Covenant Abilities... why didn't they just...

[Chipped coin]

That's... not how math works, 50% is not a majority, let alone a "massive" one. You are also desperately trying to goal post shift from the original claim, which was that it was a vocal minority who were up in arms about being forced into a meta choice, not that people who pick the meta are a minority.

50% out of 4 choices is a pretty massive majority... that is how math works.

[huth]

I don't think rp mattered looking at how the classes ended up. People picked the best one and you didn't see any one moving around till balance changes.

Think what you want, but it did. Some Druid specs had well over 90% Night Fae in 9.0, which is far more than would happen based on "best Covenant" alone.
They're still by far the largest fraction, even though the other Covenants have gotten closer or even eclipsed them in power. That can't be explained by your view.

[Villager720]

Blizzard wanted to try adding rpg elementals into the game and see how it would play out likely to inform rather they should try and keep adding more rpg elements back into wow in the future.

They likely thought people would pick fun over min maxing as tons of people say that’s what they want but In reality people just chase numbers.

Am I crazy or couldn't the roleplay have been handled with just the unique stories, weapons, armor, mounts, and hub? Why did RPG necessitate power constraints for the color Covenant you chose?
"I threw in my lot with these guys so now I live with them and go on adventures with them and dress like them - but it also handicaps my performance in endgame because without hamstringing my performance, its not 'RP'".

Let's not forget we've also already got things like talents, specs, race, faction, gear, enchants, etc to choose from for RPG elements. So why lock/split up the new abilities/power for players behind really steep grinds in the name of something that we already had in spades?

There was no reason to embed the borrowed power systems in the Covenants.
They offered plenty of meaningful trade offs as is (before they made everything useable across all characters thus completing shattering any "MEANINGFUL RPG CHOICES") by restricting their stories and aesthetics.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Am I crazy or couldn't the roleplay have been handled with just the unique stories, weapons, armor, mounts, and hub? Why did RPG necessitate power constraints for the color Covenant you chose?

Let's not also forget we've got things like talents, race, faction, gear, enchants, etc to choose from for RPG elements. So why lock/split up the new abilities/power for players behind really steep grinds in the name of something that we already had in spades?

it's not just roleplay one of the core part's of rpg's is making choices and unlocking new character power at the expense of other options is a really standard Rpg element look at dragon age or Kotr for example.

races factions talent's ect don't really give you that in any way and while they could do it with gear enchants ect that would just put us in the same boat where you would have really impactful things locked behind convents just not an extra ability.

[Argorwal]

The player base is/was too embedded in the spreadsheet/raidbots methods of decision making on how to play a character in an RPG for this type of power choice.

It’s a shame Blizzard couldn’t admit that to themselves until 9.1.5.

[saixilein]

Covenants were fine when they launched. I liked and support the idea. They were just bad balanced and should be disabled in rated pvp. Its fine that you cant be best in single and multitarget, Cat be the perfect healer, dps and tank at the same time.


But people these days just play for being bis, sadly

[Okacz]

I mean most classes had 90% + of their population as the same covenants it's time to stop calling them a minority..

A loud minority cried "we want 90s era text rps" blizzard paid the price for ignoring the majority of its playerbase

Don't blame playerbase for shitty design. It's like asking for more salt in restaurant and the chef dumping a pound of sodium sulfide into your soup. Sure, it's not really what you wanted, and way too much of it, but you asked for it, right? Not chefs fault!

As far as I remember players asked for meaningful RPG choices, like in for instance SWTOR, where you can really guide your character to certain moral choices and feel like he's a part of the world, not just a vessel for epics. Creating new abilities only to gate them behind a brutal recovery system, punishing those who wanted to experiment/choose the covenant that fit the best is not that.

[BeepBoo]

But people these days just play for being bis, sadly

Who wants to be sub-par for thematic reasons when you have other people relying on you to do something well? People that don't deserve to be in my group or in my squad. You bring your A game, or you stay the fuck home. No one likes to be or carry a burden, and mediocrity is a burden.

[Karamok]

it's not just roleplay one of the core part's of rpg's is making choices and unlocking new character power at the expense of other options is a really standard Rpg element look at dragon age or Kotr for example.

races factions talent's ect don't really give you that in any way and while they could do it with gear enchants ect that would just put us in the same boat where you would have really impactful things locked behind convents just not an extra ability.

The problem is that in a solo RPG your choices don't lead to your character being inferior to other players, in a game where performance matters.

Warcraft is a team game. Any choice that leads you to make an inferior character can have a serious impact on your ability to get a spot in a group. Warcraft is not a charity event. There's no moral obligation for any group leader to choose a lesser geared or specced player over a better alternative. Anyone who think they're entitled to be included in content, regardless of their choices, is clueless about the how the world works.

The developers know this, but they're living in some alternate reality where they think that human nature is suspended and that hundreds of thousands of years of intuition and survival instincts will be upended in favor of RP.

They have some highly delusional dimwits at Blizzard and these sorts of decisions are all the proof that you need.

[Kithelle]

Because people would complain about the lack of covenant identity, laziness on blizzards end for not wanting to create more than 4 spells, etc etc. Can't win either way

Pretty much

All the people saying wow doesn't feel like a rpg anymore, they add rpg elements, and people complain about the rpg elements

[Relapses]

The problem is that in a solo RPG your choices don't lead to your character being inferior to other players, in a game where performance matters.

Warcraft is a team game. Any choice that leads you to make an inferior character can have a serious impact on your ability to get a spot in a group. Warcraft is not a charity event. There's no moral obligation for any group leader to choose a lesser geared or specced player over a better alternative. Anyone who think they're entitled to be included in content, regardless of their choices, is clueless about the how the world works.

The developers know this, but they're living in some alternate reality where they think that human nature is suspended and that hundreds of thousands of years of intuition and survival instincts will be upended in favor of RP.

They have some highly delusional dimwits at Blizzard and these sorts of decisions are all the proof that you need.

Good thing we have smart people like you to tell them they're dummy dums all the time. It'd be a shame if Blizzard developers went more than a second or two without being reminded how monumentally stupid they are.

[rrayy]

I mean most classes had 90% + of their population as the same covenants it's time to stop calling them a minority..

A loud minority cried "we want 90s era text rps" blizzard paid the price for ignoring the majority of its playerbase

98% of that 90% did what the guides told them to do and weren't actually complaining. You are still the minority.

- - - Updated - - -

Who wants to be sub-par for thematic reasons when you have other people relying on you to do something well? People that don't deserve to be in my group or in my squad. You bring your A game, or you stay the fuck home. No one likes to be or carry a burden, and mediocrity is a burden.

You don;t havbe to be at the top of the meters to play the game well. Anyone who claims that anything less than topping the meters is subpar will not get in my group and is elitist.

[Ryzeth]

That's... not how math works, 50% is not a majority, let alone a "massive" one. You are also desperately trying to goal post shift from the original claim, which was that it was a vocal minority who were up in arms about being forced into a meta choice, not that people who pick the meta are a minority.

Uh. If something has any number more than 50% (including 50.00001%) then it is a majority. That is EXACTLY how math works. Hello?

This is especially so if, there's 4 choices, and one still has 50%. Considering at that point you'd only need >25% to have a "majority sway"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The problem is that in a solo RPG your choices don't lead to your character being inferior to other players, in a game where performance matters.

Warcraft is a team game. Any choice that leads you to make an inferior character can have a serious impact on your ability to get a spot in a group. Warcraft is not a charity event. There's no moral obligation for any group leader to choose a lesser geared or specced player over a better alternative. Anyone who think they're entitled to be included in content, regardless of their choices, is clueless about the how the world works.

The developers know this, but they're living in some alternate reality where they think that human nature is suspended and that hundreds of thousands of years of intuition and survival instincts will be upended in favor of RP.

They have some highly delusional dimwits at Blizzard and these sorts of decisions are all the proof that you need.

and this is why I only play with friends, the min max mind set where people try to pretend " hundreds of thousands of years of intuition and survival instincts" is a legit thing when it comes to a fantasy game where you kill dragons seems so tiresome. Id assume those at blizzard agree and wanted to see if they could get away from the mind set, but realistically they never stood a chance.

[Karamok]

and this is why I only play with friends, the min max mind set where people try to pretend " hundreds of thousands of years of intuition and survival instincts" is a legit thing when it comes to a fantasy game where you kill dragons seems so tiresome. Id assume those at blizzard agree and wanted to see if they could get away from the mind set, but realistically they never stood a chance.

The things is, people aren't pretending anything. People are simply being people. No video game is going to suddenly invoke a simultaneous and all-encompassing change in human behavior that will cause them to act in accordance with the developers desires.

I think they often fail as designers by trying to create systems that rely on players behaving to a certain standard when hundreds of years of psychological study shows that a large portion will fall short of that standard. If there are corners to be cut, they will be cut by some. No ifs, ands, or "if players would just behave themselves..." about it.

[darklogrus]

and this is why I only play with friends, the min max mind set where people try to pretend " hundreds of thousands of years of intuition and survival instincts" is a legit thing when it comes to a fantasy game where you kill dragons seems so tiresome. Id assume those at blizzard agree and wanted to see if they could get away from the mind set, but realistically they never stood a chance.

Im not buying that you and any of your friends play with the min/max or "optimal" mindset.

[Gestopft]

Anyone wonder why they didn't just give us another talent row, hell even cut the worst of the 4, so it's just 3 new abilities per class

I'm actually really hoping they do this for next expansion. Every class gets a new talent row with 3 of the covenant abilities.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Im not buying that you and any of your friends play with the min/max or "optimal" mindset.

I don't, about half of my friends don't, the one's that do don't expect others to. people who push for such things I tend to avoid as in my experience they are making up for there lack of gameplay ability but trying to get all other factors to be optimal.

[huth]

Uh. If something has any number more than 50% (including 50.00001%) then it is a majority. That is EXACTLY how math works. Hello?

This is especially so if, there's 4 choices, and one still has 50%. Considering at that point you'd only need >25% to have a "majority sway"

No, you'd still need >50%. A majority always has to be more than half (i.e. no other individual group could possibly be bigger; exactly half is not a majority). A plurality is simply the largest group.

[darklogrus]

I don't, about half of my friends don't, the one's that do don't expect others to. people who push for such things I tend to avoid as in my experience they are making up for there lack of gameplay ability but trying to get all other factors to be optimal.

Link the Armory, because Im still not buying it..