Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[Gestopft]

To some yes I'm sure. But if you really think about what I said in my initial post you might see that part of my issue is the overall toxicity of the M+ system.

Honestly, I see way more toxic behavior in regular/heroic dungeons, LFR, and BGs than I do in M+. Sometimes Consumption in Korthia ALONE is more toxic than my entire week of runs.

That and it promotes a type of gamer that I believe is detrimental to WoW. To do good M+ runs you need a good team. Which requires commitment.

This has generally been the case with high-level raiding too. Not sure what your point is. The highest level group content is done by players that play together frequently and communicate. Not sure how that's a bad thing?

I think it should have been a system where it was designed so that you can just drop in anytime and depending on your skill level you can progress. Not because you couldn't be bothered to fish for a decent team on social media or forums, or commit to a schedule, etc.

You can totally progress through M+ up to maxing out your vault reward (+15) or higher without any team or scheduling commitments. Sure, once you're in the +20's and well beyond the max gear rewards, it's harder to progress- especially through PuGs- but you can absolutely "drop in any time and...progress." It's literally what I do on most of my toons.

[Polybius]

From your pov, yes. Ppl can make connections with ppl they ran dungeons with, yet they refuse to do so. They don't connect because they don't want to connect. And they continue perpetuating toxicity.

So... is Blizz at fault for making a system that players refuse to use as intended? Is it a mistake they made it to begin with? At this point it's hard to say... the genre, despite what ppl want to think, is not "a lot of ppl playing alone". Yet because ppl are weirdos they want to change this game into something it's not instead of admitting that maybe this game isn't for them or no longer is. That it was not designed for solo players and they will just have to let go if they don't have the time/ will to form connections.

Is it or is it not that way from the start. Admit it or make up your f*cking minds.

[PenguinChan]

Honestly it's one of the best systems they've added, even if I do not like participating in the shitshow that can be the manual party finder. Very fun with friends, a very mixed experience with manual randoms. If they could somehow make it automated for PUGs instead of the manual party finder, it'd be rather nice.

[Tekko]

M+ is great at the start of an expansion.

As someone who gets sick of the dungeons by the time the next raid is out, I don't like how spamming the same dungeons again is the best way to boost ilvl. I prefer to get the best gear possible from raids and not have to do the same dungeons again once past a certain gear level.

[Engal]

I'm not misleading anyone, each of those expansions had almost the same number of dungeon, one or less doesnt matter. SL is no different, just had one less patch that the others.

[epigramx]

M+ is great at the start of an expansion.

As someone who gets sick of the dungeons by the time the next raid is out, I don't like how spamming the same dungeons again is the best way to boost ilvl.

They should just limit them; make them appear less needed to be done that much; the m+ system could stay since many people like it. My best idea is to just subtract 2 dungeons from 5mans and make them 10man hard mode instead. It solves 2 problems with 1 stone; 5mans become less significant and they should become less significant mainly because the game has 12 classes and with only 5 people in the group: the metas become too extreme; 10man also deserves a hard mode because many people want it and it's a nice middle ground of the extremity of the handful of metas of 5man and the more complete gameplay of 20man and 20man can't give its own instances to hard mode 10man because that would disrupt the balance of the progress competition.

[crusadernero]

They should just limit them; make them appear less needed to be done that much; the m+ system could stay since many people like it. My best idea is to just subtract 2 dungeons from 5mans and make them 10man hard mode instead. It solves 2 problems with 1 stone; 5mans become less significant and they should become less significant mainly because the game has 12 classes and with only 5 people in the group: the metas become too extreme; 10man also deserves a hard mode because many people want it and it's a nice middle ground of the extremity of the handful of metas of 5man and the more complete gameplay of 20man and 20man can't give its own instances to hard mode 10man because that would disrupt the balance of the progress competition.

You would still have meta for 10 man. There is meta for mythic raiding right now. Raiding guilds already know whos the best tanks for 9.2. They know what class does best dps on what boss. That wont change in 10 man either.

I dont think the solution is to make another gearpath that also are very difficult. It serves no purpose whatsoever and will be done by few people.

Blizzard has this system with dungeons & raids so everyone can see it while those that want to can be challenged. LFR, normal, HC & mythic makes sure everyone sees the raid no matter how bad you are. You can eat dinner while clearing LFR, watch everyone else do the job. Then you have mythic that is a pure nolife grind combined with sell runs.

Dungeons have normal, HC & mythic+. Also here, any player that manages to queue up gets to see the dungeons. After that, they can choose the difficulty themself. In any case, m+ is better than mythic raids. Atleast in m+ you can somewhat dictate the difficulty you want to try and improve over time.

Example: Player A decides to push m+ keys. In short time he has control over the keys between 1-9. He knows what to do etc. Decides to push from 10 and up and starts to feel the difficulty at key 13. He can stay around this range and practice, get better and improve. Once thats under control, he can continue pushing higher keys.

So overall, m+ scales the difficulty and makes it up to the player if he wants to put in the effort, skill and dedication to clear high keys.


Lastly - I doubt hard 10 man modes would be welcomed at all, especially if that ment removing two dungeons. in any case, people want to play with fewer people(even fewer than 5), especially when doing hard content.

[deenman]

WoD got hammered with the “nothing to do” within a month of its release, which was WAY before the content drought was realized.

People hit 100 and realized there was nothing to do for players outside of raid day to work on. And most people don’t raid.

Ironically, that isn’t even much different than TBC classic right now, but the playerbase changes with time.

Yeah,the changing with time is a big factor,tbc was still fresh wow,and saw huge growth,so it was fresh for like half the playerbase

but the thing tbc did better than wod was progression,no matter how good you were in tbc,you had a progression path you had to follow

in wod there was no such path,you just did dungeons to get gear,and then bam you were ready to raid normal,and if you are in a good guild next tier you could even skip normal completly if you have mythic gear,unless you really needed something

[epigramx]

You would still have meta for 10 man.

Of course; even 20man has metas; it's impossible to eliminate them entirely. But: they are less extremist compared to 5man because the game has 12 classes; the smaller the gametype is the more brutal the metaing (e.g. every single world record of 5mans with no exception at all for months had a frost mage); this is about bringing a middle ground between 5man and 20man in that regard.

Also people just want to play it (we keep hearing of that demand); I think most 20man raiders would love it especially because it will not disrupt their 20man instances since it would be in its own instances and most of them who hate m+: would love 10man; also this thread is filled to the brim with people who find m+ excessively overrated as a gear path so reducing it a little won't hurt.

[Twdft]

Where does the meta hate come from I wonder?

+25s have been beaten by every spec in the game, world firsts using meta classes is predictable. Meta is nothing new and outside of haveing exactly 3 specs in the game also not avoidable. The handful of players who would actually be hindered by not playing a meta class don't care, they simply level the char they need. Everyone else should simply play what they like, it doesn't matter.

[starstationprofm]

They overgear it because of M+. If M+ didn't exist raids would not be cleared the first week.

Except M+ doesn't give you Mythic level gear until the next week and even then it's 1 item

[enigma77]

It was much better in Legion, with Titanforging.

[Relapses]

Except M+ doesn't give you Mythic level gear until the next week and even then it's 1 item

M+ gear is relevant for the first tier of an expansion. It was relevant in 8.3 but that's only because +15s dropped higher item loot than Heroic. I'd wager a guess that Blizzard didn't like the RWF guilds feeling compelled to farm not only raids but also M+ so in CN they dropped the maximum item level farmable from M+ just shy of normal Heroic. So technically @Aedruid was kinda right...but mostly wrong.

[epigramx]

The handful of players who would actually be hindered by not playing a meta class don't care

Wat. I play an arcane mage and it's practically a dead spec at level 22 or level 23 because almost everyone else plays frost at that point because their sustained AOE is broken so you become a "super hobbyist against the stream" to be arcane; unless you want to delete m+ after level ~20; I'm pretty sure you do not want to delete m+ after level 20 so you can't have it both ways.

And when you say "why you hate metas": you miss the basic nature of what they are; they are objectively bad for balance of the game because you leave various specs at a disadvantage; they are massively reduced in 20man because you can bring many others for their utility and they are majorly increased in 5mans because you are forced to only get the "best 5" to be optimal.

[Argorwal]

Wat. I play an arcane mage and it's practically a dead spec at level 22 or level 23 because almost everyone else plays frost at that point because their sustained AOE is broken so you become a "super hobbyist against the stream" to be arcane; unless you want to delete m+ after level ~20; I'm pretty sure you do not want to delete m+ after level 20 so you can't have it both ways.

And when you say "why you hate metas": you miss the basic nature of what they are; they are objectively bad for balance of the game because you leave various specs at a disadvantage; they are massively reduced in 20man because you can bring many others for their utility and they are majorly increased in 5mans because you are forced to only get the "best 5" to be optimal.

I think the point is every single game with options will by definition have a meta.

How much people care about the meta depends on how hard the content is and what the players is looking to accomplish.

But it is never going away.

And for the level of keys that the vast majority do (including where the gear stops) it just isn’t hard enough to matter. Kind of like heroic or early mythic bosses.

And an infinite difficulty setting, by definition, will squeeze the meta harder and harder at the top. There is no way that won’t happen. Add infinite scaling to anything and that will happen. Dungeons, raids, Torghast, even world quests.

Group size somewhat helps, but mostly for logistics. Even in the larger size, if the boss is hard enough to warrant it, significant class stacking still happens. We’ve seen many challenging raid bosses stack 5-6 of a given class. Hell, I remember a guild stacked 13 warlocks for mythic Uunat.

Just the nature of a game based on math.

[epigramx]

every single game with options will by definition have a meta.

I covered that earlier in the thread; even 20man has metas; even a 36man would have metas. The point is they are massively reduced the more you add players and vice versa; look how ludicrously broken 3v3 or 2v2 pvp is for example; 5man is not very far from there.

That's why I suggest a 10man hard mode in place of a couple of those 5man dungeons; it would be a good middle ground between the extremity of 5man metas and the less impactful metas of 20man; also people want it and it can't mix with 20man (for competition).

[crusadernero]

Of course; even 20man has metas; it's impossible to eliminate them entirely. But: they are less extremist compared to 5man because the game has 12 classes; the smaller the gametype is the more brutal the metaing (e.g. every single world record of 5mans with no exception at all for months had a frost mage); this is about bringing a middle ground between 5man and 20man in that regard.

Also people just want to play it (we keep hearing of that demand); I think most 20man raiders would love it especially because it will not disrupt their 20man instances since it would be in its own instances and most of them who hate m+: would love 10man; also this thread is filled to the brim with people who find m+ excessively overrated as a gear path so reducing it a little won't hurt.

If it was an addition to dungeons(fewer than normal) & raids, knowing this community - most people would think they had to do it every week and complain if it didnt work out 100%

[epigramx]

If it was an addition to dungeons(fewer than normal) & raids, knowing this community - most people would think they had to do it every week and complain if it didnt work out 100%

It's still a net gain. Right now 5manning is quite excessive; they keep spamming us with at least 8 of them on the launch itself; then: they keep adding more during the expansion.

Slow down devs; 20man is more balanced and then you spam us with multiple 5man dungeons that can be a neverending grind on top; just make a couple of 10mans instead/too.

[mojusk]

before m+ dungeons were dead content after a month

[AcidX]

We need more variety. Much more. I dont play M+ the whole season because it gets fucking boring. Tyrannical and Fortified is bad. Just remove it and give it a new affix. Wouldnt mind moving environments etc