Remarks from former WoW designer gives insight on WoW's classes

[Teriz]

Ok yeah and the "original intent" was horde not having paladins. A dev AMA with kevin jordan who didnt work on the game since vanilla doesn't really have anything valuable when it comes to the current decision, thats what i meant.

In the current year wow shitting itself so much we gonna get cross-faction so they clearly prioritize gameplay/practicality nowadays and there is a new writer team since metzen and co. left that retconning and rewriting the whole cosmology every patch.



Are they gonna try to align it with the theme of the expansions or maybe a fan favorite? Sure, if they can fit that in. However i dont think, especially that fallout after 9.1, they gonna compromise gameplay/whats good for the game one bit for "lore" or "wc3 hero classes"

Well once again, I think the fact that we didn't get Dark Ranger OR Necromancer in an expansion that fit both of their themes and sorely needed a class to give players more of a connection to the setting, sort of shows that they are still following some sort of guidebook.

[Triceron]

Well once again, I think the fact that we didn't get Dark Ranger OR Necromancer in an expansion that fit both of their themes and sorely needed a class to give players more of a connection to the setting, sort of shows that they are still following some sort of guidebook.

I feel like that's a product of Ion's whole adherence to focusing on Raids, and doing the bare minimum to maintain class balance while adding just enough new systems to keep things 'fresh'.

Parasitic design has been the major feature of every expansion since he's taken over as Game Director. I really think that speaks more towards the reasons why we didn't get any class at all in Shadowlands, besides their explanation of 'classes not fitting the story/setting the way Demon Hunters did'.

[Teriz]

I feel like that's a product of Ion's whole adherence to focusing on Raids, and doing the bare minimum to maintain class balance while adding just enough new systems to keep things 'fresh'.

Parasitic design has been the major feature of every expansion since he's taken over as Game Director. I really think that speaks more towards the reasons why we didn't get any class at all in Shadowlands, besides their explanation of 'classes not fitting the story/setting the way Demon Hunters did'.

That's more of an opinion though. Balance has been an issue throughout the history of WoW even when Ion wasn't game director. Further, the classes were simplified because players (and designers) complained about too many necessary abilities that crowded their actionbars in WoD. Abilities were removed, and lo and behold, players then complained about that which they asked for.

We also shouldn't forget that Ion was game direction during Legion which introduced the Demon Hunter class.

Essentially the only logical reason for there not to be a Dark Ranger or Necromancer class in an expansion where a Dark Ranger is the focus of the story and the setting is so full of necromancy that each class gets a necromancer-style ability, is that Blizzard feels that both of those classes are in the class lineup already. Additionally, the lack of a death-based class that is completely removed from WC3 RTS period also shows an adherence to some sort of "rule" or "guideline".

[Ielenia]

"its powers were finally consumed by Illidan Stormrage. Although already consumed by Illidan, the skull still holds power and is in Illidan's possession."

"The skull's powers were eventually consumed by Illidan Stormrage who, upon absorbing its power, became half night elf and half demon. With his newfound power, he struck a major blow to the Legion by killing Tichondrius."

Alright, I concede on that.

It's Illidan we're talking about. The character upon which the class is based. He's way more important than other minor NPCs. If Illidan can, so does the Demon Hunter.

You do know VIP NPCs can do things others can't, right? Like Anduin wearing plate despite being a priest, Genn being a warrior despite wearing cloth, Tyrande wielding a bow despite being a priestess, etc. Also, the Lich King can steal the souls of those he kills into his blade, and we can't. The Lich King can imprison people in ice, while we can't.

And Demons aren't? (Burning Legion)

They're different demons with different rules. Also, we're talking about demon hunters. Demon hunters don't live under the same norms and rules as the demons.

I'm not talking about the Demon Hunter. I'm talking about the Demon form.

Who are one and the same.

How are they different? They're all asian.

... Are you saying that a guy who staggers drunkly while kicking is the exact same thing as "life energy"

There are heritage armors there and other who are shared across different classes. Go get me specific ones.

You just can't admit defeat, can you? You're grasping at the weakest straws to try to keep up this dumb argument of yours. If you cannot differentiate heritage armor from the rest, that's your problem, not mine.

ESPECIALLY SINCE THE HERITAGE ARMOR IS NAMED AFTER THE RACES MAKING IT EASY TO DISTINGUISH.

This won't get anywhere if you think the devs were trying to deceive us.

If you think they're trying to deceive us, that's your problem. The game is clearly ruled by the "rule of cool" considering I can wield swords made of fire still be able to cut things. That I can wield swords that are bigger than me and still be able to easily wield them one-handed. That I can have shoulderpads bigger than my character's head without a problem.

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Nothing in the actual concept actually changes. The concept of a Ranged, Spellcasting Demon Hunter is still very much a part of that Demon Hunter identity we see in WoW

"A ranged spellcasting spec is part of a melee fighter concept."

Amazing.

Simply amazing.

[Triceron]

"A ranged spellcasting spec is part of a melee fighter concept."

Amazing.

Simply amazing.

If we're talking about a Ranged spec, how does the identity that you're talking about change?

2 Melee specs and 1 Ranged spec would still be within the concept that you're talking about. A Spellcaster spec doesn't really change the concept at all.

Just like if we look at the Hunter, it has 2 Ranged specs and 1 Melee spec. You would still point at the Hunter as a Ranged class, wouldn't you?


Same with Paladins. They have a Healing spec which is technically considered Ranged. Yet the class as a whole? You would consider it Melee-focused, right?

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We also shouldn't forget that Ion was game direction during Legion which introduced the Demon Hunter class.

He was an associate game director in 2015, which was when Legion was already announced. He ended up taking up the full game director position when Chilton left at the end of 2016; around the same time that Legion launched.

Legion would have been years in development prior to Ion having been in any position to make major decisions, so he would have come on after the Demon Hunter had already been decided as a playable class.

[Ielenia]

If we're talking about a Ranged spec, how does the identity that you're talking about change?

2 Melee specs and 1 Ranged spec would still be within the concept that you're talking about. A Spellcaster spec doesn't really change the concept at all.

So demonology going from a demon summoner to an actual demon and then back to demon summoner is a change of identity of the spec.

But a concept exclusively melee suddenly gaining a ranged spellcaster spec is not a change of identity.

Damn.

Just like if we look at the Hunter, it has 2 Ranged specs and 1 Melee spec. You would still point at the Hunter as a Ranged class, wouldn't you?

Just because they share the word 'hunter' in their name doesn't make the two classes comparable.

Again: the hunter is a generic spec comprised of several different concepts put together, while the DH class is just one single concept.

[Triceron]

But a concept exclusively melee suddenly gaining a ranged spellcaster spec is not a change of identity.

Damn.

It's never been exclusively melee. Again, the WC3 Demon Hunter and the WoW depictions of Demon Hunters have both shown a mix of melee and ranged, not a singular exclusively melee playstyle. No matter what your excuse, Ranged combat has always been present, which means it's not exclusive. Otherwise, you are using the word exclusive wrong here in context. Perhaps you mean heavily melee-focused, of melee-centric. But exclusive? No, not as long as WC3 had ranged Metamorphosis and Illidan continued to display his spellcasting abilities.

And a new spec regardless of being melee or not would be a change to the Demon Hunter concept, because a Demon Hunter is already known to use spellcasting and ranged abilities. Adding a new spec ultimately changes the gameplay, because it's adding something new they never had; but not the concept of a Demon Hunter, because the concept has never actually excluded those possibilities. Think about that.

A Shaman that gets a 4th spec that allows them to Tank with Earth magic is not changing its concept. Conceptually, Earth magic is already associated with defense and tanking (Earth Shield, Earth Elemental), so the concept isn't changing. Having a full spec that represents the concept is merely adding new gameplay that never existed before.

Just because they share the word 'hunter' in their name doesn't make the two classes comparable.

Again: the hunter is a generic spec comprised of several different concepts put together, while the DH class is just one single concept.

A Hunter has never had melee spec in their identity though, and has always been depicted as ranged. How are you defining the Demon Hunter as exclusively melee when it been depicted in several different concepts with Ranged combat, but for the Hunter you are saying it's okay because there's no singular Hunter concept?

The DH is a singular concept that has been depicted with Ranged forms. The one single concept you are talking about has a history of them also having Ranged combat. You can't point at them being exclusively melee if there exists Ranged combat.

[username993720]

You do know VIP NPCs can do things others can't, right? Like Anduin wearing plate despite being a priest, Genn being a warrior despite wearing cloth, Tyrande wielding a bow despite being a priestess, etc.

All of that is armor, a cosmetic matter.
Genn is more of an Outlaw Rogue, with his pistol and cutlass, than a Warrior.
Tyrande isn't exactly a Priest. She's a Priestess of the Moon, a potentially different class.

Also, the Lich King can steal the souls of those he kills into his blade, and we can't. The Lich King can imprison people in ice, while we can't.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=70337/necrotic-plague
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Necrotic_Plague
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=68981/remorseless-winter
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Remorseless_Winter
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=69409/soul-reaper
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_Reaper
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=72762/defile
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Defile
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=69037/summon-valkyr
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Arbiter
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=71769/raise-dead
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rai...night_ability)

Would you look at that

They're different demons with different rules. Also, we're talking about demon hunters. Demon hunters don't live under the same norms and rules as the demons.

Night elves also differ from one another. Not all Night elves follow Elune.
Demon Hunters transform into a Demon - hence, why they should fight like one.

Who are one and the same.

Should a Druid fight the same way in human form and animal form?

... Are you saying that a guy who staggers drunkly while kicking is the exact same thing as "life energy"

Taken from asian myths and cultures. It's, literally, featuring an asian dragon as its patron deity and have Pandaren-based tea brewing.
Unless you got other sources to comfirm your claims, it's all drawn from the same source.

You just can't admit defeat, can you? You're grasping at the weakest straws to try to keep up this dumb argument of yours. If you cannot differentiate heritage armor from the rest, that's your problem, not mine.

ESPECIALLY SINCE THE HERITAGE ARMOR IS NAMED AFTER THE RACES MAKING IT EASY TO DISTINGUISH.

I can. I just don't have the power to go through pages and pages of class sets. You're the one who claimed they look like plate so you are the one who needs to provide the proof.

If you think they're trying to deceive us, that's your problem. The game is clearly ruled by the "rule of cool" considering I can wield swords made of fire still be able to cut things. That I can wield swords that are bigger than me and still be able to easily wield them one-handed. That I can have shoulderpads bigger than my character's head without a problem.

You're straying away from the topic. Do you, or do you not have any proof to your claim that they picked his armor to look like that because it's cool and nothing else?

[Teriz]

He was an associate game director in 2015, which was when Legion was already announced. He ended up taking up the full game director position when Chilton left at the end of 2016; around the same time that Legion launched.

Legion would have been years in development prior to Ion having been in any position to make major decisions, so he would have come on after the Demon Hunter had already been decided as a playable class.

Then I stand corrected. However, my point remains that there's nothing from Ion that demonstrates that he is antithetical to new class inclusion.

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You just said it yourself. You cannot use existing content to dismiss a class that hasn't been implemented yet.

Unless by all accounts the class has been implemented. Broken down to base level, Dark Rangers are simply undead Hunters that shoot shadow arrows right?

Wrong.
As we've seen before, the Demon Hunter was able to be placed in the Warlock and was dedicated an entire spec for it. Yet, it was pulled out if it to create a new one.

Not Demon Hunter, Metamorphosis. It is important to note though that metamorphosis was such a class defining ability that people never accepted it as a Warlock ability, but a DH ability within the Warlock class.

The Demon Hunter's melee attacks in WC3 were auto attacks only. His actual abilities were all spellcasting. So no, it didn't justify an entire class, as they could have simply given the Meta form a melee attack (with glaives as cosmetics).

Except all of the DH's abilities (except for Metamorphosis) augmented that melee auto-attack. In addition, DHs were extremely tanky once they reached max level, capable of plowing through hordes of enemies all by themselves. That sort of justifies a melee class.

You try to use the most race-specific class as a point in favor?
There are Night elven Dark Rangers, Venthyr Night Warrior, Lightforged Draenei Blademasters, Dark Wardens in the Horde, and Human Shadow Hunters.

Yeah, but what do any of those classes offer that can't be replicated in the existing class lineup? Give Hunters more shadow arrows. Give Warriors a Blademaster spec. Give Rogues Spirit of Vengeance. Give Shaman Big Bad Voodoo and Serpent Ward.

[Lmaop]

Well once again, I think the fact that we didn't get Dark Ranger OR Necromancer in an expansion that fit both of their themes and sorely needed a class to give players more of a connection to the setting, sort of shows that they are still following some sort of guidebook.

The absence of a coherent structure leads you to the conclusion that there is a structure?

Ok whatever, i know people were CONVINCED too we get a class every other expansion because "thas the rule" and than coped about why we didnt

You guys will come around to embrace reality in couple of months

[Teriz]

The absence of a coherent structure leads you to the conclusion that there is a structure?

Ok whatever, i know people were CONVINCED too we get a class every other expansion because "thas the rule" and than coped about why we didnt

You guys will come around to embrace reality in couple of months

The coherent structure is that Blizzard decided to base the WoW classes largely on the RTS heroes from WC3.

Again, every class introduced since Vanilla has reinforced that structure, and yes the lack of a new class in SL also supports the structure.

[Lmaop]

The coherent structure is that Blizzard decided to base the WoW classes largely on the RTS heroes from WC3.

Again, every class introduced since Vanilla has reinforced that structure, and yes the lack of a new class in SL also supports the structure.

Yep yep tinker next confirmed, peace and have fun in this thread

[Ielenia]

All of that is armor, a cosmetic matter.

So "armor" is now a cosmetic matter? Funny how "armor" matters when it supports your claims (Kael'thas) but suddenly it "doesn't matter" when it's an argument against your claims.

Genn is more of an Outlaw Rogue, with his pistol and cutlass, than a Warrior.
Tyrande isn't exactly a Priest. She's a Priestess of the Moon, a potentially different class.

These two lines of yours defeat each other. The first one uses Heroes of the Storm, a non-canon game, to talk about Genn's fighting style, while your second line ignores the fact that Hearthstone (another non-canon game) depicts Tyrande as a representative of the priest class.

Oh, and by the way? I can't think of a single instance of Genn utilizing his pistol or cutlass ever since being inflicted with the Worgen curse. It's always hand-to-hand combat with bare claws. This "cutlass and pistol" is, AFAIK, exclusive to the HotS game.

Would you look at that

Yeah, a bunch of meaningless links that in nothing have to do with what I wrote. Well, one of them does, if only tangential.

Night elves also differ from one another. Not all Night elves follow Elune.

The darnassian night elves (which the druids are part of) worship Elune.

Demon Hunters transform into a Demon - hence, why they should fight like one.

No. No, they shouldn't. Especially if they have better options, like their fighting skills.

Taken from asian myths and cultures. It's, literally, featuring an asian dragon as its patron deity and have Pandaren-based tea brewing.
Unless you got other sources to comfirm your claims, it's all drawn from the same source.

Is your definition of "source" being just "continent"? Because, by that logic, Disney and Cyperpunk have the same "source", because both originate from the US. You're taking different, separate concepts and claiming to be "one of the same" just because they come from the same regional area of the world.

I can. I just don't have the power to go through pages and pages of class sets.

Again, you're spewing excuses when the very first page provides plenty of examples.

You're straying awsy from the topic. Do you, or do you not have any proof to your claim that they picked his armor to look like that because it's cool and nothing else?

Sorry, that's not how it works. You made the claim that Kael'thas is wearing plate armor, and the sole argument to support your claim that you've put forth is "just look at it". Well, I've debunked your "just look at it" argument by pointing out how Blizzard utilizes the "rule of cool" in many of their graphical depictions, when I pointed out how many cloth sets look "plate-y" and how our characters can easily carry weapons bigger than them in one hand.

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A Hunter has never had melee spec in their identity though, and has always been depicted as ranged.

sigh.

How long are you going to keep using this debunked argument? Just because both classes have word 'hunter' in their name doesn't mean they're anything alike. The hunter class is a mish-mash of several separate concepts together. It doesn't represent one, singular concept, like the demon hunter.

How are you defining the Demon Hunter as exclusively melee when it been depicted in several different concepts with Ranged combat, but for the Hunter you are saying it's okay because there's no singular Hunter concept?

"Several different concepts with ranged combat". Three. Two of them being characters who have been possessed and controlled by their inner demon, and the other's "caster form" is just spamming a single ability, not to mention the character also has a background in being a powerful sorcerer.

[username993720]

Unless by all accounts the class has been implemented. Broken down to base level, Dark Rangers are simply undead Hunters that shoot shadow arrows right?

Nope. Catch up, will ya? We're not in 2003 any more.

Not Demon Hunter, Metamorphosis. It is important to note though that metamorphosis was such a class defining ability that people never accepted it as a Warlock ability, but a DH ability within the Warlock class.

Bullshit. There are other Ultimate abilities in other classes. The Blademater's Bladestorm in the Warrior & the Priestess of the Moon's Starfall in the Druid. If you claim the Ultimate abilities are too class defining to be in another class, you basically justify the addition of these 2.

Except all of the DH's abilities (except for Metamorphosis) augmented that melee auto-attack.

No, they didn't:

Mana Burn
Sends a bolt of negative energy that burns a target enemy unit's mana. Burned mana combusts, dealing damage to the target equal to the amount of mana burned.

Immolation
Engulfs the Demon Hunter in flames, causing damage to nearby enemy land units. Drains mana until deactivated.

Evasion
Gives the Demon Hunter a chance to avoid attacks.

In addition, DHs were extremely tanky once they reached max level, capable of plowing through hordes of enemies all by themselves. That sort of justifies a melee class.

No, it doesn't. The Warlock's Metamorphosis did so too:

Metamorphosis
Demon abilities unlocked.
Armor increased by 250%.

Dark Apotheosis
Physical damage taken reduced by 10%.
Magical damage taken reduced by 15%.
Threat increased by 500%.

It was so much so that Demonology was considered sort of a tanking spec.

Yeah, but what do any of those classes offer that can't be replicated in the existing class lineup? Give Hunters more shadow arrows. Give Warriors a Blademaster spec. Give Rogues Spirit of Vengeance. Give Shaman Big Bad Voodoo and Serpent Ward.

That's not how it operates. What could Demon Hunters provide when Warlocks had Metamorphosis? Back then, when we didn't have Demon Hunters, the answer would have been "very little". Aside from melee attacks, it would not have provided much in terms of differentiation from the warlock (talking from way-back-then perspective). Yet, it was added still, despite the skepticism. If you wanna know how it works, Blizzard - according to their pattern - adds classes (from the Warcraft III Hero unit roster) that are misrepresented in the game. In that case, it is the Dark Ranger, the Warden, the Priestess of the Moon, the Blademaster, the Shadow Hunter, the Alchemist and the you-know-who.

So "armor" is now a cosmetic matter? Funny how "armor" matters when it supports your claims (Kael'thas) but suddenly it "doesn't matter" when it's an argument against your claims.

You're the one who claimed Mages can't wear plate in lore. It doesn't matter in the end as Kael'thas is still a fire Mage (Blood Mage). Same thing with Anduin. He's still a Priest.

These two lines of yours defeat each other. The first one uses Heroes of the Storm, a non-canon game, to talk about Genn's fighting style, while your second line ignores the fact that Hearthstone (another non-canon game) depicts Tyrande as a representative of the priest class.

"handguns seem to be somewhat rare in the Warcraft-universe, although numerous characters in the lore have made use of handguns, and they seem far more common among Gilneans than the rest of Azeroth. Characters that have used handguns in the lore include Jerias Bloodvein, Vincent Godfrey, Genn Greymane and Halford Ramsey."

They have to fit character into a certain class bracket in Hearthstone. That's why N'zoth is a Warlock, despite being an Old God; Kel'thuzad a Mage, despite being a Lich; Ragnaros is a Shaman, despite being a Fire Elemental; Lady Vashj is a Shaman, despite wielding a bow; and so on.

Oh, and by the way? I can't think of a single instance of Genn utilizing his pistol or cutlass ever since being inflicted with the Worgen curse. It's always hand-to-hand combat with bare claws. This "cutlass and pistol" is, AFAIK, exclusive to the HotS game.

It isn't. It's a staple of Gilnean culture. Meanwhile, that's the whole point of Worgen form - clawing and biting. Unfortunately, it isn't represented in the in-game Worgen form.

Yeah, a bunch of meaningless links that in nothing have to do with what I wrote. Well, one of them does, if only tangential.

Shows you how we get the characters' abilities. All of these Arthas abilities were translated into the playable Death Knight. Expect the same with Illidan.

The darnassian night elves (which the druids are part of) worship Elune.

Do Night elf Demon Hunters worship Elune? The Shen'dralar Mages? Yea... if you generalize everyone, then so are Demons.

No. No, they shouldn't. Especially if they have better options, like their fighting skills.

Except, this was nullified by the fact that they abandon their fighting style with Vengeance form.

Is your definition of "source" being just "continent"? Because, by that logic, Disney and Cyperpunk have the same "source", because both originate from the US. You're taking different, separate concepts and claiming to be "one of the same" just because they come from the same regional area of the world.

It's called asian myth and culture. In the end, they are all related to the Pandaren. Is brewing and Nizuao related to the Pandaren? Yes. Are mists, teas and Yu'lon related to the Pandaren? Yes. Are martial arts and Xu'en related to the Pandaren? Yes. Do they all have Asian-Pandaren aesthetics? Yep.










If you insist on different sources, then provide them.

Again, you're spewing excuses when the very first page provides plenty of examples.

It doesn't. Otherwise, you would have linked them by now.

Sorry, that's not how it works. You made the claim that Kael'thas is wearing plate armor, and the sole argument to support your claim that you've put forth is "just look at it". Well, I've debunked your "just look at it" argument by pointing out how Blizzard utilizes the "rule of cool" in many of their graphical depictions, when I pointed out how many cloth sets look "plate-y"

You claim that. You haven't shown proof yet.

[Rusken]

Imagine for example the spec being able to "tame" (really control) wild demonic pets and like the Hunter class, gaining specific abilities from them, and like Warlocks being able to sacrifice them and gain buffs. Not to mention of course a new ranged spec that can use bows and guns.

I think players would love that.

I think you'd be wrong on that. People like DH's because it's fun to double jump and zip around, they don't want to play a DH to sit in one spot and shoot a bow. They'd play a real Hunter if they did.

[Ielenia]

You're the one who claimed Mages can't wear plate in lore. It doesn't matter in the end as Kael'thas is still a fire Mage (Blood Mage). Same thing with Anduin. He's still a Priest.

I'm claiming we haven't seen mages wearing anything other than cloth armor. Look at the Mage Order Hall in Legion: can you count how many of them are wearing plate?

"handguns seem to be somewhat rare in the Warcraft-universe, although numerous characters in the lore have made use of handguns, and they seem far more common among Gilneans than the rest of Azeroth. Characters that have used handguns in the lore include Jerias Bloodvein, Vincent Godfrey, Genn Greymane and Halford Ramsey."

Now show me him actually using those. Because in the Broken Shore cinematic, he's hacking and slashing with his claws only. In the cinematic in Stormheim, he's fighting with his claws only. In the BfA opening cinematic, we see him fighting with his claws only.

Shows you how we get the characters' abilities. All of these Arthas abilities were translated into the playable Death Knight. Expect the same with Illidan.

Except the two ones I mentioned. Fancy that.

Do Night elf Demon Hunters worship Elune? The Shen'dralar Mages? Yea... if you generalize everyone, then so are Demons.

I say: "The Darnassian night elves worship Elune, and the druids are darnassian night elves."
You reply with: "But what about the non-darnassian!?!?"

Dude, please stop embarrassing yourself. We're talking about the darnassian night elves. What you're doing is akin to me saying "the Stormwind humans follow the Holy Light church" and you reply with "but what about the Kul'Tiran humans!?" when we're talking specifically about the Stormwind humans.

Except, this was nullified by the fact that they abandon their fighting style with Vengeance form.

They still remain melee, don't they? And I've already offered a possible explanation about their hands becoming too big to hold onto the glaives.

It's called asian myth and culture.

It's called different asian myth and cultures. Again, you're making them all "the exact same thing" just because they come from eastern Asia.

It doesn't. Otherwise, you would have linked them by now.

WHICH I ALREADY DID when I linked the WoWhead transmog set list to you. You're the one refusing to look at the evidence.

You claim that. You haven't shown proof yet.

Again: says the guy whose only evidence for his claim is "look at it".

[Teriz]

Bullshit. There are other Ultimate abilities in other classes. The Blademater's Bladestorm in the Warrior & the Priestess of the Moon's Starfall in the Druid. If you claim the Ultimate abilities are too class defining to be in another class, you basically justify the addition of these 2.

Here's the difference; At the core, what makes a Blademaster what it is as a concept? Is it the illusions, or is it an orc fighting expertly with a 2H weapon? I'm leaning towards the latter. However, if you disagree, feel free to create a Blademaster class concept. I have a feeling that when you do, you'll see how it simply runs too close to the existing Warrior class.

As for Priestess of the Moon, that concept is clearly divided in three ways; Priest in concept, and Hunter and Druid in abilities. You would need to find a way to decouple Starfall from Druids and also create a bow-based class that doesn't play exactly like the Hunter class. I don't think it can be done, and partially explains why we never got a Dark Ranger class, and why Survival went melee; Physical ranged is highly limiting gameplay wise in WoW.

It's also far too race and gender-specific, so frankly it is not a contender.

Demon Hunters did have two main concepts that allowed it to wedge some design space; Demonic melee and the ability to turn into a demon. Despite similarities to Rogues and Warriors, those two classes were NEVER going to get demonic magic. Warriors could in fact get a Windwalk or Mirror Image ability at some point, since it's based on skill and speed and not magic. As for Metamorphosis vs Bladestorm and Starfall, Blizzard even used the excuse that since Demonology was meant to be a summoner spec, they could remove metamorphosis completely from Warlocks. You're going to have a much harder time pulling Bladestorm from Warriors and Starfall away from Druids.

No, they didn't:

Mana Burn
Sends a bolt of negative energy that burns a target enemy unit's mana. Burned mana combusts, dealing damage to the target equal to the amount of mana burned.

Immolation
Engulfs the Demon Hunter in flames, causing damage to nearby enemy land units. Drains mana until deactivated.

Evasion
Gives the Demon Hunter a chance to avoid attacks.

Yes, you used mana burn to either destroy the mana of an approaching opponent, or to finish off a fleeing opponent. Again, it supports a melee fighter.

I really don't feel that Immolation and Evasion need an explanation as to how they benefit a melee fighter.

No, it doesn't. The Warlock's Metamorphosis did so too:

Metamorphosis
Demon abilities unlocked.
Armor increased by 250%.

Dark Apotheosis
Physical damage taken reduced by 10%.
Magical damage taken reduced by 15%.
Threat increased by 500%.

It was so much so that Demonology was considered sort of a tanking spec.

I was talking about the Demon Hunter being tanky WITHOUT using metamorphosis. A Demon Hunter twirling their blades engulfed in immolation was extremely tanky and capable of plowing through hordes of enemies. You only really used Metamorphosis if your DH was about to die, or you needed to destroy some buildings. Max-level Evasion made the DH damn near unkillable.

That's not how it operates. What could Demon Hunters provide when Warlocks had Metamorphosis? Back then, when we didn't have Demon Hunters, the answer would have been "very little". Aside from melee attacks, it would not have provided much in terms of differentiation from the warlock (talking from way-back-then perspective). Yet, it was added still, despite the skepticism. If you wanna know how it works, Blizzard - according to their pattern - adds classes (from the Warcraft III Hero unit roster) that are misrepresented in the game. In that case, it is the Dark Ranger, the Warden, the Priestess of the Moon, the Blademaster, and the Shadow Hunter

Not Warlocks, Rogues. Without Metamorphosis, there wasn't much of a difference between a Rogue and a DH. Metamorphosis gives DHs that added layer of differentiation. Again, Warlocks were NEVER going to get DW-based melee, so there would always be a huge difference between those concepts, which gave DHs a small space to carve out a class.

The concepts you mention simply don't have that space. Again, take Wardens for example; What makes them any different than Rogues outside of your perception that they wear plate? The core of Warden gameplay in WC3 was poison blades and shadow abilities, which is pretty much the core of the Rogue class.

In closing, consider which makes more sense for the devs;
Creating a Blademaster class, or simply turning Arms into the Blademaster spec?
Creating a Warden class, or simply giving Sublety Rogues Spirit of Vengeance and the WC3 version of Shadow Strike?
Creating a Dark Ranger class, or simply giving Forsaken an undead elf option and giving MM Hunters Black and Wailing Arrow as talents?
Creating a Shadow Hunter class, or simply giving Shaman Big Bad Voodoo and restoring Searing Totem as Serpent Ward?
Creating a Priestess of the Moon class, or simply giving Hunters a Searing Arrow and restoring Sentinel as talents?



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I think you'd be wrong on that. People like DH's because it's fun to double jump and zip around, they don't want to play a DH to sit in one spot and shoot a bow. They'd play a real Hunter if they did.

Well imagine double jumping and zipping around while shooting arrows?

[username993720]

I'm claiming we haven't seen mages wearing anything other than cloth armor. Look at the Mage Order Hall in Legion: can you count how many of them are wearing plate?

I just showed you with Kael'thas.

Now show me him actually using those. Because in the Broken Shore cinematic, he's hacking and slashing with his claws only. In the cinematic in Stormheim, he's fighting with his claws only. In the BfA opening cinematic, we see him fighting with his claws only.

All in Worgen form. You see the problem?

Except the two ones I mentioned. Fancy that.

Well, we weren't the Lich King. We didn't wear the Helm of Domination and the original Frostmourne. We can't be exactly like him. Don't be greedy. But, it is possible - shown by the various other abilities. So, stop being petty about two abilities (actually, when i think about it, we actually had them):

Soul Reaper - Reap = "cut or gather".

Frozen Center
Level 57 Frost death knight PvP talent
Passive
Your Remorseless Winter also freezes all targets within 5 yards, rooting them in place for 4 sec when cast.

I say: "The Darnassian night elves worship Elune, and the druids are darnassian night elves."
You reply with: "But what about the non-darnassian!?!?"

Dude, please stop embarrassing yourself. We're talking about the darnassian night elves. What you're doing is akin to me saying "the Stormwind humans follow the Holy Light church" and you reply with "but what about the Kul'Tiran humans!?" when we're talking specifically about the Stormwind humans.

What the hell are you talking about? Come Cataclysm, the Highborne are part of the Darnassian society, and come Legion, Demon Hunters are no longer shunned. So, i ask again - do all Night elves follow Elune?

They still remain melee, don't they? And I've already offered a possible explanation about their hands becoming too big to hold onto the glaives.

That's not illidari fighting tactics. You say they can't fight like demons because they fight like Illidari. This case shows you otherewise. So, it doesn't matter if their hands are actually too big - they don't use illidari fighting skills like you claim they do. Hence, why they can utilize other demonic fighting skills, like casting.
Besides, that Illidan growing big example shows him casting spells, so you kinda shot yourself in the leg there.

It's called different asian myth and cultures. Again, you're making them all "the exact same thing" just because they come from eastern Asia.

And i ask again, for the thousandth time, show me the different sources.
Not that it matters much, because non of them apply to other races or cultures in game - no matter how you try to contort it.

WHICH I ALREADY DID when I linked the WoWhead transmog set list to you. You're the one refusing to look at the evidence.

Specific ones. Don't let me read a book if i'm only looking for a paragraph.

Again: says the guy whose only evidence for his claim is "look at it".

More based in reality than yours.

Here's the difference; At the core, what makes a Blademaster what it is as a concept? Is it the illusions, or is it an orc fighting expertly with a 2H weapon? I'm leaning towards the latter. However, if you disagree, feel free to create a Blademaster class concept. I have a feeling that when you do, you'll see how it simply runs too close to the existing Warrior class.

I already did. And, it doesn't. A Warrior plays nothing like a Samurai.

As for Priestess of the Moon, that concept is clearly divided in three ways; Priest in concept, and Hunter and Druid in abilities. You would need to find a way to decouple Starfall from Druids and also create a bow-based class that doesn't play exactly like the Hunter class. I don't think it can be done, and partially explains why we never got a Dark Ranger class, and why Survival went melee; Physical ranged is highly limiting gameplay wise in WoW.

1. They can come up with another ability for a new class, like how they made blur and Immolation Aura for Demon Hunters instead of taking Evasion and Immolation from the Rogue and Warlock.
2. You haven't paid attention, have you? They're now pushing for a glaive-wielding Night Warrior, with bows being a secondary aspect. You're still stuck in the past, like with the Dark Ranger.

It's also far too race and gender-specific, so frankly it is not a contender.

First of all, gender is not restricted in WoW. Male Night elves can be Priest and female Night elves can be Druids. So, you know it's bullshit. But, you still spew it out.
Secondly, it's like saying Monk or Demon Hunter are too race specific by definition. You, once again, lack vision. Anyone who potentially follows Elune can be one. The Worgen, the Mag'har Orc and the Zandalari Troll.

Demon Hunters did have two main concepts that allowed it to wedge some design space; Demonic melee and the ability to turn into a demon.

You forget that Warlocks could already do that.

Despite similarities to Rogues and Warriors, those two classes were NEVER going to get demonic magic.

No, but Warlocks could. And they did.

Warriors could in fact get a Windwalk or Mirror Image ability at some point, since it's based on skill and speed and not magic.

Is it? Mirror Image is an Arcane spell in WoW.
"One of the blademasters' more mystical abilities is to create duplicate phantom images of themselves. Though the phantom images can move about freely of their own volition, they are not true entities unto themselves."

Phantom - a ghost.
Mystical - relating to mystics or religious mysticism.

"So adept and agile are the blademasters that they can move so quickly that they appear to be invisible to the naked eye" - does not apply to the Warrior, but more to a Rogue.

As for Metamorphosis vs Bladestorm and Starfall, Blizzard even used the excuse that since Demonology was meant to be a summoner spec, they could remove metamorphosis completely from Warlocks. You're going to have a much harder time pulling Bladestorm from Warriors and Starfall away from Druids.

1. No, i'm not. They're not crucial to the classes.
2. They could come up with new ones, like i showed you.

Yes, you used mana burn to either destroy the mana of an approaching opponent, or to finish off a fleeing opponent. Again, it supports a melee fighter.

I really don't feel that Immolation and Evasion need an explanation as to how they benefit a melee fighter.

You said it augmented their physical abilities. They don't. The descriptions show so. If you're going to lie, i'll have to resort to other measures.

I was talking about the Demon Hunter being tanky WITHOUT using metamorphosis. A Demon Hunter twirling their blades engulfed in immolation was extremely tanky and capable of plowing through hordes of enemies. You only really used Metamorphosis if your DH was about to die, or you needed to destroy some buildings. Max-level Evasion made the DH damn near unkillable.

Is that so?
Because Metamorphosis is the only ability that increases HP. So, if you're gonna use lousy arguments like these, which justify a unit like the Mountain King becoming playable, then i'll have to notify someone of this dishonesty.

Not Warlocks, Rogues. Without Metamorphosis, there wasn't much of a difference between a Rogue and a DH.

Uhmm... fel magic? Spellcasting like Mana Burn and Immolation?

Metamorphosis gives DHs that added layer of differentiation. Again, Warlocks were NEVER going to get DW-based melee, so there would always be a huge difference between those concepts, which gave DHs a small space to carve out a class.

Metamorphosis never gave DHs melee-based attacks. You're confusing the base unit with the demon form. In that regard, Warlocks depicted Metamorphosis perfectly. And, as you said, melee only, they would be too similar to Rogues. So, if we're basing it on Warlocks' incapability of auto-melee attacking with glaives, that's not much of a justification for a new class (as you yourself said). So, in the end, it all came down to Metamorphosis, which the Warlock version depicted perfectly fine - staying true to the source material of granting ranged attack. So, if you think about it, you had no arguments for a playable Demon Hunter.

The concepts you mention simply don't have that space. Again, take Wardens for example; What makes them any different than Rogues outside of your perception that they wear plate?

My perception? What is it with you and lelenia? Do you all need glasses?

Jesus christ... i feel like i'm the only one with healthy sight.
That, the Umbra Crescent and the jailing theme - which, the Rogue does not fullfill.

The core of Warden gameplay in WC3 was poison blades and shadow abilities, which is pretty much the core of the Rogue class.

Again, you're stuck in 2003.
For a more modern and poison-less version, go see HotS.

[Teriz]

I already did. And, it doesn't. A Warrior plays nothing like a Samurai.

What exactly does a Samurai play like in WoW?

1. They can come up with another ability for a new class, like how they made blur and Immolation Aura for Demon Hunters instead of taking Evasion and Immolation from the Rogue and Warlock.
2. You haven't paid attention, have you? They're now pushing for a glaive-wielding Night Warrior, with bows being a secondary aspect. You're still stuck in the past, like with the Dark Ranger.

Immolation from Warlock wasn't similar to the WC3 abilities. As for Evasion, it was just a dodge ability, easy to replicate (see Monks and Druids who also possess dodge abilities).

I would also disagree that they're "pushing" for a Night Warrior. It would appear that Tyrande is going to lose the ability at the end of this expansion (if she hadn't already) and Blizzard never defined exactly what a Night Warrior could do. One hallmark of Blizzard expansion classes is that their abilities are well telegraphed ahead of time.

Stupidest claim i've ever heard. But, i'm not surprised you're making it.
First of all, gender is not restricted in WoW. Male Night elves can be Priest and female Night elves can be Druids. So, you know it's bullshit. But, you still spew it out.

The concept is called Priestess of the Moon, thus the very concept embodies gender. That's a bit different than the Druid situation.

Secondly, it's like saying Monk or Demon Hunter are too race specific by definition. You, once again, lack vision. Anyone who potentially follows Elune can be one. The Worgen, the Mag'har Orc and the Zandalari Troll. But, again, i'm not surprised of your demagogy.

You're thinking of Brewmaster, which initially was confined to the Pandaren. Monk in Warcraft was never race confined. In fact, we had human, undead, blood elf, draenei, and Gnome monks before MoP.

As for Demon Hunters, we saw examples of Blood Elf Demon Hunters in TBC, long before Demon Hunters appeared as a class. I have yet to see a non-NE Warden for example that clearly mirrors Maiev.

You forget that Warlocks could already do that.
No, but Warlocks could. And they did.

Uh Warlocks were never DW melee fighters.

Is it? Mirror Image is an Arcane spell in WoW.
"One of the blademasters' more mystical abilities is to create duplicate phantom images of themselves. Though the phantom images can move about freely of their own volition, they are not true entities unto themselves."

"So adept and agile are the blademasters that they can move so quickly that they appear to be invisible to the naked eye" - does not apply to the Warrior, but more to a Rogue.

It's an arcane spell because it was given to Mages. The lore behind Blademasters is (as you stated) that they move so quickly that it appears that they're invisible, or that you're facing multiple opponents. I'm not sure how much HotS has gone beyond that initial concept, but that's what it is when you get down to it; A Warrior who simply moves very fast. Again, quite easy to incorporate into the existing Warrior class as a spec.

You said it augmented their physical abilities.

No, I said it augmented their melee auto-attack. In other words, their abilities made them more formidable melee fighters.

Is that so?
Because Metamorphosis is the only ability that increases HP. So, if you're gonna use lousy arguments like these, which justify a unit like the Mountain King becoming playable, then i'll have to notify someone of this dishonesty.

No, Avatar also increased HP, as did a few other abilities. Why would you need to make a Mountain King class when Warrior houses the concept just fine?

Uhmm... fel magic? Spellcasting like Mana Burn and Immolation?

And Rogues had Shadow magic. My point is that gameplay wise there really wasn't much difference. Metamorphosis is what gave DHs a significant difference from the Rogue class.

Metamorphosis never gave DHs melee-based attacks.

I never said it did.

My perception? What is it with you and lelenia? Do you all need glasses?
Jesus christ... i feel like i'm the only one with healthy sight.
That, the Umbra Crescent and the jailing theme - which, the Rogue does not fullfill.

Neither of those justify a new class. For example, how would a "jailing theme" even work? You would CC an enemy permanently instead of just killing it?

Again, you're stuck in 2003.
For a more modern and poison-less version, go see HotS.

Yes, and the HotS version is a shadow-based assassin. Again, it fits right into Sublety Rogue. Just give Rogues Spirit of Vengeance (heck, you can even give them a shadow disk to throw around) and we're all set.

[Ielenia]

I just showed you with Kael'thas.

No, you have not. Your argument of "I think it looks plate" is invalid because it's just anecdotal evidence. By your own logic, you'd swear upon your family's name that this plastic ping-pong ball painted in chrome is an honest-to-god metal ball. I've shown you how your argument fails.

All in Worgen form. You see the problem?

They only fight in worgen form. Some don't even switch back to human even when they're not fighting.

Well, we weren't the Lich King.

But somehow "we are Illidan"? Double-standards much?

What the hell are you talking about? Come Cataclysm, the Highborne are part of the Darnassian society, and come Legion, Demon Hunters are no longer shunned. So, i ask again - do all Night elves follow Elune?

They're still shunned. Also, we don't know which deity the Shen'dralar elves and the demon hunter worship, if any. They might worship Elune, they might not.

That's not illidari fighting tactics.

They're fighting in melee, still utilizing the same exact tactics they did while wielding warglaives.

And i ask again, for the thousandth time, show me the different sources.

I already have. I've mentioned the 'drunken kung fu' and the 'chi' concepts which are unique and separate from each other.

Specific ones. Don't let me read a book if i'm only looking for a paragraph.

I've already did so. The link I gave you is full of different, specific examples on the first page alone. If you're either incapable of sifting through it, or unwilling to, that is your problem. It's a sign of your unwillingness to debate with evidence. The book analogy fails because the moment you open the link, you're face-to-face with the evidence. I'm not giving you a truck-load of marbles and saying "somewhere in there, there's a coin. Find it". You just need to take your pick from the overwhelming amount of evidence in that link that is staring you right in the face.

More based in reality than yours.

"Based in reality"? You seem to have a different definition of "reality" than the rest of the world. I can actually prove the "rule of cool" exists in WoW, and I did so by showing examples where it applies. You? "It looks plate to me!"