Crisis in UK, Can Tories Save Liz Truss?

[Huehuecoyotl]

Brexit is over

No, it isn't. The import changes were only partially introduced from January 1st. Some of them have been delayed further until June. The impact of those changes haven't been felt yet, and they will be negative. And the Tories are still trying to renegotiate the NI Protocol that they sold to the electorate was "oven ready".

Brexit is far from over, that's yet another lie that our Brexiteers would like us to believe. Then they can try and detach the ongoing problems from actually being related to Brexit. Have you not been keeping up with what's going on in the country?

[jonnysensible]

Getting Brexit Done

not to mention brexit is still being negotiated. see the empty calls for article 16.

[Pann]

No, it isn't. The import changes were only partially introduced from January 1st. Some of them have been delayed further until June. The impact of those changes haven't been felt yet, and they will be negative. And the Tories are still trying to renegotiate the NI Protocol that they sold to the electorate was "oven ready".

Brexit is far from over, that's yet another lie that our Brexiteers would like us to believe. Then they can try and detach the ongoing problems from actually being related to Brexit. Have you not been keeping up with what's going on in the country?

It really is. And has been over since December 2019.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It really is. And has been over since December 2019.

Why do you feel the need to repeat this lie, when it's so simple to google and see that it simply isn't true? Is it that hard to let go of your beliefs in the light of evidence?

[Pann]

Why do you feel the need to repeat this lie, when it's so simple to google and see that it simply isn't true? Is it that hard to let go of your beliefs in the light of evidence?

Whilst there will still be ongoing negations over the coming years between us and the EU, Brexit - as far as voters are concerned - was over as soon as the Tories won an 80 seat majority. There is nothing more to it than that.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Whilst there will still be ongoing negations over the coming years between us and the EU, Brexit - as far as voters are concerned - was over as soon as the Tories won an 80 seat majority. There is nothing more to it than that.

"This building is now complete, because I've got planning permission to build it. Any building equipment and dust you are going to experience for the next several years can be ignored. It's nothing to do with the building, because I've just finished that."

That's basically what you've just said. Nonsense, isn't it?

[dribbles]

I'm surprised he made it through the day without a no confidence vote being called, Wakeford's defection seems to have galvanised the Tories for the time being and it looks like they'll wait until Sue Gray's report is released before deciding if they pull the trigger.

The polls are looking bad for the Tories and Brexit is over so they can no longer rely on Getting Brexit Done, Corbyn is gone and Johnson's election winning aura has been shattered therefore I think it is a question of when, rather than if, they move to replace Johnson. I would guess that he'll either be gone by the end of the month or they'll wait until after the locals.

I'm not sure Corbyn and his gang have gone anywhere.

Jeremy Corbyn considers launching new party :- Such a move could split the Labour vote and prevent Sir Keir Starmer
from winning the next General Election.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/je...our-mp-1392176

Fingers X that happens, it has come to something for the Labour party when an ex-Tory is welcomed yet a former leader is still exiled.

I concede that it is possible the 54 letters might get handed in from a few Tory opportunists, but to get rid of Boris they need 180 votes. I believe Boris will come out the other side of this stronger, the Tory traitors now exposed and isolated and in the open to be dealt with mercilessly at a later date.

It is a lot of noise, imho, from a bitter Cummings led media storm in a tea cup. Much of the country don't care about partygate outside of the Westminster bubble. Half of us were partying, still are to this day, breaking Covid lockdown rules left right and centre just as Boris was.

The only difference is he got caught.

[Milchshake]

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25...ry_south/votes

General election 2019: Bury South results :
Conservative Christian Wakeford votes :22,034
Labour Lucy Burke votesL 21,632

not really hard to see why this happened. He has a history of pursuing politics for his own financial gain.

Tories are tanking and he wants to keep his meal ticket. its not like hes suddenly abandoned his ideology.

the equivalent would be Marjorie Taylor Green saying 'im joining the democrats' and them welcoming her unconditionally if her seat looked like it was going to flip.

Thats neat, in the end I'd imagine Labour will do what it sees as best for itself.
I just like feeling out the incongruity of small but very loud and dumb factions assuming they speak for the whole organization. It's the ongoing mismatch of online politics, versus real word politics.
Not quite as dumb as assuming that MTG is somehow a good analogy for this. She won her district with 75%. Which is very different than this dude winning with 51%.

Thats some real wanker math.

[Pann]

"This building is now complete, because I've got planning permission to build it. Any building equipment and dust you are going to experience for the next several years can be ignored. It's nothing to do with the building, because I've just finished that."

That's basically what you've just said. Nonsense, isn't it?

It's not but whatever. Look I don't care whether you believe me or not you can continue to proclaim Brexit will be reversed any minute now but you will be as wrong as every other time you've predicted that Brexit will not happen/be reversed. The country has moved on and the debate Brexit is not going be reopened any time soon.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I'm not sure Corbyn and his gang have gone anywhere.

Jeremy Corbyn considers launching new party :- Such a move could split the Labour vote and prevent Sir Keir Starmer
from winning the next General Election.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/je...our-mp-1392176

Fingers X that happens, it has come to something for the Labour party when an ex-Tory is welcomed yet a former leader is still exiled.

I concede that it is possible the 54 letters might get handed in from a few Tory opportunists, but to get rid of Boris they need 180 votes. I believe Boris will come out the other side of this stronger, the Tory traitors now exposed and isolated and in the open to be dealt with mercilessly at a later date.

It is a lot of noise, imho, from a bitter Cummings led media storm in a tea cup. Much of the country don't care about partygate outside of the Westminster bubble. Half of us were partying, still are to this day, breaking Covid lockdown rules left right and centre just as Boris was.

The only difference is he got caught.

I shouldn't be surprised that you have the same contempt for laws that Boris does. And the same lack of empathy with people that were suffering as this pandemic progressed.

I won't bother linking anything here, because I know you will ignore it anyway; but you're lying. Again. The public is VERY interested in partygate, and two thirds of voters think he should go. Hell, we're close to the point where a majority of Tory voters believe he should resign. And the number that do outnumber those that believe he should stay by 2-1.

Boris is toast. Then we get to see the ugliest beauty pagent in history, as various talent vacuums line up to be the next occupant of his chair. What happens after that is anyone's guess, but in the glare of the damage that Brexit is doing to this country, they'll be no place for them to hide. Not even a fridge.

[jonnysensible]

I'm not sure Corbyn and his gang have gone anywhere.

Jeremy Corbyn considers launching new party :- Such a move could split the Labour vote and prevent Sir Keir Starmer
from winning the next General Election.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/je...our-mp-1392176

Fingers X that happens, it has come to something for the Labour party when an ex-Tory is welcomed yet a former leader is still exiled.

I concede that it is possible the 54 letters might get handed in from a few Tory opportunists, but to get rid of Boris they need 180 votes. I believe Boris will come out the other side of this stronger, the Tory traitors now exposed and isolated and in the open to be dealt with mercilessly at a later date.

It is a lot of noise, imho, from a bitter Cummings led media storm in a tea cup. Much of the country don't care about partygate outside of the Westminster bubble. Half of us were partying, still are to this day, breaking Covid lockdown rules left right and centre just as Boris was.

The only difference is he got caught.

boris gets nuked next election if hes leader. Hes facing structural challenges (cost of living etc) always hard to win when costs are going up noticeably. There is visceral hatred of him that he just cant escape from. The tories would do well to bin him and put someone like tom tugendhat in, the thicko tory voters and centrists would cream themselves and forgive the party instantly (to protect their personal interests).

[Huehuecoyotl]

It's not but whatever. Look I don't care whether you believe me or not you can continue to proclaim Brexit will be reversed any minute now but you will be as wrong as every other time you've predicted that Brexit will not happen/be reversed. The country has moved on and the debate Brexit is not going be reopened any time soon.

The whooshing sound of goalposts moving, eh? I'm not talking about reversing it here. I'm telling you, flat out, that Brexit isn't even finished yet. And when you say that it is, you are lying. And in case you've forgotten from the Brexit thread, when you lie about stuff, I call you out on it.

Are you going to admit you were wrong about it being finished? This isn't a subjective matter, it's easily retrievable facts. Go on, be the bigger man for once.

[Pann]

I'm not sure Corbyn and his gang have gone anywhere.

Jeremy Corbyn considers launching new party :- Such a move could split the Labour vote and prevent Sir Keir Starmer
from winning the next General Election.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/je...our-mp-1392176

Fingers X that happens, it has come to something for the Labour party when an ex-Tory is welcomed yet a former leader is still exiled.

I concede that it is possible the 54 letters might get handed in from a few Tory opportunists, but to get rid of Boris they need 180 votes. I believe Boris will come out the other side of this stronger, the Tory traitors now exposed and isolated and in the open to be dealt with mercilessly at a later date.

It is a lot of noise, imho, from a bitter Cummings led media storm in a tea cup. Much of the country don't care about partygate outside of the Westminster bubble. Half of us were partying, still are to this day, breaking Covid lockdown rules left right and centre just as Boris was.

The only difference is he got caught.

Corbyn is gone. He'll probably retain his seat as an independent but as separate party they are going nowhere and to be honest taking momentum with him would be one of the best things that could happen to the Labour Party.

The Tories are in dire straits but they do have three years before they really have to worry. From my perspective their biggest concern should be that the trouble they're in at present is for the most part self inflicted and this comes back to Johnson.

I think that voters could accept the parties had it not been for the lying and blagging that followed and as a result Johnson has made rod for his own back.

I really don't see how he can come back from this.

- - - Updated - - -

The whooshing sound of goalposts moving, eh? I'm not talking about reversing it here. I'm telling you, flat out, that Brexit isn't even finished yet. And when you say that it is, you are lying. And in case you've forgotten from the Brexit thread, when you lie about stuff, I call you out on it.

Are you going to admit you were wrong about it being finished? This isn't a subjective matter, it's easily retrievable facts. Go on, be the bigger man for once.

I'm not moving any goal posts. Brexit as far being a vote winner is over and done with. Whatever nonsense you post in the Brexit thread will not change this.

[jonnysensible]

Thats neat, in the end I'd imagine Labour will do what it sees as best for itself.
I just like feeling out the incongruity of small but very loud and dumb factions assuming they speak for the whole organization. It's the ongoing mismatch of online politics, versus real word politics.
Not quite as dumb as assuming that MTG is somehow a good analogy for this. She won her district with 75%. Which is very different than this dude winning with 51%.

Thats some real wanker math.

Can't see people being happy about this. He was a parachuted candidate as well. The former labour MP got suspended from the party (sexual harassment), ran as an indy, pulled out after postal votes and then endorsed the tory boy. The doris he beat was a local who had a long history in the party and a long history of standing up for disabled rights. Sneering about purity or dressing the sleaze up in 'do whats best' is a bit on the nose.

The analogy is a bit dodgy. He had the same views yesterday as he does today. Just changed colors. I used an extreme example but I can't imagine you wouldn't find it jarring if a republican did the same tomorrow.

[Edge-]

Much of the country don't care about partygate outside of the Westminster bubble. Half of us were partying, still are to this day, breaking Covid lockdown rules left right and centre just as Boris was.

Man, this is so incredibly on-brand for you to be "bragging" about that it hurts.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I'm not moving any goal posts. Brexit as far being a vote winner is over and done with. Whatever nonsense you post in the Brexit thread will not change this.

Ah, there is the old Pann I'm used to. Gets something wrong, gets offended when it's pointed out that they're wrong, then spends pages nit-picking trying to "prove" that they are actually correct, somehow.

You said Brexit was finished. It isn't. This is something dribbles regularly can't understand as well; your feelings about whether something is "true" don't get to override reality. There are import duties and processes that won't take effect until June, and possibly not even then if we're still not ready. There is a government minister in active discussion with the EU about renegotiating the NI Protocol.

It. Isn't. Finished. And we don't get to experience the full negative impacts until it is. So stop lying.

And if I'm posting "nonsense" in the Brexit thread, feel free to come over there and debate. Point out where I'm wrong, and why. I'll be waiting.

[Zaydin]

Thats neat, in the end I'd imagine Labour will do what it sees as best for itself.
I just like feeling out the incongruity of small but very loud and dumb factions assuming they speak for the whole organization. It's the ongoing mismatch of online politics, versus real word politics.
Not quite as dumb as assuming that MTG is somehow a good analogy for this. She won her district with 75%. Which is very different than this dude winning with 51%.

Thats some real wanker math.

Reminder: MTG ran in her district unopposed and yet she somehow failed to net 100% of the vote.

[Pann]

Ah, there is the old Pann I'm used to. Gets something wrong, gets offended when it's pointed out that they're wrong, then spends pages nit-picking trying to "prove" that they are actually correct, somehow.

You said Brexit was finished. It isn't. This is something dribbles regularly can't understand as well; your feelings about whether something is "true" don't get to override reality. There are import duties and processes that won't take effect until June, and possibly not even then if we're still not ready. There is a government minister in active discussion with the EU about renegotiating the NI Protocol.

It. Isn't. Finished. And we don't get to experience the full negative impacts until it is. So stop lying.

And if I'm posting "nonsense" in the Brexit thread, feel free to come over there and debate. Point out where I'm wrong, and why. I'll be waiting.

I'm not offended, why would you think that I'm offended? Anyways my apologies I had forgotten that everything has to be quite literal with you and that you are incapable of spotting nuance or context.

My point was - which I thought was quite obvious but clearly not - is that the big three hooks for Johnson at the last election - Getting Brexit Done, not being Corbyn and his election winning charisma - no longer apply and will therefore not be a consideration when we next go to the polls. I did not mean that the process of Brexit was literally over only that as far being a consideration for voters it is over and as a consequence Tories can no longer rely on this to win over seats, especially in the red wall.

Seeing as Johnson's ability to win the next election will be at the forefront of the Cons' decision to stick with him or ditch him I thought that him being unable to fall back on things that won the last election (Brexit being one of them) was an important point.

This is not me moving any goal posts but simply trying to explain my point which you appear to have failed to understand.

None of that is relevant to this thread - which is about Johnson and his future - there's a dedicated thread for that and if I wished to discuss Brexit with people who know nothing about Brexit I would post in it.

[Jessicka]

Just waiting for the next drop on this drip-feed of revelations against him.

What "galvanised" the Tories yesterday was dropping covid restrictions, nothing else.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Anyways my apologies I had forgotten that everything has to be quite literal with you and that you are incapable of spotting nuance or context.

Translation: "I wrote something that was clearly wrong. When called out on it, I explain that the reader was supposed to infer a whole number of things about my statement that weren't at all obvious, but in conjunction would have kind of made my point slightly less wrong".

It's like trying to figure out the "clues" in 3-2-1 with your posts. It's only when you go back and explain the hidden depths behind your plainly wrong posts that you think it all should suddenly make sense to us.

None of that is relevant to this thread - which is about Johnson and his future - there's a dedicated thread for that and if I wished to discuss Brexit with people who know nothing about Brexit I would post in it.

And there's the patronising smug part of the Pann posts that I'd forgotten about. Can't argue on merit, falls back on high-handed insults.

And Brexit is very relevant to the fall of Boris. Because all the damage that is making him so unpopular (high inflation, high energy bills etc.) have been worsened by Brexit. And if he wasn't getting so unpopular with the voting public, the Tories wouldn't be looking to replace him. He hasn't suddenly become a self-serving liar; he's been that his entire life. MPs proposed him as a leader knowing what he was like. Tory Party members voted for him knowing what he was like. They didn't care as long as he won them power; now it looks like he'll cost them power, they are ditching him immediately.

Or at least as soon as enough of them stop prevaricating and put their letters in to the 1922 committee.