Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[Miffinat0r]

Overwatch became a shit hole where you got banned/suspended for nothing more then playing off meta champs.

I rather ignore over a 1984 surveillance state...

1984 called and said Brave New World is closer to the thing you're talking about than us.

[Magnagarde]

A resounding no and not because I favour what would be the general census on what "toxicity" is, but because I don't trust the judgement of those who would enforce said tougher stance.

[Triceron]

No, its not. You are not the owner so you do not set the rules, blizzard owns it and harassments is not suppose to be allowed.

Oh the irony, the current system IS broken and unusable.

It's a privately owned space, not public whatsoever. It's limited to those who pay to play the game.

Blizzard owns it and harassments are not supposed to be allowed, but they do little to enforce their own rules which is why rampant toxicity exists. So yes, it is on them to fix that issue.

But it's still not public space no matter how we look at it. It is absolutely privately owned.

[Echo of Soul]

It's a privately owned space, not public whatsoever. It's limited to those who pay to play the game.

Blizzard owns it and harassments are not supposed to be allowed, but they do little to enforce their own rules which is why rampant toxicity exists. So yes, it is on them to fix that issue.

But it's still not public space no matter how we look at it. It is absolutely privately owned.

It really depends on how you view things. Let's say you live in a huge apartment complex and it has a common area. Yes it's not a public space since anyone in the city can't just walk in there but if one of the people who live there start harassing other people in the common area he should probably get evicted right? It shouldn't be on everyone else to ignore him and allow him to roam free.

So yes it's on Blizzard to make sure that people who can't control their emotions and their speech to be removed from the community.

[Daish]

No, its not. You are not the owner so you do not set the rules, blizzard owns it and harassments is not suppose to be allowed.

Oh the irony, the current system IS broken and unusable.

you have a tool to completely wipe out any type of message or interaction another player can have with you

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The problem with that logic is that eventually even if we're all not looking that toxicity finds a way to seep into your play time.

Blizzard went through this with OW. Kaplan wanted hard bans, Blizz said no, and as a result sponsors started pulling out because Blizz lacked the moral authority to do the right thing. Instead they cowered, like good libertarians do when the going gets tough.

Blizzard said no because a large number of innocent players were getting banned they could not afford to hard ban innocent players

it has nothing to do with moral authority or doing the "right" thing

in Overwatch there was no way for GM's to even review reports because of voice chat they used the ideology of "toxicity" if a player recives 10 reports that is "evidence" of that player being "toxic" and being toxic is against the rules

that system has been imported into WoW

right now the ban system triggers a instant ban after 10 reports within a 24 hour period (players need to be from different guilds)

[Triceron]

It really depends on how you view things. Let's say you live in a huge apartment complex and it has a common area. Yes it's not a public space since anyone in the city can't just walk in there but if one of the people who live there start harassing other people in the common area he should probably get evicted right? It shouldn't be on everyone else to ignore him and allow him to roam free.

So yes it's on Blizzard to make sure that people who can't control their emotions and their speech to be removed from the community.

Yes, and the point is if the landlord isn't doing anything about it, then there's also nothing that people can do about it either so long as whatever 'harassment' is happening isn't out in public space where government rules apply.

That's the thing here. Blizzard isn't doing anything about it. Should they? Absolutely. Are they? The most we see is their move towards automation and taking a hands-off approach to handing any type of customer service, be it enforcement or other. And frankly that is something that people need to decide on their own whether the 'service' they're paying for is really worth it. It's not like Blizzard doesn't know about the problems, it's that they're not interested in doing anything about it.


And as far as accountability goes, only so much can be done without completely alienating the audience. I mean as I pointed above with my forum analogy, there's only so much moderation that can go on until people literally up and leave in droves, and you're left with a dead forum that's heavily moderated for the handful of people who cared to stick around. And we're talking about a business that is 'in it for the clicks', and they need to maintain their MAU's to show investors that the game is worth keeping its budget.

Maybe the Microsoft takeover will help push things in a better direction. Who knows. We'll have to wait and see.

[Daish]

Yes, and the point is if the landlord isn't doing anything about it, then there's also nothing that people can do about it either so long as whatever 'harassment' is happening isn't out in public space where government rules apply.

That's the thing here. Blizzard isn't doing anything about it. Should they? Absolutely. Are they? The most we see is their move towards automation and taking a hands-off approach to handing any type of customer service, be it enforcement or other. And frankly that is something that people need to decide on their own whether the 'service' they're paying for is really worth it. It's not like Blizzard doesn't know about the problems, it's that they're not interested in doing anything about it.

if Hilter came back to life then logged into WoW and said the most offensive racist garbage you have ever seen and only 9 people reported him he would not get banned

if a normal player has a disagreement or people do not like his opinion even though he has broken no rules if 10 people report him its instant ban time

its people who promote the concept of toxicity that have allowed this to happen
without the concept of toxicity Blizzard would not of been able to fire almost all GM's

[kaminaris]

you have a tool to completely wipe out any type of message or interaction another player can have with you

Current automated system is shit.

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It's a privately owned space, not public whatsoever. It's limited to those who pay to play the game.

Blizzard owns it and harassments are not supposed to be allowed, but they do little to enforce their own rules which is why rampant toxicity exists. So yes, it is on them to fix that issue.

But it's still not public space no matter how we look at it. It is absolutely privately owned.

Like the comment below you already explained. Just because you privately own a piece of land, doesn't turn it into your own "anarchy yard", especially the moment you make it publicity available. Good example is shopping malls.

[LTN]

Yes, and the point is if the landlord isn't doing anything about it, then there's also nothing that people can do about it either so long as whatever 'harassment' is happening isn't out in public space where government rules apply.

That's the thing here. Blizzard isn't doing anything about it. Should they? Absolutely. Are they? The most we see is their move towards automation and taking a hands-off approach to handing any type of customer service, be it enforcement or other. And frankly that is something that people need to decide on their own whether the 'service' they're paying for is really worth it. It's not like Blizzard doesn't know about the problems, it's that they're not interested in doing anything about it.


And as far as accountability goes, only so much can be done without completely alienating the audience. I mean as I pointed above with my forum analogy, there's only so much moderation that can go on until people literally up and leave in droves, and you're left with a dead forum that's heavily moderated for the handful of people who cared to stick around. And we're talking about a business that is 'in it for the clicks', and they need to maintain their MAU's to show investors that the game is worth keeping its budget.

Maybe the Microsoft takeover will help push things in a better direction. Who knows. We'll have to wait and see.

Why should they?

Ignore exists and people unwilling to help themselves will always cry for more control until they are tiny tyrants .

They have the power of a god with ignore and it's not enough they want to viciously inflict harm beyond the game. I in no way trust some rando to not abuse any power they are given. Doubly so for those screaming think or the children or some other dubious moral stance.

[Sluvs]

Why throw you are not the owner at me when you are the one begging for change?

Just use the ignore function. It's the same as that old Simpson episode, " just dont look"

Because toxicity builds a bad community. And a bad community is not good for the game. This is very very simple concept to grasp.

Its funny people keep saying that fighting toxicity is a rigtheous crusade, but here is the thing, upholding your freedom of speech(lets face it: freedom to be an asshole) is your crusade.

This thread perfectly exemplifies a big problem with WoW. When faced with a simple question: Should we try to make the community better? Should we fight toxicity harder?

Leave to the WoW fan to be 100% against a simple baseline upgrade that every game tries to have.

WoW is not a forum for you to have free speech. WoW is a game, and it should have stricter rules to keep toxicity at bay so the community can get better.

You keep using 1984, tyrants and other terms like you are arguing for something big. You are not, you are just on the other side of the crusade, on a high horse, failing to see that you are on your own righteous crusade for freedom of speech. This is not some grand debate.

You want freedom of speech? Go to a town square.

There shouldn't be a place for dicks in WoW. They should be punished. No one likes toxic players.

Wanting to have a better community should not be a controversial opinion.

[Relapses]

Because toxicity builds a bad community. And a bad community is not good for the game. This is very very simple concept to grasp.

Its funny people keep saying that fighting toxicity is a rigtheous crusade, but here is the thing, upholding your freedom of speech(lets face it: freedom to be an asshole) is your crusade.

This thread perfectly exemplifies a big problem with WoW. When faced with a simple question: Should we try to make the community better? Should we fight toxicity harder?

Leave to the WoW fan to be 100% against a simple baseline upgrade that every game tries to have.

WoW is not a forum for you to have free speech. WoW is a game, and it should have stricter rules to keep toxicity at bay so the community can get better.

You keep using 1984, tyrants and other terms like you are arguing for something big. You are not, you are just on the other side of the crusade, on a high horse, failing to see that you are on your own righteous crusade for freedom of speech. This is not some grand debate.

You want freedom of speech? Go to a town square.

There shouldn't be a place for dicks in WoW. They should be punished. No one likes toxic players.

Wanting to have a better community should not be a controversial opinion.

I don't know if you're doing it intentionally but you are ignoring a crucial aspect of the argument against a tougher stance against toxicity: The fact that many WoW players do not agree on what is or isn't toxic behavior. And the argument in favor of the current system isn't that we want to "protect our right to be an asshole," as you say, it's that Draconian measures used in other games have, in practice, led to unforeseeable behavioral changes in their respective communities, some of which are not always for betterment of the game. (ie, being afraid to post meters which show people they're underperforming on the off chance somebody might get offended and interpret your attempt to point out an issue as toxicity.)

The actual debate is not as binary "good/bad" as you're making it seem here. Although on a personal level I agree that Blizzard could do a lot more than they do currently, many of the solutions being presented in this thread (imo) stray a bit too far into the realm of overscrutinization. This isn't me saying that players should be "allowed" to be toxic; merely that we should be cognizant of the side effects of systems which are overly reliant on a broad definition of toxicity which isn't universally agreed upon.

[LTN]

Because toxicity builds a bad community. And a bad community is not good for the game. This is very very simple concept to grasp.

Its funny people keep saying that fighting toxicity is a rigtheous crusade, but here is the thing, upholding your freedom of speech(lets face it: freedom to be an asshole) is your crusade.

This thread perfectly exemplifies a big problem with WoW. When faced with a simple question: Should we try to make the community better? Should we fight toxicity harder?

Leave to the WoW fan to be 100% against a simple baseline upgrade that every game tries to have.

WoW is not a forum for you to have free speech. WoW is a game, and it should have stricter rules to keep toxicity at bay so the community can get better.

You keep using 1984, tyrants and other terms like you are arguing for something big. You are not, you are just on the other side of the crusade, on a high horse, failing to see that you are on your own righteous crusade for freedom of speech. This is not some grand debate.

You want freedom of speech? Go to a town square.

There shouldn't be a place for dicks in WoW. They should be punished. No one likes toxic players.

Wanting to have a better community should not be a controversial opinion.

Here is the thing... you will never have a system that works the way you want it to work. In trying to you will cause more harm then good.

You are going to end up with a system like league of legends or over watch with people being banned for playing poorly or playing off spec. I don't see more and more draconian censorship as a positive I cant.

[Sluvs]

Here is the thing... you will never have a system that works the way you want it to work. In trying to you will cause more harm then good.

You are going to end up with a system like league of legends or over watch with people being banned for playing poorly or playing off spec. I don't see more and more draconian censorship as a positive I cant.

I can understand this argument, I'm not claiming that we should make everything a bannable offense.

But it can't stay the way it is now. There also should not be an automated banning system.

Combating toxicity is not easy, and not cheap. But IMHO, it is essential for the health of the game. I honestly do not think it will do more harm than good because currently, the community is downright one of nastiest i have ever seen, only losing to OW and LoL.

[Relapses]

I can understand this argument, I'm not claiming that we should make everything a bannable offense.

But it can't stay the way it is now. There also should not be an automated banning system.

Combating toxicity is not easy, and not cheap. But IMHO, it is essential for the health of the game. I honestly do not think it will do more harm than good because currently, the community is downright one of nastiest i have ever seen, only losing to OW and LoL.

I'll say that the one downside of the current system is that it does, in fact, require players to be reporting other players for toxic behavior. If you're not being reported, you can get away with a lot which is why I think a lot of people feel like the current system is insufficient. The golden question then becomes how can Blizzard implement a system which doesn't rely on player reports that also helps weed out toxicity without false positives? Outside of automation, there aren't a whole lot of good ideas on this front.

[Sluvs]

I don't know if you're doing it intentionally but you are ignoring a crucial aspect of the argument against a tougher stance against toxicity: The fact that many WoW players do not agree on what is or isn't toxic behavior. And the argument in favor of the current system isn't that we want to "protect our right to be an asshole," as you say, it's that Draconian measures used in other games have, in practice, led to unforeseeable behavioral changes in their respective communities, some of which are not always for betterment of the game. (ie, being afraid to post meters which show people they're underperforming on the off chance somebody might get offended and interpret your attempt to point out an issue as toxicity.)

The actual debate is not as binary "good/bad" as you're making it seem here. Although on a personal level I agree that Blizzard could do a lot more than they do currently, many of the solutions being presented in this thread (imo) stray a bit too far into the realm of overscrutinization. This isn't me saying that players should be "allowed" to be toxic; merely that we should be cognizant of the side effects of systems which are overly reliant on a broad definition of toxicity which isn't universally agreed upon.

I'm sorry but most of what is being debated here in this thread is not where the line between bannable and non bannable should be. What is being mostly discussed is if there should be a line at all because a system can do more harm than good.

My main point here is that our standards for fighting toxicity is SO low right now, that improving on it should not be a hot take. WoW does a poor job of fighting toxicity, a very poor job, to the point that is laughable. And they also have a overreliance on automated system which should also not happen.

I get where you coming from, but from what I saw people are not arguing over where the line should be.

It does not need to be draconian, but it does need to be better.

[Djaye]

/ignore

is it really that hard?

[Sluvs]

I'll say that the one downside of the current system is that it does, in fact, require players to be reporting other players for toxic behavior. If you're not being reported, you can get away with a lot which is why I think a lot of people feel like the current system is insufficient. The golden question then becomes how can Blizzard implement a system which doesn't rely on player reports that also helps weed out toxicity without false positives? Outside of automation, there aren't a whole lot of good ideas on this front.

Well, the solution for this is not using automation to ban people. But to use it to create reports so a human can review it, while also creating more awareness of the report tool.

We need more actual people looking in the reports, IMHO.

[Relapses]

Well, the solution for this is not using automation to ban people. But to use it to create reports so a human can review it, while also creating more awareness of the report tool.

We need more actual people looking in the reports, IMHO.

I guess -- but this presents an issue that I touched on a few pages back. Why have multiple people whose job description is now, "make sure people aren't assholes" instead of, "work on making game better"? I think we need more of the latter and while I understand the desire for more of the former it shouldn't come at the expense of the latter.

I know you'll say "why not both?" but having worked for a larger corporations most of my life, I know such a dichotomy rarely plays out internally.

[Sluvs]

A hot take would be my opinion on what they should do, which is controversial, so I can understand that people would disagree with me. But here it is.

IMO, any name calling should be punished. I do not care what. The punishment should be a silence for a couple of hours with repeating offenders getting a bigger silence.

While silenced you could only talk to people that are on your friendlist and that have you on theirs. Of course, serious offenses should have heavir punishment.

The line would probably be somehting like:

Ok:Hey you are a bad healer.
Not ok: The healer is an idiot.

I do recognize that my stance is agressive though.

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I guess -- but this presents an issue that I touched on a few pages back. Why have multiple people whose job description is now, "make sure people aren't assholes" instead of, "work on making game better"? I think we need more of the latter and while I understand the desire for more of the former it shouldn't come at the expense of the latter.

I know you'll say "why not both?" but having worked for a larger corporations most of my life, I know such a dichotomy rarely plays out internally.

Making sure people are not assholes does make the game better I would argue.

[LTN]

I can understand this argument, I'm not claiming that we should make everything a bannable offense.

But it can't stay the way it is now. There also should not be an automated banning system.

Combating toxicity is not easy, and not cheap. But IMHO, it is essential for the health of the game. I honestly do not think it will do more harm than good because currently, the community is downright one of nastiest i have ever seen, only losing to OW and LoL.

It's been 15 years and gotten more mild with time. I don't see the impetus you do to be frank.