Is lore completely destroyed?

[Kralljin]

humm, what? everyone knew he was racist before this and they still were fine with him.

Lordaeron fell apart and Garithos gained his position by simply surviving, i don't think they had solid information on him because Lordaeron was clusterfuck at this point, hence the dwarves sending them aid because they seemingly believed that Lordaeron was not completely lost.

It is said the alliance were in not good terms with the elves because the events of TFT, they did not trust then, therefore send spies

...the blood elves aided the night elves at every point they interacted, even Tyrande (you know, who had a slight xenophobic streak) said that they should help them.

So please, show me where this has been said.

nagas, ilidan and later the undead with sylvanas.

By your own source, they only sided with the Horde after failed negotiations with the Alliance, hence they can't be mad at them for looking for alternatives.

And the Nightelf Leadership departed with Illidan on good terms, as long as Illidan wouldn't threaten the Night elves, they would leave him alone as well.

[Syegfryed]

Lordaeron fell apart and Garithos gained his position by simply surviving, i don't think they had solid information on him because Lordaeron was clusterfuck at this point, hence the dwarves sending them aid because they seemingly believed that Lordaeron was not completely lost.

they send him aid because he was the defacto leader, yeah, he simple survived, but he was the last high ranking standing and was recovering the place.

...the blood elves aided the night elves at every point they interacted, even Tyrande (you know, who had a slight xenophobic streak) said that they should help them.

So please, where me this has been said.

..and the horde help the night elves in hyjal, Cenarius forgave the orcs, but that didn't stop the night elves from kiling orcs in ashenvale and trying to drive then out, elves are hypocrites, who would knew.

Night elves were sided with the alliance now, they would back up their new allies, not the elves who run way with illidan THE BETRAYER.

By your own source, they only sided with the Horde after failed negotiations with the Alliance, hence they can't be mad at them for looking for alternatives.

hum?

And the Nightelf Leadership departed with Illidan on good terms, as long as Illidan wouldn't threaten the Night elves, they would leave him alone as well.

yeah, fun fact leaders =/= people, just because malfurion and tyrande were fine, by pure personal and biased reasons does not mean every night elf would be fine with, Maiev didn't.

[Stormspark]

Yep, even if the game were fixed and Blizzard became a better company, I would not return to the game unless all of Danuser's retcons were removed and he was replaced as lead narrative designer.

[Kralljin]

..and the horde help the night elves in hyjal, Cenarius forgave the orcs, but that didn't stop the night elves from kiling orcs in ashenvale and trying to drive then out, elves are hypocrites, who would knew.

Orcs still laid claim to Ashenvale even in Vanilla, the blood elves didn't lay claim to any nightelf territory.
I think i am able to spot the difference.

Night elves were sided with the alliance now, they would back up their new allies, not the elves who run way with illidan THE BETRAYER.

Again, why would the Alliance go after the blood elves?
What sort of threat did the blood elves pose to the Alliance?

If this is about Garithos, we're back to square one: The Forsaken killed Garithos, not the Blood elves.

Completely disregarding that the Alliance had no high command at this point, there was no one that could strongarm the Night elves into attacking people they do not want to attack.
Not even mentioning that the one faction that is on the other side of the continent is naturally the worst choice to spearhead such an expedition.

yeah, fun fact leaders =/= people, just because malfurion and tyrande were fine, by pure personal and biased reasons does not mean every night elf would be fine with, Maiev didn't.

Which would make those night elven forces renegades if they went off without any orders from their leaders.
Again, that's something we have no indication off.

Please, can we stick to the actual canon and not your fairytale headcanon?

[Syegfryed]

Orcs still laid claim to Ashenvale even in Vanilla, the blood elves didn't lay claim to any nightelf territory.
I think i am able to spot the difference.

and as allies, why they didn't let then stay there? since the horde help defend the place from the legion? i tell you why, because they were xenophobic dipshits, If their alliance allies send then to spy and saboutage the blood elves, why they would not do it? Night elves had no reason to like blood elves at all, mind you, blood elves were once the highborne of old, who they they exiled, their interaction with tyrande and kael was merely a means to an end, where night elves used then to find illidan.

Again, why would the Alliance go after the blood elves?
What sort of threat did the blood elves pose to the Alliance?

why they would not? again, distrust over the events of TFT, they were never that much close, bad words went down to stormwind, they could not see the big picture, for all they know, the elves rebeled against the alliance, their prince sided with the enemies cause havoc dalaran and flee with a demon to another world.

If this isn't enough to cause a distrust i don't know what it is.

Which would make those night elven forces renegades if they went off without any orders from their leaders.
Again, that's something we have no indication off.

not rly?a s you see, Maiev still hang around

Please, can we stick to the actual canon and not your fairytale headcanon?

pure gold. when the canon is literally alliance sending spies because they distrust the elves, pushing then to the horde.

[Stormwolf64]

They don't need to change everything at once, rebot kalindor and easter kingdoms, they have plenty of resources to do it.

But that go against their law of more profit for less effort.

Especially now when they only have those who suffer a serious case of sunken cost problem or the addicts who'll just never leave. Rest just mehh at WoW now so just make something quick and simple, the ones who're already playing will continue to do so anyway.

[Kralljin]

and as allies, why they didn't let then stay there? since the horde help defend the place from the legion?

Because it's their land?

why they would not?

The Alliance has rarely been a proactive faction and obviously has had more pressing issues than some elves that are emboiled with their own set of issues in their own lands - not even mentioning that any alliance controlled lands were out reach for the blood elves anyway.

they were never that much close, bad words went down to stormwind, they could not see the big picture, for all they know, the elves rebeled against the alliance, their prince sided with the enemies cause havoc dalaran and flee with a demon to another world.

So...why were the night elves involved again?
I remind you: The Alliance couldn't just strongarm the night elves into spearheading an invasion - They were not bound by a central command.
And once again ignoring the fact that night elves obviously had to sail an entire ocean to reach Quel'thalas, they were literally the worst choice for the mission.

If this isn't enough to cause a distrust i don't know what it is.

There is a difference between mistrust and openly launching military actions within their lands.

not rly?a s you see, Maiev still hang around

Taking into account that Maiev also killed Night elves herself and even attacked her own brother, i think it's not unfitting to say that Maiev had a bit of a rebel streak.

Completely disregarding that Malfurion saw her as a lost cause in Warcraft 3 and just let her go, thus effectively abandoning her, rather than taking responsbility for anything she does.

pure gold. when the canon is literally alliance sending spies because they distrust the elves, pushing then to the horde.

I am making nothing up - unlike you.
I am asking what are the reasons for the Alliance to openly attack blood elves within their own lands.
You fail at providing any solid reasons.
You fail to provide sources.
Once you get called on your failure to provide sources, you move the goal posts.
Once those goalposts get exposed as the obvious BS that they are, you move to the next.

This is the cycle of any argument with you, so either fess up solid sources or just stop replying - because else i will.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

There is nothing jarring about him. That's how the game has worked. Threats escalate. If it's jarring to you, you never played the game. There were definitely hints from Legion through BfA anyway.

No, he is; every other "final boss" has been a character that was introduced on a previous expansion, including alt versions. Zovaal has been the only big bad with no introduction before his expansion, and no, allusions don't count as a set up. Kel'thuzad, Kael'thas, The Lich King, Deathwing, Garrosh, Gul'dan, Sargeras, N'zoth: they were all character that were set up as entities before the expansions they became the final boss.

He was never a character before Shadowlands.

[Syegfryed]

Because it's their land?

and what they di with it? they didn't leave there, i think letting then stay in that area was a small anf just reard after they spilling heir blood helping to defend their legion.

Because you know, it was not their land originally either.

The Alliance has rarely been a proactive faction and obviously has had more pressing issues than some elves that are emboiled with their own set of issues in their own lands - not even mentioning that any alliance controlled lands were out reach for the blood elves anyway.

wut? what the alliance most did was pro-active attack the horde since vanilla? like, they literally bombed an entire tauren tribe into extinction? and even before hunting trolls?

you think they would not send spies to figure out why the elves, who had "abandoned" the faction before to sided up with the demon illidan and the naga? consider the alliance have no metagaming knowledge we have and they only ahve the remants of lrodaeron version, who, were with Garithos.

So...why were the night elves involved again?
I remind you: The Alliance couldn't just strongarm the night elves into spearheading an invasion - They were not bound by a central command.

you think the night elves could not send some forces to aid the alliance? thats like the whole point of the alliance? they helping each other with numbers too? hey were not forced to it.

And once again ignoring the fact that night elves obviously had to sail an entire ocean to reach Quel'thalas, they were literally the worst choice for the mission.

I almost forgot that portals exist, and you know, an elf to deal with another elf, seems pretty logical to me, especially when night elves would be the best rogues and do subterfuge missions, they would know more about the old highborne than a warf or a gnome

There is a difference between mistrust and openly launching military actions within their lands.

you mean like the alliance launched a massive militar action against the horde in another continent, wiping out the troll tribes in their way?

that seems like it was precisely what the alliance would do.

Taking into account that Maiev also killed Night elves herself and even attacked her own brother, i think it's not unfitting to say that Maiev had a bit of a rebel streak.

That still does change change the point.

Completely disregarding that Malfurion saw her as a lost cause in Warcraft 3 and just let her go, thus effectively abandoning her, rather than taking responsbility for anything she does.

also the night elves whow ent with her, Mafurion isn't rly the ideal leader.

I am asking what are the reasons for the Alliance to openly attack blood elves within their own lands..

i gave the reasons to you, theya re not the brighest or more well made for the lore, but they are the truth.

if you don't like, thats entirely your problem,

- - - Updated - - -

Especially now when they only have those who suffer a serious case of sunken cost problem or the addicts who'll just never leave. Rest just mehh at WoW now so just make something quick and simple, the ones who're already playing will continue to do so anyway.

they prob already know that no matter what they do they will still have a consistent good amount of profit, they already increased the price of subscription to cover the player loss, so, until something rly fucked up made the addicts leave, then there is no reason for then to put medium effort.

[Super Dickmann]

See, but thats the thing, what happened in TBC was not so BIG, compared to bfa-shadowlands era, yeah they burned the rts characters, but not many knew wc2. They were handled badly, but thigns did made sense.

the only thing Bf did was to add zandalari in the proccess and they fuck then up from what we knew, they even shoved the wakanda movie there, killed Rastkahan and used him as plot device to put his nobody daughter because woman power, just like they did with mayla.

I agree with how they bad handled the blood elves, changing their fantasy to the generic, but they are elves, people who play elves want tolkien shit, thats why people keep screaming and whining for high elves, people would not rly go for then as much fi they were "bad boys".

Like, literally every bfa racial leader is done dirty, that affects me more than if they done cahracters whoa re not from it and would, logically, be villains.

i disagree entirelly, everything done with the characters will not be ignored as long the character live.

what they did with BfA-shadowlands, systematically destroying the horde and their characters like saurfang, Thral baine, is much worse than taking rts characters and making villains, one affect me directly and the ambiance where i play, i don't care if someone else house house is dirty if im going to pass just a few hours there, but my house? nah.

Like, yeah, kill Kargath, but fuck, why did you kill saufang, and before that, ruined his entire story?

There is no rational way to argue to the point that what BFA did with its allied races is somehow a greater breach than what TBC did with the Blood Elves. BFA added the Zandalari trolls to the playable Horde and also immensely fleshed them out in terms of internal characters and culture. It did kill Rastakhan, but not only was he in terms of presence who's sum role in the setting was some throwaway lines and presence in the RPG, but the character who replaced him was built up to replace him and in everything from class attitudes to her stance on the war had the torch passed to her in a way that was reasonable. Rastakhan's arc was shown to us throughout and delivered coherently and consistently as well. The Zandalari being part of the Horde was both worked towards heavily and when that reason elapsed, there was a whole book centering on why they should stay.

Kael'thas wasn't some vague background character, he was the protagonist of the Blood Elf-centric campaign in the RTS and more so than that, he was the only blood elf character in the entire RTS. He was to redefining the generic Tolkien elf to Warcraft's take on them what Thrall was to the orcs. It 'making sense' that he'd go lol-insane off-screen based on factors relating to Kil'jaeden and magic repurposed spaceships that were not present in the RTS and ergo impossible to envision is not comparable to Rastakhan's full character arc we got to see on-screen. Kael'thas did not leave behind a race with more hooks in the narrative than it had proper, but after we'd killed him in a location also impossible to foresee from the RTS out or in line with how he behaved in it, he was replaced by a dude who was a meme for ten years for his total lack of personality and his underused council, in charge of a race who's narrative hooks were cut off. Kael was a far more important character than Rastakhan by an order of magnitude and destroying his character casually and going 'lol, he met some demons that's why he's a raving lunatic now, it's okay' is one of the reasons why TBC is such a steaming pile of shit. Not the least of which because it also happens to the OG Naga in Vashj, to Illidan, to Kargath and so on and so on.

It's an undercurrent of an argument that's always contradictory because it's fundamentally based on a double standard. It's why I said before that I've zero expectation of convincing someone who started with TBC of why it's so wretched. If you began with it, it's your status quo and a hell of a lot of people's. It's the same as arguing how changing Sargeras' backstory to have it be someone else who put him up to it is a-okay since the end point was unaffected is fine, but keeping it the same race and the same events is a grave offense in SL. In truth, both are moot. It's a double standard and it's a double standard born purely of then-attachment to the setting. When discussing Zul'jin, also a classic RTS character, you contrive this whole multi-paragraph segment in your earlier post about how it's okay that we offed him because of the break with the Horde and their new bonds with the blood elves. But that story doesn't exist. The story of the killing of the OG Horde troll character is that a meme character wants to steal his goods, so he gathers together other meme characters, raids the troll capital and steals his shit. There is no story being told, not even in implication, it's entirely steamrolling an old character for laughs. When you kill Zul'jin the quest text is all about how happy said redneck character will be that you have brought him Zul'jin's blood and he can now shut up. There's your fucking story.

I'd tell you the reason for it, but you already did 'Not many people played WC2', so massacring its characters for cheap laughs is fine. But a lot of people did play TFT, a lot more than read the RPG books concerning Rastakhan which are the only places he threatens to be a character, so the only blood elf character from the RTS becoming a lol-insane villain because something, something demons consists of a significantly greater disrespect of the material. That's not to say that BFA is better, either as an expansion or a story, I've shat on it for years for what it did with the Horde, as it ruins every old character it touches to a TBC-like extent and does the faction in to boot. BFA is much worse for reasons outside the Zandalari, which it handles well. But Shadowlands does absolutely nothing to the Horde in either direction, which makes it tower over both of these expansions by default. In terms of attacking the ambience of the faction, saddling it with an inappropriate race for all time and putting the stake in its classic characters is significantly more damage than Baine and Thrall being the eunuchs and clowns they've been for over a decade at this stage, well before Afrasiabi ever decided to remake Mists or Danuser decided that people must know about Sylvanas's split soul and the obtuse soul-sifting mechanisms of robots.

[Syegfryed]

There is no rational way to argue to the point that what BFA did with its allied races is somehow a greater breach than what TBC did with the Blood Elves. BFA added the Zandalari trolls to the playable Horde and also immensely fleshed them out in terms of internal characters and culture. It did kill Rastakhan, but not only was he in terms of presence who's sum role in the setting was some throwaway lines and presence in the RPG, but the character who replaced him was built up to replace him and in everything from class attitudes to her stance on the war had the torch passed to her in a way that was reasonable. Rastakhan's arc was shown to us throughout and delivered coherently and consistently as well. The Zandalari being part of the Horde was both worked towards heavily and when that reason elapsed, there was a whole book centering on why they should stay.

Like i said, i realize they did add zandalari, but they are crap compared to what we knew from old lore, they are, in my the last "trollish" tribe we ever saw, you think they fleshed then out but to me they just neutred then down because black panther movie, i feel more trol vibes from the amani or the Gurrubashi, and they killed Rasthakan as plot device, exactly like what they did with Wc2, but that affects me more because Rastkahan was supposed to lead the trolls on my faction.

I argue that they done dirt even with ''kultiras with jaina coming out of fucking nowhere and becoming their eladera fter years away, like she fucking knows how to deal with their kingdom.

Those little tidbits of nonsense to me are much worse and greatly affect my immersion and my gameplay, On top of that they shoved night elves mana addict version, another damn elf in the horde.

Kael'thas wasn't some vague background character, he was the protagonist of the Blood Elf-centric campaign in the RTS and more so than that, he was the only blood elf character in the entire RTS. He was to redefining the generic Tolkien elf to Warcraft's take on them what Thrall was to the orcs. It 'making sense' that he'd go lol-insane off-screen based on factors relating to Kil'jaeden and magic repurposed spaceships that were not present in the RTS and ergo impossible to envision is not comparable to Rastakhan's full character arc we got to see on-screen. Kael'thas did not leave behind a race with more hooks in the narrative than it had proper, but after we'd killed him in a location also impossible to foresee from the RTS out or in line with how he behaved in it, he was replaced by a dude who was a meme for ten years for his total lack of personality and his underused council, in charge of a race who's narrative hooks were cut off. Kael was a far more important character than Rastakhan by an order of magnitude and destroying his character casually and going 'lol, he met some demons that's why he's a raving lunatic now, it's okay' is one of the reasons why TBC is such a steaming pile of shit. Not the least of which because it also happens to the OG Naga in Vashj, to Illidan, to Kargath and so on and so on.

But again, Kael wasn't one protagonist of a tiny campaign in the expansion, who was tiny on their own, He was persecuted by former allies, and found the answer to his addiction by submiting to a new master, that is campaign Arc, his descending to "madness" is something foreshadowed by others before him and how elves get deeply affected by magic, the addiction, hungry of power and all, his turning to villany gave us Theron and Rommanth, arguably better characters than Talanj would ever be.

Again, im no saying it was not bad, but the events were not nonsensical, and blood elf lore was not entirely fucked/ruined, unlike everything that happened t the rest of horde races in legion-bfa, trolls and orcs without leader, without voice and relevance in their own faction, they compltely ruined the entire horde narrative build on Wc3 till mop, they made the taurens a joke with Blue Baine, and vol'jin, killed by a shit macguffing, amde on the spot, to plot device Sylvanas.

And don't let me start with Holy udnead Calia and jaina brother's, two aliance characters, assuming the leadership of the forsaken

Im sorry but i see all of this as much worse as to what happened to Kael, by a mile.

It's an undercurrent of an argument that's always contradictory because it's fundamentally based on a double standard. It's why I said before that I've zero expectation of convincing someone who started with TBC of why it's so wretched.

Im saying it is, but im also saying in't worse tha, Legion-bfa-shadowlands, tbc fucked characters, those 3 expansions fucked the whole game, characters, factions, races, nothing is left standing.


for those 3 epansions the only good thing ic an't think that happened in the horde, was the zandalari joining(barely) iron horde tech and new goblin leadership.

I'd tell you the reason for it, but you already did 'Not many people played WC2', so massacring its characters for cheap laughs is fine.

thing is, wc2 characters were not currently in the faction by the time they were ruined, their height will be less heavy than the ones in the factions that they decide to shat upon.

If they keep making Thrall and baine eunuchs, and they are still on my faction, is a reminder i have two dipshits leading my characters., that compltely ruin any immersion i would have in the game

[Ersula]

Imagine if the story of shadowlands was about Sylvanas leading everyone in a war against the Jailer. And what if they gave Arthas the confusing redemption arc. I think everyone would have preferred that.

[Super Dickmann]

Like i said, i realize they did add zandalari, but they are crap compared to what we knew from old lore, they are, in my the last "trollish" tribe we ever saw, you think they fleshed then out but to me they just neutred then down because black panther movie, i feel more trol vibes from the amani or the Gurrubashi, and they killed Rasthakan as plot device, exactly like what they did with Wc2, but that affects me more because Rastkahan was supposed to lead the trolls on my faction.

I argue that they done dirt even with ''kultiras with jaina coming out of fucking nowhere and becoming their eladera fter years away, like she fucking knows how to deal with their kingdom.

Those little tidbits of nonsense to me are much worse and greatly affect my immersion and my gameplay, On top of that they shoved night elves mana addict version, another damn elf in the horde.

Rastakhan was not a character past a few lines alluding to him before BFA and without preset qualities. The core crux of him being an absentee king ruled by his over-eager vizier was already the whole premise for when Zul was introduced through Cataclysm and Mists. When he did appear, the story worked its way towards his death and had a moment of him passing the torch to his daughter after having already gone through his own story of getting his balls back, making a deal with Bwonsamdi and so forth. Beyond just Talanji, who has much more of a character than Bob or literally any post-Kael blood elf character did up until Mists, only for BFA to beclown him yet again, on top of being the only post-BFA character who didn't get her balls/ovaries snipped and so remained assmad about her father being killed. I can actually describe the Zandalari culture post-BFA, from their class dynamics to a religion where killing your opposing deity's followers is a casual activity done as competition between the high priests of different gods. I know about their stance on death and undeath and about their kings. I know more about them than I ever did about the Darkspear and while I 100% agree that I like the Amani better, I also find the Zandalari to be everything advertised. Of all of BFA's sins Horde-side, all of them are on the Horde's established characters. The characters it introduces function as intended.

The route you describe for Kael simply isn't there on-screen. Yes, Kael could have gone insane from interacting with demons after his whole story in TFT featured him as a level-headed, rational figure in guiding his people instead of a deranged narcissist. He could also have actually lead the race that he named and who rotated around his character in the RTS and the addiction and demon magic use could've been tools and plot hooks for the race as they were in the RTS instead of being done away with to be replaced by bargain bin high elves. The story works itself towards an ending with Rastakhan's arc. Even Jaina's abysmal story has an arc. All Kael has is a destination and that destination is a dead end that eliminates all defining traits of his race and both literally and figuratively murders his character. It's a good thing you brought up Calia, because the TBC Blood elf story is the beta test for the Forsaken story. All defining traits cut out - check, RTS leader and defining figure working with Satan because of a contrived reading fo their old story plus bizarre new elements - check, naaru associated Alliance character taking a more important positive role than said leader - check, having your husk stuck on the wrong faction for all time - double check. As for Zul'jin, he doesn't even get the dignity of a narrative and unlike Rastakhan he was actually part of a playable Horde before that point. In WC3 he was a figure of pride still, referenced by headhunters. Even when he was put on the chopping bloc he had more identifiable traits than any Darkspear character and the Amani had more of an identity too. To this day trolls voice lines mention Zul'jin and all of the blood elves' voice lines are as out of date as the Forsaken ones.

Legion and BFA did not turn Baine into a eunuch - he was always a eunuch with the exception of Vanilla when he was a quest giver without defined personality. Cataclysm didn't do much with him and Mists buried him. Thrall was a joke since Green Jesus. I don't cut slack for the Calia plotline or for the destruction of the MU orcs in Mists or the entire Horde faction in BFA. I see no reason to cut TBC slack when it pulled exactly the same shit, with the caveat that it did it earlier and its most lasting consequence beyond its meme-filled massacre of characters only affected a B-race like the blood elves instead of the main Horde race, like Mists did the orcs, or the whole faction, as BFA did.

[Super Dickmann]

Imagine if the story of shadowlands was about Sylvanas leading everyone in a war against the Jailer. And what if they gave Arthas the confusing redemption arc. I think everyone would have preferred that.

It'd replace one terrible redemption arc with another, even more galling one, while also still keeping Sylvanas going from turbo Satan to a hero, which most everyone hates. All this without solving the primary problems of player investment, setting and the blandness of a villain who's only defining traits are how many retcons he's latched onto. It's one of the few changes I can think of that's actually worse for the SL narrative than leaving it untouched.

We really need a Warcraft 4 that is a direct continuation of TFT and which ignores all of WoW.

It's the only way to salvage the Warcraft universe at this point.

Just don't let it be made by ActiBlizzard.

Extremely true. They outdid themselves when they managed to not only fuck over a remake of an old game with WC3: Reforged but break a perfectly functional game in SC2 to the point where the campaign is unplayable. Hire the guys behind Chronicles of the Second War, give them a fat check and access to the art team and then don't disturb.

[Syegfryed]

Rastakhan was not a character past a few lines alluding to him before BFA and without preset qualities. The core crux of him being an absentee king ruled by his over-eager vizier was already the whole premise for when Zul was introduced through Cataclysm and Mists. When he did appear, the story worked its way towards his death and had a moment of him passing the torch to his daughter after having already gone through his own story of getting his balls back, making a deal with Bwonsamdi and so forth. Beyond just Talanji, who has much more of a character than Bob or literally any post-Kael blood elf character did up until Mists, only for BFA to beclown him yet again, on top of being the only post-BFA character who didn't get her balls/ovaries snipped and so remained assmad about her father being killed. I can actually describe the Zandalari culture post-BFA, from their class dynamics to a religion where killing your opposing deity's followers is a casual activity done as competition between the high priests of different gods. I know about their stance on death and undeath and about their kings. I know more about them than I ever did about the Darkspear and while I 100% agree that I like the Amani better, I also find the Zandalari to be everything advertised. Of all of BFA's sins Horde-side, all of them are on the Horde's established characters. The characters it introduces function as intended.

I don't see him as an absentee king, but they did make him a fool in bfa, something i would no expect from a king who ruled for 700 years.

i felt more zandalari vibes watching theircataclysm trailler or MOP itself.

They made did him a dumb leader to show how awesome Talanji is and give her the leadership, that is just awfully done and lazy writing, you don't shit on previous characters to make the new ones better, and this is blizzard tool to introduce new ones lately.

Again, not saying what we got with the zandalari was awful, but it was far from good compared to what we could have, is one pearl in a pool of shit.

The route you describe for Kael simply isn't there on-screen. Yes, Kael could have gone insane from interacting with demons after his whole story in TFT featured him as a level-headed, rational figure in guiding his people instead of a deranged narcissist. He could also have actually lead the race that he named and who rotated around his character in the RTS and the addiction and demon magic use could've been tools and plot hooks for the race as they were in the RTS instead of being done away with to be replaced by bargain bin high elves

.

Again, i totally agree with you that there were much better ways to handle things and there would be way better ways to make TBC, that is a fact, but it was not nonsensical, just badly writen/told. in short, TBC problems was of HOW, legion-bfa-shadowlands, was HOW and WHY and prob where too, lmao

The moment The elves joined the horde, Zul'jin/the amani were bound to be enemies and villains. But it was not nonsensical because zul'jin hismelf said fuck you to the horde and went to attack the elves, his abandon also was one of the reason the horde lost the final push.

Legion and BFA did not turn Baine into a eunuch - he was always a eunuch from his first day in the franchise.

yeah, but he was a nobody, he stayed in his place, only slightly coming out to play alliance puppet, like warning jaina about the attack, he had no relevance or moral to do or say shit, i didn't had to talk to him, or see him, let alone save him, when i rly wanted let him die there..

in BfA we learn he was in orgrimmar, leading the city and denying other races to join the faction, COME ON.

Cataclysm didn't do much with him and Mists buried him. Thrall was a joke since Green Jesus. I don't cut slack for the Calia plotline or for the destruction of the MU orcs in Mists or the entire Horde faction in BFA. I see no reason to cut TBC slack when it pulls exactly the same shit, with the caveat that it did it earlier and its most lastin consequence only affected a B-race like the blood elves instead of the main Horde race, like Mists did the orcs, or the whole faction, as BFA did.

im just saying wasn't worse than the shit expansions we had lately.

in tbc, i had reasons to play horde, or alliance, now? nothing at all.

[Super Dickmann]

in tbc, i had reasons to play horde, or alliance, now? nothing at all.

I think for the rest we're mostly circling the wagons on points where we agree on the specifics but not on their relative or is about shit that I've not had enough eggnog to go on about. On this point we're of one mind.

While I doubt there'd be a 'good' time to do Shadowlands, especially not without slicing out of all of its unnecessary retcons, there was a better time and that time was not after BFA had left the factions into shapeless masses, the Horde especially. To pivot from ending the Horde's main institutions and turning all of its older characters into laughing stocks into a story where they've zero to do except be Anduin's little helpers while leaving the race and world past a world war in limbo doomed an already obtuse setting to few people caring about it, while the elements they couldn't escape from like BFA's handling of Sylvanas or the assmad night elf contingent are also ones that are uniformly the worst parts of Shadowlands as well. They went for a sprint except they weren't sure of the track, had it changed mid-way through due to the pandemic and scandals and had chopped off their legs before going in.

[Mosotti]

I think the only solution now is a Bobby Ewing shower move.

[iinverse]

In next xpacs we will get a brand new dude which is the true villain behide Zovaal.

[FAILoZOFF]

Sadly, yes, if we rly want something good the only alternative is a reboot/reset. back to vanilla or i dunno, cataclysm at least.

- - - Updated - - -



it was a fan favorite theory that the Janitor partially succeed or something else happened and we came back to azeroth changed.

Or, that in the real world much time have passed and there is a timeskip.

But, i don't believe they have the balls to do it.

I believed so some time ago but then realized that there wont be any "hard reset", not a chance. Even tho, that's exactly what this universe desperately needs.
"how do you know?!" you ask.
alied races. They would NEVER ever touch that, and they would make 0 sense in any other "timeline" than that we have now.

@OP.
Yeah, It is done.

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haha. Man I still feel like thematically all of Shadowlands except the Maw totally fails on the "this is the realm of the afterlife." Everything is just so....fleshy.

It had to be this way as at the end of the day you still need to "do" stuff and provide you with "activities". Also, that is the very same reason why choosing "afterlife" as main theme and place for next expansion was a 10iq move. Alternative timeline was already a stupid idea... afterlife, even worse.
There are things in fantasy that are better left untouched, unexplained and covered in mists of mystery.

[DatToffer]

It can't be destroyed, because it was never built in the first place.

So long and see you for the next inconsistent adventures !