Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Slant]

Oh, it's a good thing to go to where people are getting information from and all. It's just the Absolute State of Things where people are rushing to social media platforms to hear about the Russian invasion of Ukraine from a beauty guru while she's doing her latest makeup tips, or hear analysis of events from workout bro as he's doing his daily workout video.

I just hate that it's a thing period.

Social Media? That's your problem. You saying shit like that is the start of it all.

Social Media is never a good place to get information from unless it's an imminent or current nature disaster and you're in dire need of a shelter. Anything else has to be treated as bullshit.

Think of social media as a networked emergency broadcasting system. Not as a news source. Unless you want to treat gossip as "news".

[Breccia]

Zelensky thinks Putin will come to the table soon.

Why?

The Pentagon has estimated that 4,000 Russian troops have been killed as the Russian invasion of Ukraine enters its third week.

By comparison, 2,461 U.S. troops died in the war in Afghanistan over 20 years, the Pentagon noted.

Zelensky said last week that he believed that 6,000 Russians had died during the invasion.

[Slant]

No no! Making up words is a very American thing to do.*shrugs*
Joking aside, it's all about being understood...and I'm getting rather anal about this aren't I...

It's not a joke. You're spot on. Americans have left logical rhetoric and have entered the realm of "emotional talk" a decade or so ago. Buzzwords designed to trigger an emotion reign the conversation instead of the literal meaning of words.

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BlackRock just lost $17 billion due to its Russian exposure. That’s just the tip of the iceberg, as Western banks are owed $121 billion by Russian entities

La de da.

Oil producers in the Middle East are worried that high prices will push more people to buy EVs, Iraqi oil minister says

I said it before. This is a balancing game. Push the price too far, and they ended up losing customers permanently.

U.S. drillers add oil and gas rigs for ninth time in 10 weeks -Baker Hughes

These guys obviously felt the same way. There is no short-term fix for the oil and gas price volatility. However, not only in the US, but global production is increasing. The US producers think that within a year they could increase oil and gas production to compensate for the losses from Russia oil & gas.

Too late, though. Europe is on the move. It'll take a decade or two, but this trend is irreversible. Whatever they do, they can only slow it down. But they can't change the direction things are going in Europe. We're discovering how nice it is to have clean air, ride a bike on nice roads, save a huge amount of gas and omg, don't even get started on the maintenance and garages fucking up your repair jobs. Insurance and all the hassle... Once I realised I'm in the city faster with a bike than with car or public transport and my only investment is... er, becoming healthier and fitter? Yeah, that's a no brainer.

It's amusing that "bicycle fitness" is a thing in the US now. I do that to get to work lmao.

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I think it is possible the west is more appealing to Russians right now.

Doubt, we're not macho enough.

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So killing civilians is rational? You agree that killing innocents is fine, you're a monster.

@Shadowferal This is what I meant... buzzwords designed to trigger an emotion. He doesn't realise what rationality even means, he thinks "irrational" has something to do with a moral good/evil assessment. That's US bois in a nutshell.

Good example, friend. Thanks for supplying it so quickly.

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Gimme one example of a democratically started war ;o

Iraq.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Author...lution_of_2002

Need more?

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I thought there was an implicit (unwritten) agreement that NATO would not try to expand eastward though. Not that it matters because every region has the right to choose what they want for themselves, regardless of any agreements by third parties.

So, here's the thing...

People have got to stop thinking treaties, contracts, agreements or verbal promises last indefinitely. There's a difference between "breaking a promise" and "Dude, it's been 30 years... we're changing the terms now, Democracy rules!" People and generations must always be allowed to choose their own path and reevaluate decisions from previous generations. Also, you have to look at the nuances.

NATO not expanding to the East is one thing. Countries in the East more or less begging to be let into NATO is another. What's NATO supposed to do? Refuse them? Why? It's not like NATO is actively campaigning in the East. More like Russia is driving everyone into the West.

And that's Putin's fallacy. If he stopped being a dick, nobody would care about NATO half as much. Alas, since he's hellbent on maintaining the reputation of Russia being a dick nation, that's his problem. Not NATO's.

[Daymanmb]

Americans have left logical rhetoric and have entered the realm of "emotional talk" a decade or so ago.

When your president wears a tan suit, what option is really left?

[Slant]

When your president wears a tan suit, what option is really left?

You let your President dictate how you use language? Don't know about you, but I usually try to be a better person than your average politician.

[Mihalik]

"The Kremlin" is the closest thing we have, truthfully, which is why I keep using it and "Putinistas" to try and divorce the shitfuckery from your average Russian.

Here's my problem tho.

At one point or another we also have to acknowledge that for various complicated historical, cultural and political reasons authoritarian governments do in fact more often that not rule by popular consent.

While the Russian people are Vladimir Putin's first victims, there is a degree of collective guilt going around. The enabling and empowerment of a strongman, the unwavering popular support through the "good years" which allowed him to dismantle any possible checks on his rule etc.

Russia as a nation is not collectively guilt free.

The majority of the Russian population continues to very much support Putin and the Kremlin institutions that he created.

There's a bit of optical bias in the West. We see more internal dissent because what we see is the educated, tech saavy, globally connected multilingual urban middle class, and while there's clearly a break between them and the Kremlin, they are actually a relatively small percentage of the population.

And for every anti-war Russian there are a couple of Shalckers out there.

Of course this dissent would have eventually spread, which is why we are seeing the sweeping communications clamp down, but I'm willing to wager the majority of the Russian population is still very much in the Kremlin's camp.

Furthermore there is a clear rally around the flag effect happening inside Russia. The risk for Putin there is that if he loses and the population has to suffer and has nothing to take pride in, just the shame of defeat, that nationalist fervor might just turn into nationalist dissenting fervor where they personally end up blaming him and his cronies for the humiliations inflicted on "The Motherland".

My point is, while undoubtedly most individual Russians aren't per say directly to blame for this...their hands aren't exactly clean either.

And absolutely the same goes for Americans and the blood of Iraqis, Afghanis etc. The "enhanced interrogations" the xenophobia and on and on, nobody is truly guilt free, and we ought to hold ourselves and in equal measure Russians accountable for enabling our respective mad men and war criminals.

Whenever this ends... Until Russia does some serious national introspection they need to be held accountable.

[Slant]

Here's my problem tho.

At one point or another we also have to acknowledge that for various complicated historical, cultural and political reasons authoritarian governments do in fact more often that not rule by popular consent.

While the Russian people are Vladimir Putin's first victims, there is a degree of collective guilt going around. The enabling and empowerment of a strongman, the unwavering popular support through the "good years" which allowed him to dismantle and possible checks on his rule etc.

Russia as a nation is not collectively guilt free.

The majority of the Russian population continues to very much support Putin and the Kremlin institutions that he created.

There's a bit of optical bias in the West. We see more internal dissent because what we see is the educated, tech saavy, globally connected multilingual urban middle class, and while there's clearly a break between them and the Kremlin, they are actually a relatively small percentage of the population.

Of course this dissent would have eventually spread, which is why we are seeing the sweeping communications clamp down, but I'm willing to wager the majority of the Russian population is still very much in the Kremlin's camp.

Furthermore there is a clear rally around the flag effect happening inside Russia. The risk for Putin there is that if he loses and the population has to suffer and has nothing to take pride in, just the shame of defeat, that nationalist fervor might just turn into nationalist dissenting fervor where they personally end up blaming him and his cronies for the humiliations inflicted on "The Motherland".

My point is, while undoubtedly most individual Russians aren't per say directly to blame for this...their hands aren't exactly clean either.

And absolutely the same goes for Americans and the blood of Iraqis, Afghanis etc. The "enhanced interrogations" the xenophobia and on and on, nobody is truly guilt free, and we ought to hold ourselves and in equal measure Russians accountable for enabling our respective mad men and war criminals.

Whenever this ends... Until Russia does some serious national introspection they need to be held accountable.

I'd like to remind everyone about the collective guilt trip that Germany was sent into. 4 generations later we're pretty happy with ourselves now, but Germany being "too pacifist" and "weak" is a reflection of the people prefering that to being a dick nation again. You're making a whole lot of good points in your post. And Russians do carry some of the responsibility, whether they like it or not.

Doesn't mean they're evil on an individual level, but they certainly are guilty of sticking their heads into the sand and letting things happen "to other people" as long as it doesn't affect them. Which is why I'm absolutely fine with whatever effect these sanctions have. And since I detest social media on the highest degree, let me just say... they'll live.

Which is not something you can say about Ukrainian civilians right now.

[Breccia]

Sony joins Disney, dropping Russia.

[Edge-]

Social Media? That's your problem. You saying shit like that is the start of it all.

Social Media is never a good place to get information from unless it's an imminent or current nature disaster and you're in dire need of a shelter. Anything else has to be treated as bullshit.

Think of social media as a networked emergency broadcasting system. Not as a news source. Unless you want to treat gossip as "news".

It's a garbage place, you're right and I made so clear.

But if that's where people are going, that's where you need to combat the misinformation. You can't force people to read credible news outlets, so you have to deal with the situation you have.

I fuckin hate it, but if that's where enough folks are going to get their information - even if it's literally the worst place they could be going - then that's the place where you combat misinformation.

[CostinR]

Zelensky thinks Putin will come to the table soon.

Why?

I could believe that if Russian casualties get too high that Russia will come to the table.

The problem with that statement is I don't know if Zelensky believes that based on those kind of casualty numbers or if he's drinking the kool-aid offered by his own government...which claims over 12.000 Russians killed. I trust the Pentagon claims. The Ukrainian claims are toilet paper level for me.

@Mihalik You raise an absolutely good point and the Russian people are absolutely deserving of their current fate.

There's a popular view in Eastern Europe, but not merely Eastern Europe, that we are not responsible for the actions of our leaders: Like hell I say.

[jonnysensible]

Here's my problem tho.

At one point or another we also have to acknowledge that for various complicated historical, cultural and political reasons authoritarian governments do in fact more often that not rule by popular consent.

While the Russian people are Vladimir Putin's first victims, there is a degree of collective guilt going around. The enabling and empowerment of a strongman, the unwavering popular support through the "good years" which allowed him to dismantle any possible checks on his rule etc.

Russia as a nation is not collectively guilt free.

The majority of the Russian population continues to very much support Putin and the Kremlin institutions that he created.

There's a bit of optical bias in the West. We see more internal dissent because what we see is the educated, tech saavy, globally connected multilingual urban middle class, and while there's clearly a break between them and the Kremlin, they are actually a relatively small percentage of the population.

And for every anti-war Russian there are a couple of Shalckers out there.

Of course this dissent would have eventually spread, which is why we are seeing the sweeping communications clamp down, but I'm willing to wager the majority of the Russian population is still very much in the Kremlin's camp.

Furthermore there is a clear rally around the flag effect happening inside Russia. The risk for Putin there is that if he loses and the population has to suffer and has nothing to take pride in, just the shame of defeat, that nationalist fervor might just turn into nationalist dissenting fervor where they personally end up blaming him and his cronies for the humiliations inflicted on "The Motherland".

My point is, while undoubtedly most individual Russians aren't per say directly to blame for this...their hands aren't exactly clean either.

And absolutely the same goes for Americans and the blood of Iraqis, Afghanis etc. The "enhanced interrogations" the xenophobia and on and on, nobody is truly guilt free, and we ought to hold ourselves and in equal measure Russians accountable for enabling our respective mad men and war criminals.

Whenever this ends... Until Russia does some serious national introspection they need to be held accountable.

this is obviously nonsense, most people dont vote or give a fuck about politics, they just want to get by.

This is like when a someone says 'fuck texans they deserve it' when some dumb shit republican makes a law and ignores that all these other people who aren't republicans live there.

or even worse some fucking politician says 'we' to refer to the nation when in fact its about 600 people in the country making the decision. Its those people who are the cunts not the millions of others for fuck sake, they have all of the power.

Are the babies guilty too? or do you become unclean aged 18+. The voting unwashed.

fucking liberals man

[Edge-]

or even worse some fucking politician says 'we' to refer to the nation when in fact its about 600 people in the country making the decision. Its those people who are the cunts not the millions of others for fuck sake, they have all of the power.

I don't know why but this reminds me of the "how well do you know black people" sketch where he asked people who black Americans can "rise up and overcome" and everyone had a correct answer except the woman who said "vote".

[CostinR]

this is obviously nonsense, most people dont vote or give a fuck about politics, they just want to get by.

This is like when a someone says 'fuck texans they deserve it' when some dumb shit republican makes a law and ignores that all these other people who aren't republicans live there.

Most people actually do vote. The percentage of the population that actually votes and supported Putin is quite high in Russia, he is genuinely popular ( or was I am sure the sanctions will cut into that ) in Russia. His approval rating when up by quite a lot when he took Crimea.

So bluntly speaking, the Russian people? They are guilty in part of this, sure we shouldn't hold them to the same level as Putin, but they share responsibility, because most of them voted for him!

Also your argument over "dumb Texans" etc. This is nowhere near that level: This is a great power waging a war of conquest against it's neighbor sparking one of the largest refugee crisis in modern history that likely will eclipse the Syrian refugee crisis. I mean in TWO weeks we have over 2 million refugees!

Things that Texas does is not at all in the same ballpark.

[Crispin]

I thought there was an implicit (unwritten) agreement that NATO would not try to expand eastward though. Not that it matters because every region has the right to choose what they want for themselves, regardless of any agreements by third parties.

There’ a written agreement, that Russia would guarantee Ukraines security in the budapest memorandum.

Russia whining because they say someones once said NATO would not expand… which is fucking useless, considering that all they do is lie.

[YUPPIE]

I’d take anything Zelensky takes with a grain of salt. Like I know people are understandably pouring sympathy towards his plight, but they conveniently forget or don’t know what he was like before this war.

Besides that, he seems to be becoming more unhinged or vengeful by the day. It makes sense considering his circumstances, though. Damn Biden insistent on not enforcing a no flight zone.

[Deus Mortis]

I’d take anything Zelensky takes with a grain of salt. Like I know people are understandably pouring sympathy towards his plight, but they conveniently forget or don’t know what he was like before this war.

Besides that, he seems to be becoming more unhinged or vengeful by the day. It makes sense considering his circumstances, though. Damn Biden insistent on not enforcing a no flight zone.

Yeah sorry you're not getting your WW3 dream quite yet.

[YUPPIE]

Yeah sorry you're not getting your WW3 dream quite yet.

if Putin walked into America and threw the MAD card, then demanded some White House representatives to clean his boots, would they do it so he doesn't launch nukes? Hypothetical scenario on how he can get away with anything.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Gimme one example of a democratically started war ;o

All the wars waged by England and France's 3rd Republic during the Colonial Rush of late 19th and early to mid 20th Century.

And since we've been gone further back in time, there's of course the 3rd Punic War, which was democratically sold as an anihilation war with perhaps one of the oldest political slogan to have survived : Delenda Est Carthago

[Ettan]

Damn Biden insistent on not enforcing a no flight zone.

And Biden is not alone on that.
It would be like a war decleration on russia.
To enforce it we would have to shoot down russian planes.
One could hope that then would be limited to a convential war between nato and russia, but hope is all you are clinging on to there.

I dont trust Putin or ourselves to keep to that, on one side the rat is in a corner on the other our advantage is large.
And if we risk all, our leaders would feel hard pressed to use that advantage (even at huge loss to ourselves).
So It could very quickly turn our next winter into a nuclear winter.
And for that we are obviously not quite ready, yet.

But in time we could be ready for that, not nuclear war but a time when the russian threat is no longer present.
The technological gap is already vast, and as known in limited scale concepts of countermeashures have been tested and proven long ago.
With an east- west skism now forming, the technological gap will widen exponentially.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if in the future we improve on such countermeashures so much so that the russian balistic threat is no longer a viable threat to us, or atleast turns into a very minor one; irregardless of the number of warheads.

That said I could still see a no fly zone happening now in the short term; but it would take ALOT to risk nuclear war (like alot, alot alot, ~ if dnipro / khiev gets turned into something worse than stalingrad over the next few months). And tbh if it did turn into a stalingrad I am certain putin would welcome a get out of jail free card.
So maybe then, hopefully it doesnt get that bad.

[postman1782]

I’d take anything Zelensky takes with a grain of salt. Like I know people are understandably pouring sympathy towards his plight, but they conveniently forget or don’t know what he was like before this war.

Besides that, he seems to be becoming more unhinged or vengeful by the day. It makes sense considering his circumstances, though. Damn Biden insistent on not enforcing a no flight zone.

Are you enjoying intentionally pushing Russian propaganda?