Potential solution to borrowed power systems as only endgame progression beyond gear

[Tanq]

Hi everyone!

DISCLAIMER: I have been playing since 2006 up until patch 8.1 hence I haven't played Shadowlands, but I keep in touch with people that do. It seems that the same problem occur in every expansion, and here are my two cents to fix "Here champion! I give you this ring of ultimate power to banish the evil! But I need it back later, okay?"

These ideas are progression beyond a specific expansion, with either minor or cosmetic gameplay changes. These should let you undergo most of the content the game has to offer (raids, dungeons, PvP, challenges (mage tower events) and open world exploration) without only being valid for one expansion. I am not going to discuss the revamp of class specialization and their corresponding talent trees as most of the game changing gameplay should come from them. But I find the current talents undynamic and somewhat bland. I would love to see power progressing being tired into these talents, by adding another layer to the choices, that is another discussion.

Back on topic:

Race specific leveling tree. At the moment the choice of race is highly cosmetic and you get some flat benefits/abilities (e.g. Berserker, Shadowmeld, +5 mining etc.). Why not expand on these abilities, making your character feel more in touch with whatever race they belong too. While leveling you slowly getting a choice of how to evolve in the society as a night elf or troll or whatever you have chosen. If you are a dwarf that wants to mine the shit out of ores, train that. If you are a troll hunter that likes your pets you can choose to increase the damage done by your pet or slightly increase you weapon damage by completing relevant training/quests/challenges or reputation. Or let shadowmeld last 1-2 second after you move in exchange for a longer cd, if you succeed in completing the sneaky questline. Small but interactive gameplay that you unluck forever. You would not loose the original ability, just have a secondary option. In this suggestion cosmetic gear could be included by unlocking ways to upgrade you heritage armor with new visuals depending on you dedication to your race. The general idea is to evolve your character and to feel that your initial choice matters, by investing time into that specific character and race.

Mount leveling tree. This is to give you some small but fun benefits as you level up your riding skill. And maybe it should be tired to something other than just gold and time gating. If you want to fly in a new expansion, be my guest. But know that your mount leveling tree is not leveled for those specific weather conditions, and you might suffer dismounting after your mount it blown way up in the sky or other weird behavior. Better gather some knowledge before you can safely roam the skies, but by taking your chances it is not excluded to do so. Other benefits could be the ability to cripple attackers while mounted (% chance with a CD) or getting a short speed boost first time you are attacked (with a CD). Why not upgrade your race specific mount to reflect these improvements by adding new cosmetics or visuals to your mount as you level.

Class specific leveling tree. This is for a class and not a specialization, though some animations might rely on a specific specializations ability. These ideas are a combination of what glyphs used to be, the concept of class skins and to a small degree of power progression. An example could be a warrior reaching max level. Then your warrior training reaches a new level once you learned the basic toolkit and through quests and challenges you unlock new visuals and effects for some of your abilities. Example: mortal strike but a different swing animation and with a fiery effect on hit giving your enemy a fiery dot after you completed that hardcore questline in firelands. Or as a druid, you gain improved or completely new appearances depending on what quest/training you undertake, giving you small perks to each improvement. This is to respect and be awarded for your time investment and skill, with new visuals that you can show off to your fellow players, with minor effects/perks added. These could reflect the theme of whatever expansion is tired to that challenge or quest so you can make your warrior more death knighty by focusing on WOTLK or your shaman more pandaria themed - making old content matter again while new expansions can further develop on this system.

Class specific leveling tree 2.0. Instead of using up a lot of dev time (class-specific questlines and challenges) just go to "one" class that no other class will ever see (think Legion artifacts), these could be combined if reaching enough reputation with whatever "second class theme" you chase. E.g. the warrior looking for druid training, letting the warrior experience all the content made for the druid class. Making his/hers ability reflecting that training. Swing your weapon and see a druidish effect (like the Might Bash for druids), thorns to protect you when you shield wall, becoming a big bearman/woman during Avatar or changing your idle stance - stuff like that when you further your druid training as a warrior. You can imagen how a warlock or paladin getting shaman training would look like. You should be able to change the visuals as you unlock them with a system similar to barber/transmorg. Only the combinations that makes sense should exist and one active training style at a time.

Conclusion. This is just some of my thoughts and an attempt to glue the expansions together and make you care about your characters progression again by baking expansion progression into your baseline character progression. Instead of getting all these temporary powers from various sources (artifacts, legendaries, azerite armor, covenants), merge some of the expansion specific thematic effects into the base toolkit for a giving class. Where the same applies whether a warrior chooses to train druidisme or becomes a necrolord, the nature of their animation reflects that choice and some small effects applies. When a new cool expansion is released, instead of giving new abilities through new complex systems, just give the option to change the appearance of the baseline ability with the new thematic expansion after completing new never before seen way to get them (content). For further depth and commitment each visual could have a tier, where the highest tier is the most flashy, like in BfA. I don't mind new expansions adding some stuff, but adding stuff that is only relevant for that specific expansion seems discouraging, not inclusive and uninteresting to me.

What do you think of such changes? Do you have other similar ideas?

Thanks for reading and sorry for the wall of text =)

[cleverenglish]

Hi everyone!

DISCLAIMER: I have been playing since 2006 up until patch 8.1 hence I haven't played Shadowlands, but I keep in touch with people that do. It seems that the same problem occur in every expansion, and here are my two cents to fix "Here champion! I give you this ring of ultimate power to banish the evil! But I need it back later, okay?"

These ideas are progression beyond a specific expansion, with either minor or cosmetic gameplay changes. These should let you undergo most of the content the game has to offer (raids, dungeons, PvP, challenges (mage tower events) and open world exploration) without only being valid for one expansion. I am not going to discuss the revamp of class specialization and their corresponding talent trees as most of the game changing gameplay should come from them. But I find the current talents undynamic and somewhat bland. I would love to see power progressing being tired into these talents, by adding another layer to the choices, that is another discussion.

Back on topic:

Race specific leveling tree. At the moment the choice of race is highly cosmetic and you get some flat benefits/abilities (e.g. Berserker, Shadowmeld, +5 mining etc.). Why not expand on these abilities, making your character feel more in touch with whatever race they belong too. While leveling you slowly getting a choice of how to evolve in the society as a night elf or troll or whatever you have chosen. If you are a dwarf that wants to mine the shit out of ores, train that. If you are a troll hunter that likes your pets you can choose to increase the damage done by your pet or slightly increase you weapon damage by completing relevant training/quests/challenges or reputation. Or let shadowmeld last 1-2 second after you move in exchange for a longer cd, if you succeed in completing the sneaky questline. Small but interactive gameplay that you unluck forever. You would not loose the original ability, just have a secondary option. In this suggestion cosmetic gear could be included by unlocking ways to upgrade you heritage armor with new visuals depending on you dedication to your race. The general idea is to evolve your character and to feel that your initial choice matters, by investing time into that specific character and race.

Mount leveling tree. This is to give you some small but fun benefits as you level up your riding skill. And maybe it should be tired to something other than just gold and time gating. If you want to fly in a new expansion, be my guest. But know that your mount leveling tree is not leveled for those specific weather conditions, and you might suffer dismounting after your mount it blown way up in the sky or other weird behavior. Better gather some knowledge before you can safely roam the skies, but by taking your chances it is not excluded to do so. Other benefits could be the ability to cripple attackers while mounted (% chance with a CD) or getting a short speed boost first time you are attacked (with a CD). Why not upgrade your race specific mount to reflect these improvements by adding new cosmetics or visuals to your mount as you level.

Class specific leveling tree. This is for a class and not a specialization, though some animations might rely on a specific specializations ability. These ideas are a combination of what glyphs used to be, the concept of class skins and to a small degree of power progression. An example could be a warrior reaching max level. Then your warrior training reaches a new level once you learned the basic toolkit and through quests and challenges you unlock new visuals and effects for some of your abilities. Example: mortal strike but a different swing animation and with a fiery effect on hit giving your enemy a fiery dot after you completed that hardcore questline in firelands. Or as a druid, you gain improved or completely new appearances depending on what quest/training you undertake, giving you small perks to each improvement. This is to respect and be awarded for your time investment and skill, with new visuals that you can show off to your fellow players, with minor effects/perks added. These could reflect the theme of whatever expansion is tired to that challenge or quest so you can make your warrior more death knighty by focusing on WOTLK or your shaman more pandaria themed - making old content matter again while new expansions can further develop on this system.

Class specific leveling tree 2.0. Instead of using up a lot of dev time (class-specific questlines and challenges) just go to "one" class that no other class will ever see (think Legion artifacts), these could be combined if reaching enough reputation with whatever "second class theme" you chase. E.g. the warrior looking for druid training, letting the warrior experience all the content made for the druid class. Making his/hers ability reflecting that training. Swing your weapon and see a druidish effect (like the Might Bash for druids), thorns to protect you when you shield wall, becoming a big bearman/woman during Avatar or changing your idle stance - stuff like that when you further your druid training as a warrior. You can imagen how a warlock or paladin getting shaman training would look like. You should be able to change the visuals as you unlock them with a system similar to barber/transmorg. Only the combinations that makes sense should exist and one active training style at a time.

Conclusion. This is just some of my thoughts and an attempt to glue the expansions together and make you care about your characters progression again by baking expansion progression into your baseline character progression. Instead of getting all these temporary powers from various sources (artifacts, legendaries, azerite armor, covenants), merge some of the expansion specific thematic effects into the base toolkit for a giving class. Where the same applies whether a warrior chooses to train druidisme or becomes a necrolord, the nature of their animation reflects that choice and some small effects applies. When a new cool expansion is released, instead of giving new abilities through new complex systems, just give the option to change the appearance of the baseline ability with the new thematic expansion after completing new never before seen way to get them (content). For further depth and commitment each visual could have a tier, where the highest tier is the most flashy, like in BfA. I don't mind new expansions adding some stuff, but adding stuff that is only relevant for that specific expansion seems discouraging, not inclusive and uninteresting to me.

What do you think of such changes? Do you have other similar ideas?

Thanks for reading and sorry for the wall of text =)

Thanks for sharing a good informations. I just want to say Wow, how do you think and do that? I like your ideas undergo most of the content the game has to offer (raids, dungeons, PvP, challenges by basketball legends (mage tower events) and open world exploration) without only being valid for one expansion, it so great and will be power progressing being tired into these talents, by adding another layer to the choices. You're quite good at it, keep going. Have a good day!

[Amnaught]

Example: mortal strike but a different swing animation and with a fiery effect on hit giving your enemy a fiery dot after you completed that hardcore questline in firelands.

Started strong, bug ugh no please no more of this.

Cosmetic glyphs are awesome and definitely need to be turned up to 11 with coolness. But holy crap, please never add another optional flavor ability with majorly different mechanical effects, like new DOT or absorb effects. At least not like this.

For example: Covenant spells. People whined that they had to pick a Covenant that was best based on what content they were playing. Because there was, and will always be, some spells that are better than other spells in specific situations. Had all of the covenant spells been strictly cosmetic, none of those problems would have existed. I'd *love* to have unlocked a bunch of Venthyr cosmetic glyphs on my Blood Elf that replace all of the gold spell effects with venthyr-sin-blood effects, while changing none of the damage output or utility. A Shadow Bolt glyph for necrolord warlocks that shot out a necrotic death bolt? Fuck yeah.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Started strong, bug ugh no please no more of this.

Cosmetic glyphs are awesome and definitely need to be turned up to 11 with coolness. But holy crap, please never add another optional flavor ability with majorly different mechanical effects, like new DOT or absorb effects. At least not like this.

For example: Covenant spells. People whined that they had to pick a Covenant that was best based on what content they were playing. Because there was, and will always be, some spells that are better than other spells in specific situations. Had all of the covenant spells been strictly cosmetic, none of those problems would have existed. I'd *love* to have unlocked a bunch of Venthyr cosmetic glyphs on my Blood Elf that replace all of the gold spell effects with venthyr-sin-blood effects, while changing none of the damage output or utility. A Shadow Bolt glyph for necrolord warlocks that shot out a necrotic death bolt? Fuck yeah.

Cosmetic stuff for classes would be an awesome idea. Way for them to add more glyphs which they took out for who knows why.

[scubi666stacy]

Easiest way: Let us earn new power, then incorporate all of it into the character.

[Tanq]

Started strong, bug ugh no please no more of this.

Thanks for your feedback

Honestly, the idea started being purely cosmetic modifications. But at some point it seem odd to me not to manifest the visual flavor of your choice into the world, being fire, frost, death or whatever. But achieving that without impacting your power, e.g. the warrior example would take some of the baseline dmg out of the initial hit (like 1-2%) and add it as a small fiery dot leaving the output damage at a 1:1 ratio = no change, purely flavor.

[Paperfox]

What would happen to alts that are similar?
- same race but different class
- same class but different race

Or would everything be character specific?

Or some combinations, so if you've done it on one toon, then the next toon just needs to do a recap or refresher quest.

[Tanq]

Thanks for sharing a good informations. I just want to say Wow, how do you think and do that? I like your ideas undergo most of the content the game has to offer (raids, dungeons, PvP, challenges by basketball legends (mage tower events) and open world exploration) without only being valid for one expansion, it so great and will be power progressing being tired into these talents, by adding another layer to the choices. You're quite good at it, keep going. Have a good day!

Thank you for reading it and I am glad you liked it =)

[LilSaihah]

the best solution to borrowed power is to not have borrowed power systems

[Tanq]

What would happen to alts that are similar?
- same race but different class
- same class but different race

Or would everything be character specific?

Or some combinations, so if you've done it on one toon, then the next toon just needs to do a recap or refresher quest.

Good questions. The general idea is that it is character specific, attempting to give you incentive to put more hours into just one toon. I think that it might feel more including and fulfilling for the player while also creating a sort of bond with that specific character. But again, there are many things that would need to be sorted out, as I agree it would feel redundant to replay all race specific content on an alt within the same race as your main.

[Kuja]

The game definitely needs more customization. Talent trees are an excellent way to do it, especially if they're more complex.

One is desperately neededed for old world farming. The more you kill old bosses, the more you can unlock new stuff that improves transmog pieces dropping and making your life more easier at it. I know there's tons of people who'd like to get every transmog piece from every dungeon and raid, but won't bother because it's way too time consuming.

[MrLachyG]

Easiest way: Let us earn new power, then incorporate all of it into the character.

^this. if the levelling is going back to normal (next expac 70, then 80 etc) then adding some of the new spells/abilities we learned during the previous expac as player power as either the max level talent or things we learn as we level would be the ideal situation. if we're getting squished back to 50 again, then add them in the same way. there are so many dead talents anyway that nobody uses I am sure there is room to put them in.

as for player power in general it is fine but should be unlocked a lot faster. i.e. have all the cool shit unlocked by the time the first mythic raids open and then the rest is small passives. People will in general play at least the first 6-8 weeks of an expansion so having everything unlocked by week 4-5 will help retain people as all they need to do is log for raids (if they so choose) instead of having to log in every day to do chore-ish content.

[Geckoo]

The game would benefit from having a permanent max level progression system that is not tied to power or specific content. Basically, once you reach max level, you keep earning experience from kills & quests and every <X> amount of experience you get a <whatever level> that comes with a talent point to invest in an account bound talent tree with a bunch of QoL passives that can affect different areas, unlock certain content that eventually leads to cosmetic rewards and even be connected with expansion specific content as the way to make certain things account bound. Some of the ideas from the OP can fit into this.

Besides that, i don't think that expansion specific power systems are conceptually bad, but they made them work in a really bad way. Basically, they killed any sense of character progress through the years and while it's true that they can't keep adding new skills and talents forever, removing an expansion worth of progress as soon as you move to the new expansion or set foot on a different zone does not feel good.

Long term progress and expansion specific progress are not exclusive to each other, they actually work best when combined, when part of your effort through an expansion stays with you and at least tries to add something permanent to how you play your class while you also have other things that also have some influence on how you play your class but won't last for too long, like tier sets.

[Gorsameth]

Easiest way: Let us earn new power, then incorporate all of it into the character.

That is a fundamental failure to recognise why borrowed power exists in the first place.
Giving players new power every expansions and letting you keep it causes bloat issues. That is why borrowed power exists, its taken away to prevent bloat.

If you want to do away with borrowed power systems think of something that gives players something new to play with without is causing bloat.

[cocomen2]

Giving players new power every expansions and letting you keep it causes bloat issues. That is why borrowed power exists, its taken away to prevent bloat.

And yet it was okay from classic to wod, and THEN suddenly not okay and we have this shitshow :
"Here new skills and toys BOY, but 2 years later i gonna take it all away, so waste next hundred hours by farming AP for it, lel loser"

Unexpected? but people want new talent rows and skills, that would be integrated in classes and not thrown away!

You want prevent bloating of skill book, than add more new stuff and let player vote what skills feel outdated and need to be pruned.

[Gigantique]

Hi everyone!

DISCLAIMER: I have been playing since 2006 up until patch 8.1 hence I haven't played Shadowlands, but I keep in touch with people that do. It seems that the same problem occur in every expansion, and here are my two cents to fix "Here champion! I give you this ring of ultimate power to banish the evil! But I need it back later, okay?"

These ideas are progression beyond a specific expansion, with either minor or cosmetic gameplay changes. These should let you undergo most of the content the game has to offer (raids, dungeons, PvP, challenges (mage tower events) and open world exploration) without only being valid for one expansion. I am not going to discuss the revamp of class specialization and their corresponding talent trees as most of the game changing gameplay should come from them. But I find the current talents undynamic and somewhat bland. I would love to see power progressing being tired into these talents, by adding another layer to the choices, that is another discussion.

Back on topic:

Race specific leveling tree. At the moment the choice of race is highly cosmetic and you get some flat benefits/abilities (e.g. Berserker, Shadowmeld, +5 mining etc.). Why not expand on these abilities, making your character feel more in touch with whatever race they belong too. While leveling you slowly getting a choice of how to evolve in the society as a night elf or troll or whatever you have chosen. If you are a dwarf that wants to mine the shit out of ores, train that. If you are a troll hunter that likes your pets you can choose to increase the damage done by your pet or slightly increase you weapon damage by completing relevant training/quests/challenges or reputation. Or let shadowmeld last 1-2 second after you move in exchange for a longer cd, if you succeed in completing the sneaky questline. Small but interactive gameplay that you unluck forever. You would not loose the original ability, just have a secondary option. In this suggestion cosmetic gear could be included by unlocking ways to upgrade you heritage armor with new visuals depending on you dedication to your race. The general idea is to evolve your character and to feel that your initial choice matters, by investing time into that specific character and race.

Mount leveling tree. This is to give you some small but fun benefits as you level up your riding skill. And maybe it should be tired to something other than just gold and time gating. If you want to fly in a new expansion, be my guest. But know that your mount leveling tree is not leveled for those specific weather conditions, and you might suffer dismounting after your mount it blown way up in the sky or other weird behavior. Better gather some knowledge before you can safely roam the skies, but by taking your chances it is not excluded to do so. Other benefits could be the ability to cripple attackers while mounted (% chance with a CD) or getting a short speed boost first time you are attacked (with a CD). Why not upgrade your race specific mount to reflect these improvements by adding new cosmetics or visuals to your mount as you level.

Class specific leveling tree. This is for a class and not a specialization, though some animations might rely on a specific specializations ability. These ideas are a combination of what glyphs used to be, the concept of class skins and to a small degree of power progression. An example could be a warrior reaching max level. Then your warrior training reaches a new level once you learned the basic toolkit and through quests and challenges you unlock new visuals and effects for some of your abilities. Example: mortal strike but a different swing animation and with a fiery effect on hit giving your enemy a fiery dot after you completed that hardcore questline in firelands. Or as a druid, you gain improved or completely new appearances depending on what quest/training you undertake, giving you small perks to each improvement. This is to respect and be awarded for your time investment and skill, with new visuals that you can show off to your fellow players, with minor effects/perks added. These could reflect the theme of whatever expansion is tired to that challenge or quest so you can make your warrior more death knighty by focusing on WOTLK or your shaman more pandaria themed - making old content matter again while new expansions can further develop on this system.

Class specific leveling tree 2.0. Instead of using up a lot of dev time (class-specific questlines and challenges) just go to "one" class that no other class will ever see (think Legion artifacts), these could be combined if reaching enough reputation with whatever "second class theme" you chase. E.g. the warrior looking for druid training, letting the warrior experience all the content made for the druid class. Making his/hers ability reflecting that training. Swing your weapon and see a druidish effect (like the Might Bash for druids), thorns to protect you when you shield wall, becoming a big bearman/woman during Avatar or changing your idle stance - stuff like that when you further your druid training as a warrior. You can imagen how a warlock or paladin getting shaman training would look like. You should be able to change the visuals as you unlock them with a system similar to barber/transmorg. Only the combinations that makes sense should exist and one active training style at a time.

Conclusion. This is just some of my thoughts and an attempt to glue the expansions together and make you care about your characters progression again by baking expansion progression into your baseline character progression. Instead of getting all these temporary powers from various sources (artifacts, legendaries, azerite armor, covenants), merge some of the expansion specific thematic effects into the base toolkit for a giving class. Where the same applies whether a warrior chooses to train druidisme or becomes a necrolord, the nature of their animation reflects that choice and some small effects applies. When a new cool expansion is released, instead of giving new abilities through new complex systems, just give the option to change the appearance of the baseline ability with the new thematic expansion after completing new never before seen way to get them (content). For further depth and commitment each visual could have a tier, where the highest tier is the most flashy, like in BfA. I don't mind new expansions adding some stuff, but adding stuff that is only relevant for that specific expansion seems discouraging, not inclusive and uninteresting to me.

What do you think of such changes? Do you have other similar ideas?

Thanks for reading and sorry for the wall of text =)

Hard pass on the first one imo. Luckily the race bonuses are small enough as it is that I can pick the one I like and still be competitive. But with a racial tree they'd either have to make the tree 100% cosmetic, make the combat bonuses weak as hell (and therefore boring) or each class will be shoehorned into the race that has their best tree (even worse if it's different per spec say with your example of Trolls getting a +dmg buff to pets, which is awesome for BM hunters but usually useless for MM hunters etc)

[Gorsameth]

And yet it was okay from classic to wod, and THEN suddenly not okay and we have this shitshow :
"Here new skills and toys BOY, but 2 years later i gonna take it all away, so waste next hundred hours by farming AP for it, lel loser"

Unexpected? but people want new talent rows and skills, that would be integrated in classes and not thrown away!

You want prevent bloating of skill book, than add more new stuff and let player vote what skills feel outdated and need to be pruned.

Yes, it was 'okay' for a bunch of expansions until the new stuff piled to high (bloat) and then they pruned classes and people went apeshit. So instead you get borrowed power.

"everything was fine until it wasn't" is what bloat does. Gaining 1 kg isn't bad, but do it enough times and now your morbidly obese.

Also the "lol you wasted time doing X" is a bad mindset. I play games to have fun. Did you have fun playing? Then its not wasted, because your goal was to have fun and fun was had.
If your not having fun then you should probably look into playing something else that you do find fun and leave WoW behind.

[Flaim]

hard pass.
you're replacing one dispensible, useless system with another one. the way to get rid of borrowed power is by not having borrowed power. that's all there is to it.
people have been fine without them for the entirety of wow. legion was liked with it (maybe 'despite' is the more fitting term), and everything afterwards was hated. just. remove. it.
no replacements needed or even wanted.

[Candlewick]

the best solution to borrowed power is to not have borrowed power systems

It is but terrible players need carrots since challenging themselves is heresy.

[CalamityHeart]

Most of the ideas themselves aren't bad. I would probably draw the line at a racial talent tree, but the rest are alright.

I'm assuming that the intent is to supplement the game with more progression-like options that are adjacent to borrowed power, and not a solution that amounts to "Get rid of borrowed power -- Oh and by the way, here's some other unrelated stuff." If that were the case, I'd be less of a fan, because then this wouldn't really be a solution.