Mage Tower is a great example…

[Argorwal]

…of why players who want a minimal/no gear gap between raid difficulties should never be listened to.

A lot of people like to think if things were more equalized they would do better, but that isn’t the case at all.

[Lucetia]

…of why players who want a minimal/no gear gap between raid difficulties should never be listened to.

A lot of people like to think if things were more equalized they would do better, but that isn’t the case at all.

The problem is that it is not as easy as you make it out to be.

For example with mage tower there is still a lot of tuning that will likely happen.

In other content you have class imbalances, tuning issues, scaling problems, etc. There are just too many factors that could play into it that doesn't make it a clear cut of "Well you really suck when you thought you were great" type idea.

[Zantos]

No, its not. Mage tower suffers from 1 issue, and 1 issue alone. It is Highly imbalanced in terms of difficulty depending on your class + tool kit. Some classes have a harder time while others don't. For example, the Melee challenge is hard for any melee that needs tiime to ramp up, where as any that have bleeds or heavy aoe will shine. It shows that not all classes are created equal and that they excel in different aspects.

Now, if you want a challenge that Shows what you think, green fire for warlock when it was released. It actually took skill. Knowing your class and its functions. Even cds that don't often get utilized got used there. All because it was tuned for 1 specific class and their tool kits. So people who thought they were good suddenly found out that they were not good in the slightest.

[Army Dreamer]

Mage Tower is a great example…

of the waste of time.

[rayvio]

mage tower would have been much better if they'd taken the time to customise them based on the class/spec being played. didn't have to be major changes like having an entirely different scenario (that would have been great but not a realistic expectation), just tune the mobs according to the strengths and weaknesses of whichever specific class/spec it's aimed at
and if it's designed in such a way that players learn from what they've done wrong and improve, so much the better

but much like proving grounds they dropped the ball and some classes face rolled it while others really struggled and it had little to do with the players skill and much more to do with the lack of tuning
they did it a little better in torghast since there are actually some anima powers customised for different specs, I haven't tried it as many class/specs yet but so far the tuning seems good. if only it wasn't so repetitive, tedious and lacking in rewards...

[Argorwal]

No, its not. Mage tower suffers from 1 issue, and 1 issue alone. It is Highly imbalanced in terms of difficulty depending on your class + tool kit. Some classes have a harder time while others don't. For example, the Melee challenge is hard for any melee that needs tiime to ramp up, where as any that have bleeds or heavy aoe will shine. It shows that not all classes are created equal and that they excel in different aspects.

Now, if you want a challenge that Shows what you think, green fire for warlock when it was released. It actually took skill. Knowing your class and its functions. Even cds that don't often get utilized got used there. All because it was tuned for 1 specific class and their tool kits. So people who thought they were good suddenly found out that they were not good in the slightest.

All of the encounters have been cleared.

Some are harder than others of course (just like it was in Legion), but clearly they can be done with the available gear.

And with no method of “gearing up” due to timewalking the challenge is very binary and awful for most of the player base.

Exactly the reason why minimal/no gear gaps between raids is a terrible idea.

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mage tower would have been much better if they'd taken the time to customise them based on the class/spec being played. didn't have to be major changes like having an entirely different scenario (that would have been great but not a realistic expectation), just tune the mobs according to the strengths and weaknesses of whichever specific class/spec it's aimed at
and if it's designed in such a way that players learn from what they've done wrong and improve, so much the better

but much like proving grounds they dropped the ball and some classes face rolled it while others really struggled and it had little to do with the players skill and much more to do with the lack of tuning
they did it a little better in torghast since there are actually some anima powers customised for different specs, I haven't tried it as many class/specs yet but so far the tuning seems good. if only it wasn't so repetitive, tedious and lacking in rewards...

If it doesn’t have to do with player skill then why have some people been able to clear it while others can’t?

[Djuntas]

Tank challenge defiantly seems tuned high ^^ Got my ass kicked. I hear people say farming better trinkets, or some BFA shit from raids makes it easier but yeah...

I saw my streamer boi psybearslat struggling on tank, thats enough for me to know its hard when even top mythic+ feral druid struggle and not just kill it quickly

But give it some time, guides will come out, and those who care will get it...Through I must say the DPS one with the imps and stuff seemt easier for ranged DPS...idk.

[Bigbazz]

When the original Mage tower released in Legion there were a lot of threads with people claiming it was impossible, most players (even among skilled players) didn't do any of the challenges until later in the expansion with massively increased player power. No idea what these re-release challenges are like since I no longer have a sub, but if they are remotely as hard as the originals then only the best players in the game will beat it.

I don't really understand the rehashing of the mage tower though, what's the point?

[Gaidax]

That's some logic leap there.

But hey, picking some ingame thing and somehow spinning out a story that fits your shtick is MMO-C standard shitposting procedure.

[Theangryone]

Mage tower was/is tuned for you class the way is was in Legion with your Artifact weapons. This a great example of what happens when you tinker with class abilities and borrowed power every expansion. Strip away the use of almost all old legendaries, artifact weapons, and strip the classes of their covenant abilities and they play very different in terms of player power

[Tojara]

The mage towers problem is that it happens only a few times a year and that's it.

It doesn't matter if it's hard nor does it matter that one spec or class has an easier time with it. The reward is exclusive to that particular role, so does it matter?

Angst and QQ is going to exist regardless, but I'd argue that there would be much less of it if people could do it whenever they want instead of what, 3 weeks out of a year total? If it was just available all of the time I doubt there would be nearly as much 'uproar' as there apparently is.

This feature is a great feature and in an ideal world it should maintain it's difficulty. The problem is Blizzard wants to gate it for whatever reason instead of making content that is actually decent, available at all times. As a whole Blizzard could do a hell of a lot better with their TW rewards IMO.

[Valysar]

Doing the mage tower with level 47 gameplay is pretty fun.

/s

[Argorwal]

The mage towers problem is that it happens only a few times a year and that's it.

It doesn't matter if it's hard nor does it matter that one spec or class has an easier time with it. The reward is exclusive to that particular role, so does it matter?

Angst and QQ is going to exist regardless, but I'd argue that there would be much less of it if people could do it whenever they want instead of what, 3 weeks out of a year total? If it was just available all of the time I doubt there would be nearly as much 'uproar' as there apparently is.

This feature is a great feature and in an ideal world it should maintain it's difficulty. The problem is Blizzard wants to gate it for whatever reason instead of making content that is actually decent, available at all times. As a whole Blizzard could do a hell of a lot better with their TW rewards IMO.

Fully agreed. The mage tower should either always be up, or at the least up every single timewalking not just Legion TW.

[klaps_05]

When the original Mage tower was released, the devs themselves acknowledged its tuned for artifacts and ToS gear. That plus being available only once per month means its just a novelty so the goal should be that majority of people who try it should finish it within just a few tries.

Dont forget the 2 week availability is also only now, the next cycle it will be available for only ONE week per 4 months instead of 2. As soon as the 2 weeks are up this time, there will be a million posts how mage tower is FOMO and then the mage tower will be covered by stink instead of being celebrated.

[Djuntas]

The mage towers problem is that it happens only a few times a year and that's it.

It doesn't matter if it's hard nor does it matter that one spec or class has an easier time with it. The reward is exclusive to that particular role, so does it matter?

Angst and QQ is going to exist regardless, but I'd argue that there would be much less of it if people could do it whenever they want instead of what, 3 weeks out of a year total? If it was just available all of the time I doubt there would be nearly as much 'uproar' as there apparently is.

This feature is a great feature and in an ideal world it should maintain it's difficulty. The problem is Blizzard wants to gate it for whatever reason instead of making content that is actually decent, available at all times. As a whole Blizzard could do a hell of a lot better with their TW rewards IMO.

This I agree with. Stop gating content. Let stuff be available - Why is time walking not even up every week or whatever.

[Argorwal]

That's some logic leap there.

But hey, picking some ingame thing and somehow spinning out a story that fits your shtick is MMO-C standard shitposting procedure.

Hard scaled content being bad for the vast majority because they need the soft nerf of gear progression is pretty clear and dry when we have the first and only actually hard and scaled challenge.

This is what every raid would turn into when people ask for no/minimal gear gaps between raid difficulties.

A very binary challenge that sucks for most players. Unless they tune it to be a joke.

[TickTickTick]

Mage Tower is a great example...

of specs being balanced around the borrowed power being a super bad idea. Without the legendaries / covenants / soulbinds some specs are barebones boring or straight up unplayable garbage. And it's not a positive argument behind the borrowed powers, it just shows how much Blizzard ruined the base of the specs to fit the borrowed powers in.

A reminder that the Mage Tower in Legion allowed you to use your artifact weapon and legendary item. Now some specs just feel incomplete.

[Lolites]

And with no method of “gearing up” due to timewalking the challenge is very binary and awful for most of the player base.

you are joking right?
there very much IS method of gearing up, actualy there are whole guides about best gear for it...

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If it doesn’t have to do with player skill then why have some people been able to clear it while others can’t?

some people went for weeks to farm the "bis" items for it maybe while some didnt? ofc if we speak of the same spec

also how the hell does that show people wouldnt do better with "equalised" gear, it shows some people have higher skill, there never was any doubt about it, doesnt mean the gear makes no difference...

[Argorwal]

you are joking right?
there very much IS method of gearing up, actualy there are whole guides about best gear for it...

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some people went for weeks to farm the "bis" items for it maybe while some didnt? ofc if we speak of the same spec

There is some scaling gaming, but it’s not even close to the power gain raid tiers give

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of specs being balanced around the borrowed power being a super bad idea. Without the legendaries / covenants / soulbinds some specs are barebones boring or straight up unplayable garbage. And it's not a positive argument behind the borrowed powers, it just shows how much Blizzard ruined the base of the specs to fit the borrowed powers in.

A reminder that the Mage Tower in Legion allowed you to use your artifact weapon and legendary item. Now some specs just feel incomplete.

Most of the “key” mage tower legendaries are shields and self healing which have fuck all to do with how a class plays.

[Lucetia]

All of the encounters have been cleared.

Just because something is "cleared" doesn't mean much. For all we know they could've been doing use exploits or unintended methods. Also, where are you seeing people have cleared it? I feel like if they were all cleared someone would have the mount and it'd be in the news (at least wowhead since they spam every little thing), but I haven't seen anything.

Some are harder than others of course (just like it was in Legion), but clearly they can be done with the available gear.

See point above. Also just because it has only been completed by < 5% of the player base doesn't mean much and doesn't prove your point because the reasons I posted earlier in the thread. Also, back in Legion we had way more tools available that are now no longer available such as Artifact Power, the potion/bandage in Agatha, legendaries, etc. So you can't say "just like it was in Legion".

And with no method of “gearing up” due to timewalking the challenge is very binary and awful for most of the player base.

Overall the mage tower is an example of "How people will use it to push their agenda's" without analyzing all the details and then making a more detailed and accurate answer over it.

This I agree with. Stop gating content. Let stuff be available - Why is time walking not even up every week or whatever.

I still think every single week should be a TW + 1 other event.

So for instance:

TBC TW + Pet Battle Week
Wrath TW + Battleground Week
Cata TW + World Quest Bonus Week
MoP TW + Shadowlands Dungeon Event
WoD TW + Arena Skirmish Event
Legion TW + Something New

Then next cycle could be:

TBC TW + Battleground Week
etc.