When did WoW convince itself Raiding is the only thing that's important?

[PaladinBash]

Lol @ Mage Tower being brought up. The big reason that shit flopped was that the easiest and best way to do it was to farm very outdated and very specific pieces of gear that the absolute majority of people wouldn't have already and have bothered with, effectively forcing them to do trivial things for a transmog. What was the result? "This shit isn't worth it" and "this is overtuned", exactly the kind of reaction raiding would get if you got no gear progression through it. You know why nobody does keys over 15? Same reason.

[Glorious Leader]

Casual and challenge are not counters to each other. This is a myth. Casual is simply a reflection of time commitment. You can have challenging content that doesn't require significant time commitment. That's casual challenge.

this is also incorrect. Casual is a level of commitment.
Difficult content warrants more commitment and is not casual.

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Many problems solved if that solution were to be used generally. Many fiddly systems and currencies would go away. Game would be much cleaner in that respect and players wouldn't need to consult lengthy tomes to figure out what they need to do to get X and Y. Run the content you like most at the difficulty level that is best for you and collect more/less of your currency based on that. Then go shopping at a gear vendor.

It seems so simple and direct. Oh wait, it is.

Pretty much. One goal. many avenues.

[Mojo03]

Yep, issue is most people seem to only care about gear as a progress system. Gear is like 1/10th my progress in wow...Im Ilvl 240 now, and never thought it was better than when I was 220 really.

I mean, power progression is vastly what they incentivize and continue to provide the bulk of the content towards.

So of course it’s what’s most people care about.

Beyond power progression there is collecting and achievements, which are fairly shallow in their current states and mostly for niche audiences.

Shallow not in quantity of things in those systems, but in quality of things in those systems.

[Clone]

It happened in vanilla WoW. Some of the main developers were big time EQ players and basically made WoW into the game they wanted to play.

[Jastall]

Arena rewards were actually pretty solid for PvE as well, the Offpieces for Honor were also quite solid for a few spec.

For the T4 equivalent items, you didn't have to raid at all, all you needed was Primal Nether.

Only the T5 Items were kinda iffy due to Nether Vortex being BoP, but the remaining pieces were effectively BoE because the items themselves were BoE or the materials that dropped from raids were BoP.

But you could certainly craft yourself pretty solid items without ever entering a raid or optionally, buy them off the AH.

Reps also gave some solid items that were actually BiS in T4, especially the weapons were sought after.

And calling dungeons a "stepping stone" is also disengenous, by that logic, pretty anything can be considered a stepping stone towards raiding.
Heroics still gave you some good items and Badges were also decent.

I'm not saying you could get BiS without ever setting foot in a raid, but options were certainly there.

Due to the raids being extremely easy by modern standards, you can obviously pass on quite a few things and just raidlog.

I will also point out that quite a few people simply knocked out these things pretty early because there is no timegating involved.
I also got the Rep done within the first two weeks in TBC and then started raidlogging, because the game allowed me to do this.

There is nothing wrong raidlogging itself.

I'm saying this is wrong, but i am pointing out that these elements actually got smaller or entirely vanished out of the progression loop from WoW and used to be more relevant.

Raidlogging isn't a bad thing in and of itself if people choose to do so. It's usually the mode I enter after a couple months of the patch (well, raid and M+logging). It's bad if people feel it's the only thing they can feasibly do to progress, ala WoD. Mists mitigated this with the Valor grind which wasn't perfect but was at least there.

The progression loop now has more options than ever. World content gets you full Normal gear (at the most glacial of paces which is stupid but it does). PvP gear is good in PvE and the best in PvP. Dungeon gear is up there with the best of raiding, AND there's the Great Vault that rewards doing varied activities with better chances at better loot the more you do. I'm not saying the overall system has no issues, but I cannot fathom how anyone can look at Shadowlands's setup and go "guess I'm forced to raid if I want good gear". That's only if you want THE BiS raiding gear, which is normal to me. Hell for the last 3 expansions the loudest complaints were about the stuff people had or felt they had to do outside of raids to increase their power. Raid or die has been completely dead since WoD.

The only thing that was diminished is professions, and even then SL made them come back with legendary crafting. Maybe it'll be a fixture onwards, maybe not.

[Elbob]

The opposite of casual is not hardcore. Hardcore is a mentality, not a time measured approach to the game. For the sake of argument, the opposite of casual would be committed. So you can be casual-hardcore and committed-hardcore.

Yes, time is a tool only used for measurement, and casual vs committed is only a descriptor for that measurement. The problem with the definitions that you and others subscribe, is that too many "casuals" would have skill levels higher than you claim they are, and ergo would destroy your more mindset / gameplay focused definition of casual. So it doesn't work. When we define casual only by the amount of time he/she puts in, it holds up to any and all scrutiny.

As for what that amount of time constitutes, it does differ to each and every person, which is why i cannot give you an exact definition. I could say, for example, that three hours a week is the cap for casual, but then someone else may define casual as one hour a week at most. Given that this is not an objective argument, debating which one is more right is ultimately pointless.

tl;dr: The only definition of casual that holds up to all scrutiny is when it is defined as a measurement of time played.

jim bob plays wow for 80 hours a week and calls himself a casual. Jim Bob has 78 siblings that also play wow but each one plays it for 1 less hour per week than the previous. How many of them are casual? How many are "committed"? None of them work or have any obligations outside of playing world of warcraft? Under your definition since its up to the player, some one that plays 24/7 can claim casual status because your definition means nothing without being able to apply value or a formula to determine outcome when using a measurement tool. If you are using a measurement tool to determine a status you need to give an example as to how that measurement system determines that outcome.

What is the exact number of hours YOU would need to play to become non casual. If you can't even give me that your measurement system is useless.

Edit for the bolded section: my definition does not include skill in any form in fact I even stated the the opposite

[Kralljin]

The progression loop now has more options than ever.

A massive issue with the (modern) gearing system however is that it basically neuters any other path, because all gear is effectively the same.
Due to that, once you're deep enough into one game mode, you can effectively pass on the any other.


That's the difference to something like Vanilla or TBC, because while other paths have fewer options, the items presented within those alternatives often stand out.
For example, The exalted (melee) Ring from Lower City is effectively BiS during T4 for almost every melee (it's also still a solid Ring in T5), so while Reputations don't deck out you with an entire set of gear, they still provided very good items if you wanted to go after them.

Similiar thing goes for other Items, lots of the craftable items have been or are still BiS.
PvP gear also not being fully rating restricted also gives some avenue for less skilled players to acquire PvP gear, albeit a lot a slower pace to fill out some slots.

While you cannot deck yourself in TBC if you choose only one specific path such as professions or reputations, every path has a few high value items that makes them worth pursuing, whereas in the modern game, once you've mastered one mode (or unable to breach a given breaking point based on skill), you're done.

The only thing that was diminished is professions, and even then SL made them come back with legendary crafting. Maybe it'll be a fixture onwards, maybe not.

Tell when was the last time an actual reputation faction sold an item that was relevant to your character's progression and made you grind rep with that specific faction.
Not something like an essence in BfA, but an actual equipable item that also had alternative options like any other.

[Kyriani]

The Mage Tower wasn't intended to make people better players. It was the exact thing many players had been asking for up to the point they added it: Challenging single player content. The fact that it made many players contend with the realization that maybe they aren't nearly at good at the game as I'm sure they thought they were is an unfortunate side effect; I doubt strongly that a lot of people quit because of it though.

I wouldn't expect the mage tower to be the sole reason people have quit, but I would not be surprised if it was the final straw that made at least a few people unsub. Or like me, the mage tower as is, was not an enticing reason to resub. I'm not interested in "challenging" content. I am interested in "entertaining" content. And while some may find entertainment in challenge, I am not one of those people.

When content is too difficult, or too time consuming for me to engage with successfully, and serves only to waste my time as I beat my head against a wall, then it might as well not exist for me and those like me. And when there is no content I want to engage with, that feels worth engaging with, but doesn't feel obligatory, then there's little reason for me to pay for a sub.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Do you think it is reasonable to compare BiS gear with sockets? Seriously? By the way, the reps used to lead to things like more sockets as well as the actual gear.

when it comes to something to progress towards of course. While they might not be as powerful they are still top end things both high and low end players would want.

It is high difficulty content for people who want to push themselves for a challenge. You can't queue for it. You have to go with organized groups. That's not what casual means.

most of mythic+ isn’t high difficulty arguably only the top few lvls of rewards fall into that.

And I gotta also reject that Casual means you only do que able content, joining a -10 or so every once in awhile is absolutely causal.

It is flatly irrational to insist that the same amount of content organized slightly differently is some mega-shift in resources

No it’s flatly irrational to think adding in questing hubs dedicated daily areas quest text ect is just a re origination.

Explain to me what the source of "rage" would be? We shouldn't make the game better for the vast majority of players because it might hurt some tryhard's feelings that someone else is having fun in a way that impacts them zero percent?

People would rage at what ever the new low end content they needed to farm to maximize gains.

People would rage that people doing easy content could get the best gear.

People would rage at the changes to balance high end gear easily assessable would cause.

People would rage at high end content giving more, even if not optimal for farming.

Ect.

In a different game doing this from the start there wouldn’t be an issue but it would be a massive shift for wow and people would flip out about it just like they did with with things like AP or legion legendary's.

[Wries]

The correct answer is Wrath. It quickly evolved into a raid-logging expansion and that was that.

Making other content "valid" in the eyes of the masses requires it to reward top tier loot. And if it does, the raid-loggers won't like it since they really only do want to raid and not spend time on other activities in order to be optimal.

I can somewhat relate to the mindset that "ruins" content variety, though. Personally I would really like to only crawl dungeons but have to partake in some level of raiding for the unique gear.

[Jastall]

A massive issue with the (modern) gearing system however is that it basically neuters any other path, because all gear is effectively the same.
Due to that, once you're deep enough into one game mode, you can effectively pass on the any other.


That's the difference to something like Vanilla or TBC, because while other paths have fewer options, the items presented within those alternatives often stand out.
For example, The exalted (melee) Ring from Lower City is effectively BiS during T4 for almost every melee (it's also still a solid Ring in T5), so while Reputations don't deck out you with an entire set of gear, they still provided very good items if you wanted to go after them.

Similiar thing goes for other Items, lots of the craftable items have been or are still BiS.
PvP gear also not being fully rating restricted also gives some avenue for less skilled players to acquire PvP gear, albeit a lot a slower pace to fill out some slots.

While you cannot deck yourself in TBC if you choose only one specific path such as professions or reputations, every path has a few high value items that makes them worth pursuing, whereas in the modern game, once you've mastered one mode (or unable to breach a given breaking point based on skill), you're done.

Tell when was the last time an actual reputation faction sold an item that was relevant to your character's progression and made you grind rep with that specific faction.
Not something like an essence in BfA, but an actual equipable item that also had alternative options like any other.

That's not really true. The best PvP stuff is found in PvP, because having Versa on every item, specific trinkets/effects and such is king in PvP. In 9.1 the Domination shard means raid BiS comes from raids, no questions asked (hell they're also invaluable for dungeons, not required but BiS dungeon sets certainly include them). Best dungeon trinkets? Usually from dungeons as well, albeit this certainly varies. You can job without them for sure (I think a guild cleared CE with 0 Dom shards to prove it at some point or another) but still. BiS Memories usually also drop from a high variety of activities encouraging you to poke left and right. Great Vault also does this by making, say, one M+ clear and a couple Arena matches/week well worth your time from a value standpoint even if you don't main those activities at all.

Besides, the point of the thread is the idea that you have to raid, that Blizzard only cares about that. The simple fact you can get full BiS or close-to-BiS sets from raiding or dungeons or PvP without having to play something you might not like runs completely contrary to that claim.

As to the bolded, I said professions, not faction reputation items which frankly is no great loss to me considering how boring rep grinds are. And excluding stuff like Essences or the socket-adding items in Shadowlands seems rather arbitrary as well, especially the latter.

[Caprias]

This idea is objectively wrong.

The last 2 expansions+SL have added more endgame activities outside of raiding then ever before, Mythic+ being arguably the biggest and most successful one that single-handedly transformed dungeoneering from a 3-4week springboard for raiding into a full fledged endgame experience.

The other things... World quests, Magetower, Island expeditions, Warfronts, Torghast.
Now I'd personally love to hear the overarching casual opinion on most of these features but in my eyes they've flopped in terms of replayability value.

But you can't say they haven't tried/experimented on it, that they suck at making interesting casual content and tie everything to vertical progression should be the topic.

[Evaddon]

Like everything else it gets lost in translation until one day its just the general idea....

But my main problem with the game now is raiding doesn't feel important at all outside of story moments, when most of my BiS gear comes from mythic+, there is very little draw to a lengthy raiding experience other then Challenge which...

[Argorwal]

A massive issue with the (modern) gearing system however is that it basically neuters any other path, because all gear is effectively the same.
Due to that, once you're deep enough into one game mode, you can effectively pass on the any other.


That's the difference to something like Vanilla or TBC, because while other paths have fewer options, the items presented within those alternatives often stand out.
For example, The exalted (melee) Ring from Lower City is effectively BiS during T4 for almost every melee (it's also still a solid Ring in T5), so while Reputations don't deck out you with an entire set of gear, they still provided very good items if you wanted to go after them.

Similiar thing goes for other Items, lots of the craftable items have been or are still BiS.
PvP gear also not being fully rating restricted also gives some avenue for less skilled players to acquire PvP gear, albeit a lot a slower pace to fill out some slots.

While you cannot deck yourself in TBC if you choose only one specific path such as professions or reputations, every path has a few high value items that makes them worth pursuing, whereas in the modern game, once you've mastered one mode (or unable to breach a given breaking point based on skill), you're done.

Tell when was the last time an actual reputation faction sold an item that was relevant to your character's progression and made you grind rep with that specific faction.
Not something like an essence in BfA, but an actual equipable item that also had alternative options like any other.

There is a heroic quality sanctum domination slot item for rep in korthia right now that is the highest item level the vast majority of raiders will see of that type.

[NineSpine]

when it comes to something to progress towards of course. While they might not be as powerful they are still top end things both high and low end players would want.

If you genuinely don't understand the difference between getting BiS and getting sockets, I don't really know what to tell you. It's just an obnoxiously dishonest point to contend with, just uselessly contrarian for no reason.

most of mythic+ isn’t high difficulty arguably only the top few lvls of rewards fall into that.

And I gotta also reject that Casual means you only do que able content, joining a -10 or so every once in awhile is absolutely causal.

Tell me you are insanely out of touch without telling me you are insanely out of touch.

No it’s flatly irrational to think adding in questing hubs dedicated daily areas quest text ect is just a re origination.

If you think "Let's have 50 quests but they are randomly strewn around every day" and "Let's have 50 quests but localize them more" are so radically different that one costs way more money, I once again have nothing to add as it is again useless contrarian garbage that isn't worth taking seriously.

People would rage at what ever the new low end content they needed to farm to maximize gains.

Except they wouldn't ever have to do it.

People would rage that people doing easy content could get the best gear.

Waaaaaah!

People would rage at the changes to balance high end gear easily assessable would cause.

No such changes would be required.

People would rage at high end content giving more, even if not optimal for farming.

Nobody would care.

In a different game doing this from the start there wouldn’t be an issue but it would be a massive shift for wow and people would flip out about it just like they did with with things like AP or legion legendary's.

WoW already has systems very close to this with Valor and Honor and Conquest. This isn't some crazy new idea.

[Sharein]

The best expansions were the expansions that didn't focus solely on raiding.

WotLK, Legion, MoP are generally lauded for this.

[Argorwal]

The best expansions were the expansions that didn't focus solely on raiding.

WotLK, Legion, MoP are generally lauded for this.

How didn’t Wrath focus on raiding?

It didn’t even add a new zone in any patches, and only 1 patch even had world content at all.

Wrath classic is going to be a raid loggers wet dream just like TBC classic is now.

[NineSpine]

How didn’t Wrath focus on raiding?

It didn’t even add a new zone in any patches, and only 1 patch even had world content at all.

Wrath classic is going to be a raid loggers wet dream just like TBC classic is now.

Wrath had very low barrier to entry to gear up from dungeons and BGs. It had a ton of reputations that were pretty extensive. Tradeskills had a lot of depth. There were 16 dungeons over the course of the expansion. Wintergrasp was fantastic.

[Glorious Leader]

There is no faster way to kill WoW than to give all players access to all gear in the game.

I can think of one way. Deny them access to all gear. Watch them leave.

[Krimzin]

I seriously cannot understand this logic. I've raided before, I'm sure most of us have, but I wouldn't say it's the be all end all of a video game. It's just a minigame to do with more players at the end of a character's leveling career. Where and why did this become the main focus of the game? I was watching Asmon's video last night and I think he brought up a good point--which is that the reason so many players think Raiding is the only thing that matters is because when WoW was coming up the content creators that were promoting WoW were all from the high-end/semi-high-end raiding communities. This gave the game a false sense of where the priorities arise from.

He was convinced in the video that the game tries to focus too much on the Mythic Raider Player and the Average Joe who does nothing but play once a week. While I don't disagree with the Mythic piece, the more I thought about it I could see the Average Joe piece too. But I suspect that was Activision trying to get new players to play--looking at you Mission Table and Level Squish. Those feel like corporate decisions. But the Mythic Raider piece is entirely the Devs fault. The people in leadership on the Dev team focus way too much on the Mythic Crowd. Most players don't even touch heroic raiding, yet why is it always seem like the center of the conversation revolves around Mythic Raiding.

As I finished it I was watching it with my roomate (old WOW player) and he said when he tried WoW again he noticed the leveling experience was ruined, and when he got to endgame the only thing people talked about was raiding. His conclusion was that it's no wonder the population shrank because it feels like the game thinks it's a good thing if everyone is striving to be a Mythic Raider, and he said how do you expect people to have fun under that system?

Not sure why you would think that with more and more focus/competitions on Mythic+ Dungeons, not to mention PvP..If anything Raiding has taken a backseat to the other two. They are trying to get more into Story and that does take raiding.

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As for the leveling experience being ruined? Thats a joke. Since Vanilla the only people who really cared about leveling were casual players.