A new world record of m+ popped up and: what a surprise: there's a frost mage again.

[epigramx]

The 5man gametype in general is extremist with its metas; you keep seeing the same handful of specs on and on for months and for an entire patch or even an entire expansion; this is because the game has 12 classes and dozens of specs so even if 20man can still have metas: they are extremely diminished there because even if you stack 5 druids: you'll still have room for others' utilites and passives at the very least.

This is why the 5man gametype should be reduced by just releasing a couple of instances less; make those instances exclusive 10man mythic raids; people love it and it would not disrupt the competition in 20man instances and it's a nice middle ground between the extremist metas of a 5man and the more complete 20man gametype.

[kamuimac]

The 5man gametype in general is extremist with its metas; you keep seeing the same handful of specs on and on for months and for an entire patch or even an entire expansion; this is because the game has 12 classes and dozens of specs so even if 20man can still have metas: they are extremely diminished there because even if you stack 5 druids: you'll still have room for others' utilizes and passives at the very least.

This is why the 5man gametype should be reduced by just releasing a couple of instances less; make those instances exclusive 10man mythic raids; people love it and it would not disrupt the competition in 20man instances and it's a nice middle ground between the extremist metas of a 5man and the more complete 20man gametype.

albeit frost mage requires very specific gameplay in dungeons and whole team being able to pull around it.

if you dont chain huge aoe pull only do normal safe pull frost mages do garbage dmg - especially if tank moves out from frost orb . and in dungeons below +20 most people have no clue how to pull around having frost mage in group

[T-34]

albeit frost mage requires very specific gameplay in dungeons and whole team being able to pull around it.

if you dont chain huge aoe pull only do normal safe pull frost mages do garbage dmg - especially if tank moves out from frost orb . and in dungeons below +20 most people have no clue how to pull around having frost mage in group

So if I understand you correctly then it isn't enough "just to bring a frost mage and faceroll the dungeon"?
It also requires that not only the frost mage, but also the rest of the group optimize the whole dungeon run around the frost mage's abilities and play to the best of their abilities?

If that is true then this isn't any different from any cutting edge sport, online or not, where small differences in tactics and skill decides who wins or not.

Edit:
If bringing a frost mage is a question of being able to do a 29 or 30 then it is fine.
If bringing a frost mage is a question of being able to do a 29 or 25 then it is not fine.

[MatthewOU2015]

Frost mage reminds me of BFA fire mage. It requires the group to play around the mage. In coordinated groups frost will be OP but pugs it'll be trash

[LTN]

Strong aoe spec excels in aoe situations more news at 11

[Makabreska]

Another epigramx thread in which he wonders why top of the top PvE content is completed by select few best performing specs.

[Karawaka]

I dont get the point of this thread. World class group looks for specific specs for extreme content? Is op mad that his spec isnt represented? Or are they just not that level of skill and mad other people are better frost mages

[MonsieuRoberts]

"It's not fair that the best spec/comp doesn't focus on my class & spec. Therefore, nobody should be allowed to compete. Who agrees?"

[VinceVega]

The 5man gametype in general is extremist with its metas; you keep seeing the same handful of specs on and on for months and for an entire patch or even an entire expansion; this is because the game has 12 classes and dozens of specs so even if 20man can still have metas: they are extremely diminished there because even if you stack 5 druids: you'll still have room for others' utilizes and passives at the very least.

This is why the 5man gametype should be reduced by just releasing a couple of instances less; make those instances exclusive 10man mythic raids; people love it and it would not disrupt the competition in 20man instances and it's a nice middle ground between the extremist metas of a 5man and the more complete 20man gametype.

But who cares about what the best of the best do?
On the top there will ALWAYS be a meta unless you completly make very class exactly the same no differences.
Or force a specific class/spec setup to be played.

Any other change just moves the meta in another direction.
In 10 man it is still harder to get a spot in the top in a off meta class than in a 20man...

So why introduce another meta-trap then?
10 Man is no middleground at all.

20 man is that. 10 man is marginally better than 5 man.

I enjoy 5 man content very much. 10 man was always on the easier side compared too 20 man when it comes to raiding becuase of reduced mechanics.

TLDR: Current roster of content is good and should ot be changed. 5 man instances 10 to 25 flex up to heroic and locked 20 man for balance reasons in Mythic raiding

[Miffinat0r]

At launch of SL--Frost Mages were hot garbage. Easily one of the worst DPS classes out there because of the pre-launch nerfs.

Glad to see it at the top.

Large reason I quit was during that time as a Frost Mage at launch, was effin brutal. I also hate Fire I find it's too twitchy for me to enjoy.

[Argorwal]

The real culprit is infinite scaling.

Imagine the class stacking a mythic raid would do if it also had infinite scaling.

But IMO since the rewards cap out fairly low in its scaling, in a range than any 5 specs at all can complete it with ease, it’s not a big deal.

A meta will always exist, and infinite scaling by definition will always push tighter and tighter metas.

[Temp name]

This is why the 5man gametype should be reduced by just releasing a couple of instances less;

How about no?
I want more m+, not less. If you want 10 man, why not just add in *more* content instead of stealing content from somewhere else?

And seriously, you can do any m+ content that gives actual rewards (up to and including 20s) with whatever classes you want. The problem only starts to show itself when you need about twice as much damage in 27-29s

edit: All tank classes have at least one person above 3k io, half of the healer specs do while the last are above 2950, and all dps classes have a spec above 2950 as well while the highest is 3144. Classes are relatively well balanced, but obviously at the very tip you'll have people who prefer one thing

[Zentail]

Top 20 runs at the moment. Only 1 group doesn't have a Frost Mage. However, it's the difference between a +29 and a +30 (and a single +31). Also, of those 20 runs, 12 of them on the same group of people. Then there's a couple of double listed groups in that top 20 as well.

Overall, a group without a Frost mage is in the top 6 groups. This doesn't seem like there's a problem at all. Also note: if the top group does a certain composition, 90% of players want to copy it because they assume it is meta (and it may be), so you will start to see that exact group composition all over the place, even if it requires a specific style of playing most players can't match.

Also know, at +30/31 level dungeons when you're trying to push for that #1 spot, it becomes a little less about meta and more about people rerunning the dungeons they've run, the exact same route, same everything, just hoping that their 37% crit chance happens to crit 52% of the time for them by luck. Kinda like in D3 when pushing GRs that people will rerun hoping they'll get a Power shrine immediately and then another before it falls of.

[MoanaLisa]

Reduce dungeons and add 10-man mythic raids that would exclude many classes and be subject to the same strict metas as dungeons.

That doesn't solve anything nor does it really make any sense.

[escott410]

Considering how M+ is a major portion of the game and even has an esports scene, they could attempt to balance the game from the the ground up with smaller content first than from the top down with raids leaving whatever balance is left. M+ has generally seen more or less the same classes for quite a long time being the meta and that perception affects everyone's decision with what classes they want to bring.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I dont get the point of this thread.

To be honest, there isn't a lot of point to any of OP's threads.

[Alroxas]

The 5man gametype in general is extremist with its metas;

But only for the 0.001% of the player base. For the rest of the player base it shouldn't be a factor because it doesn't really matter because of the following:

a) Most players aren't pushing M+ at the extreme top range (aka pushing +29 or higher)
b) For most keys under +26, comp meta doesn't nearly matter.

As proven time and time again: Non-meta classes/specs can clear high content.

Case in point: Raider.IO's Break the Meta Season 2 rankings.

Repeat after me: The Meta doesn't matter... The meta doesn't matter...

[Hastis]

why you want to delete content? instead just make another option for players just add those 10 man dungeons and leave 5man as it is. For me they could add new dungeon in every X.1 X.2 X.3 patch of expansion like it was during legion for example. I want more, not less moreover you cant balance mmorpg something is always better than the others. Your spec can be best in any future patch or it can be trash but if you are not hardcore top100 player you shouldnt even care about it and just play what makes fun

[Nynax]

So if I understand you correctly then it isn't enough "just to bring a frost mage and faceroll the dungeon"?
It also requires that not only the frost mage, but also the rest of the group optimize the whole dungeon run around the frost mage's abilities and play to the best of their abilities?

If that is true then this isn't any different from any cutting edge sport, online or not, where small differences in tactics and skill decides who wins or not.

Edit:
If bringing a frost mage is a question of being able to do a 29 or 30 then it is fine.
If bringing a frost mage is a question of being able to do a 29 or 25 then it is not fine.

That's exactly what he means. It was the same with Fire mage, and the same with boomy convoke pre-nerf. It's likely the same with every top end comp to have the one guy that goes ham while everyone prioritizes controlling the situation.

[MrLachyG]

The 5man gametype in general is extremist with its metas; you keep seeing the same handful of specs on and on for months and for an entire patch or even an entire expansion; this is because the game has 12 classes and dozens of specs so even if 20man can still have metas: they are extremely diminished there because even if you stack 5 druids: you'll still have room for others' utilizes and passives at the very least.

This is why the 5man gametype should be reduced by just releasing a couple of instances less; make those instances exclusive 10man mythic raids; people love it and it would not disrupt the competition in 20man instances and it's a nice middle ground between the extremist metas of a 5man and the more complete 20man gametype.

you seem to think that making a 10 man mythic dungeon mode will magically change things; it won't. the top performing classes will ALWAYS be at the top of the rankings and will always be chosen first by the absolute elite of those who do dungeons

to regular people, it won't matter as much.