a superior MMO because its skillcap has a ceiling a bit lower than WoW's. Like I've said, I'd just prefer each game stay in its own lane and focus on the stuff that they do best. For FFXIV, that's story (that builds into raiding); for WoW, it's stuff like M+ and high-end large group raiding (that's mostly story agnostic).

[NineSpine]

Look, I'll give you that different strokes for different folks but this whole takedown you're having with @potis is eerily reminiscent of the back-and-forths we used to have over in the Classic subforum. You are, if anything, at least consistent with your opinions. But I simply don't see the point in painting FFXIV as a superior MMO because its skillcap has a ceiling a bit lower than WoW's. Like I've said, I'd just prefer each game stay in its own lane and focus on the stuff that they do best. For FFXIV, that's story (that builds into raiding); for WoW, it's stuff like M+ and high-end large group raiding (that's mostly story agnostic).

I don’t actually disagree with you entirely. I don’t think ff14 is objectively superior. But I do think there are lessons to be learned by wow, and it’s interesting that this is so controversial when blizzards success is largely predicated on refining to a beautiful polish what others have done before.

Wow could never work with the story the way ff14 does. A lot is incompatible just like I don’t think ff14 could do large group raids at high difficulties the way wow does.

However, ff14 is onto something with the general model of their endgame compared to wow. The flatter gear and difficulty levels model, with content that is evergreen and systems that are more isolated and less mandatory just plain works better for everyone.

The big flaming red flag of the problem with wows model, imo, is that the difficulty overlap for raids between modes is so high. In any given tier, the second half of a difficulty and the first half of the next difficulty are extremely close if not the same. That’s just silly, and it would be less of an issue if it didn’t cause unnecessary ilvl inflation.

There is absolutely no need for four difficulty modes. Two is fine, and the last two raid bosses in the harder difficulty should have ulduar-like super-difficulty toggles. LFR and normal is a silly distinction. LFR is not fun for almost anyone. We can see in FF14 that this works. Normal raids in FF14 are roughly normal wow difficulty when they are current, and people queue for them and it works fine because ff14 doesn’t need to rely on this inflated gear ladder to separate difficulties.