How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[Triceron]

Just because you pay a sub doesn't entitle you to be able to instantly fly in every zone or equip two legendaries either but that doesn't stop people from complaining about that either does it. Zinger.

Nothing in this game should be given to players without some input, not flying, not gear, not mounts, NOTHING. Put in the time to earn new things.

Then put in the time. That you're complaining about not wanting to earn currency as a casual player doesn't change the fact that you'd still have to put in the work to earn other things in the game regardless. It isn't handed to you just because you pay a sub.

Legendaries and flying aren't handed to you just because you pay a sub either. You gotta work to obtain both.

[NineSpine]

I agree with this statement other than end bosses in Mythic Raids, also for PVP, it needs to be top brackets. Could you imagine getting a legendary weapon along with the glad mount?

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Because someone killing squirrels in Hillsbrad should not be as powerful as a dragon slayer. While you're crafting a helm from squirrel hides, I'm looting well crafted weapons of fallen warriors trying to kill said dragon. This should appear cosmetically, title-wise, and I should be more powerful when facing off against the guy killing squirrels. I, as a player, should see that, and it should feel good, and the guy killing squirrels should see the eipcness and want to achieve it himself. Creates motivation to be better.

Saying what “should” be over and over again while providing no reasons why.

[wushootaki]

By Putting the emphasis back on ROLE-PLAYING in the mmorpg.

[NineSpine]

Then put in the time. That you're complaining about not wanting to earn currency as a casual player doesn't change the fact that you'd still have to put in the work to earn other things in the game regardless. It isn't handed to you just because you pay a sub.

Legendaries and flying aren't handed to you just because you pay a sub either. You gotta work to obtain both.

“How dare you expect fun and entertaining from a video game you pay for?”

It’s crazy how much the wow brain worms have done a number on y’all.

[kenn9530]

These are other humans, if they worked weeks or months accumulating tokens/collecting equipment, it doesn't matter where they got the gear from, let it be from M+ or Raiding.

This scuffed mindset is trully baffling me. After extensively playing Destiny 2, I want nothing more but for other people to succeed, be geared, and enjoy activities together. Bungie doesn't discriminate casual players, if you put in play time you get rewarded.

No if there is different levels of difficulty in content there needs to be different rewards otherwise its pointless if anyone can get the best gear, that is not rewarding gameplay, players who dont do the highest level dont need the best gear, in destiny you are just rewarded for how much you play not what content you do, plus the content in destiny is mostly the same as the hardest things are not that much harder.

[NineSpine]

No if there is different levels of difficulty in content there needs to be different rewards otherwise its pointless if anyone can get the best gear, that is not rewarding gameplay, players who dont do the highest level dont need the best gear, in destiny you are just rewarded for how much you play not what content you do, plus the content in destiny is mostly the same as the hardest things are not that much harder.

If you think grandmaster nightfalls are the same difficulty as the strike playlist, you are delusional.

[kenn9530]

PvP should give the best gear. It is far more skilled than killing some scripted pve encounter.

Content that involve 20 ppl is far more challenging that PvP, so no PvP shouldnt give any gear equal to mythic raiding.

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If you think grandmaster nightfalls are the same difficulty as the strike playlist, you are delusional.

All the content in destiny is easy, nothing is really challenging in the game.

[MoanaLisa]

I made a longer post at #74 which has my ideas about how to go about the problem of people wanting to play in different areas of the game and how player power could accumulate.

I didn't explicitly say so but the idea of what you do being more important than what you wear and allowing those that do more with more difficulty to scale their power more quickly avoids the entire notion of casual and progression. Everyone progresses by doing stuff they like in the game. It can be as slow or as quickly as you like (assuming liberal caps) but player power is more a function of what players choose to do than trudging through a design where raid loggers have to be out in the world a lot to assure their progression.

It would be nice to get off the idea of casuals being lesser beings. Some are excellent players who keep their skills as sharp as they need to be. There are plenty of everyday-for-several-hours players who never attain high skill levels. Time in game does matter but it's not everything and smart players don't necessarily need to go the hard-core route to keep up.

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...players who dont do the highest level dont need the best gear...

They do need to feel like they are progressing though, something the proponents of what is in the quote often forget or more likely ignore. And there's nothing at all wrong with players having some of the best gear if they've done the necessary things to attain it. It may just take longer for them and that's fine. Artificial ceilings on progression for those who, for whatever reason, don't want or cannot access or get through the high difficulty stuff are bad.

[Aedruid]

Saying what “should” be over and over again while providing no reasons why.

I answered the question. Increase your reading comprehension.

[NineSpine]

Content that involve 20 ppl is far more challenging that PvP, so no PvP shouldnt give any gear equal to mythic raiding.

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All the content in destiny is easy, nothing is really challenging in the game.

Waiting for the dumbest person on your team to stop making mistakes is not hard.

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Waiting for the dumbest person on your team to stop making mistakes is not hard.

“I want other people to wish they were as cool as me” is not an argument for making a game more fun.

[Ekis]

It would be nice to get off the idea of casuals being lesser beings. Some are excellent players who keep their skills as sharp as they need to be. There are plenty of everyday-for-several-hours players who never attain high skill levels. Time in game does matter but it's not everything and smart players don't necessarily need to go the hard-core route to keep up.

Topics such as these tend to paint "casual" with a negative connotation but I don't think that's what most are trying to convey. Plenty of self-proclaimed casuals are great, but there is a vocal group that believes that they deserve what the "hardcores" are getting without having to put in the same time or effort in doing so (not sure but someone in the thread literally said they deserved same because they pay a sub which was odd). I will say people also need to clarify what they mean when they say things such as "casual", "hardcore", or "progression player".

The problem is, a lot of casual players feel like they "are excellent players who keep their skills as sharp as they need to be" when in reality many of them are "everyday-for-several-hours players who never attain high skill levels" and therein lies the problem because they feel that they deserve the same rewards for simply participating. Those players give the casual moniker an almost negative connotation because of that and nobody can ever know how to separate the two without having played with them to figure it out or saying something that clearly shows their thinking.

For example, I currently am a casual player but by some standards I'm definitely more hardcore. I was casual when I cleared Mythic raids, but to some that's hardcore. I raid-logged when I could, didn't always farm to prepare for the upcoming week, and at many times ONLY raided and didn't touch other content in the game. That's why I say people should define what they mean when they say use those defining words.

[NineSpine]

Topics such as these tend to paint "casual" with a negative connotation but I don't think that's what most are trying to convey. Plenty of self-proclaimed casuals are great, but there is a vocal group that believes that they deserve what the "hardcores" are getting without having to put in the same time or effort in doing so (not sure but someone in the thread literally said they deserved same because they pay a sub which was odd). I will say people also need to clarify what they mean when they say things such as "casual", "hardcore", or "progression player".

The problem is, a lot of casual players feel like they "are excellent players who keep their skills as sharp as they need to be" when in reality many of them are "everyday-for-several-hours players who never attain high skill levels" and therein lies the problem because they feel that they deserve the same rewards for simply participating. Those players give the casual moniker an almost negative connotation because of that and nobody can ever know how to separate the two without having played with them to figure it out.

It’s not about who deserves what. There is no “deserves”. This is an entertainment product featuring talking cow ladies. To even discuss people “deserving” anything is ludicrous.

You either make the game fun for regular people, or you make a niche game seven people play and no video game studio will want to keep investing money in. Your choice.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Notice how your argument has a lot of "It should be this way" but pretty much know "This is why it should be this way".

Can you articulate how the game would be made worse if everyone could target BiS gear, rather than just telling us what "should" be.

Everyone already can target it.

But speaking as what is probably a casual MMO/WoW player these days, getting BiS loot from fishing or a daily would not make me feel good, so I legit cannot understand why this discussion would be had in the first place. In these cases, would that content scale or something and thats why better loot is needed?

I would personally rather have actual content than meaningless loot. In vanilla I absolutely loved all the quests and content around professions. I actual made a tons of money, but then you had quests sending you to raids/10mans/5mans and all over the world to get special mats and reagents. It was killer. World quests as content? I don't know, they aren't varied enough to be that fun. I don't understand why someone would consider that "their" content.

Instead of arguing over whether fishing or world quests should give BiS, why aren't we demanding content that doesn't require high end PVP, raiding, or I guess Mythics?

[neik]

No if there is different levels of difficulty in content there needs to be different rewards otherwise its pointless if anyone can get the best gear, that is not rewarding gameplay, players who dont do the highest level dont need the best gear, in destiny you are just rewarded for how much you play not what content you do, plus the content in destiny is mostly the same as the hardest things are not that much harder.

rewards should be based on the effort and the challenge put in

this isnt discrimination,this entire concept of participation trophy is pure toxicity to us as a species

I'm sticking to my guns, there is nothing that I said that wouldn't qualify as Wrath of the Lich King systems, which itself wasn't biased in any way towards casual playerbase and was rather liked by everyone.

[Ekis]

It’s not about who deserves what. There is no “deserves”. This is an entertainment product featuring talking cow ladies. To even discuss people “deserving” anything is ludicrous.

You either make the game fun for regular people, or you make a niche game seven people play and no video game studio will want to keep investing money in. Your choice.

When everybody is special, nobody is. Most MMORPGs did not get to where they are, especially long-lasting ones, without it being a niche in some manner or another.

Playing basketball is a form of entertainment but not everybody is good enough to deserve a spot on an NBA team. People don't aspire to be regular, they tend to aspire to be the best, whether that's in business, sports, or even video games.

[Akillahz]

You lost the argument when you compared a video game to a job. We don’t want the video game to be like a job. That’s entirely the problem, and why you are wrong.

It’s the same reason that if Netflix made me watch a movie I didn’t like in order to “earn” the right to watch one I do like, I wouldn’t pay for Netflix. Would you take someone seriously if they said “no, it’s so much more FUN because it’s like A JOB where you have to do things you don’t like in order to earn the right to the fun!”

I'm not saying WoW is or should feel like a job cuz if it does, quit the game. My point was that you should get appropriately rewarded for the time and effort you put into something and this goes for everything in life, including video games, so if you dont put much time or effort into something, you can't be expecting a big payoff.

Also if you need BiS gear to start having fun in WoW, maybe it just isn't the game for you. Also a lot of people like doing raids, mythic+ or high rated PvP to gear up, you dont seem to like it but that doesnt mean nobody does so saying that you have to do things you dont like for the right to have fun is a problem for you, but I dont see it that way because the gearing up process is a big part of the fun for me and without it, i'd play the game much less.

Someone else mentioned it here. Your BiS gear is catered to the content you do. You do casual content? Well your BiS will be on a casual level as well like the 233 Korthia gear. That gear is a big grind getting the reputation up and the resources to upgrade it but hey you either spend a long time on gearing up or you put more effort into more challenging content but it's one of the two, you can't expect Blizzard to just mail you BiS gear, then you just want maximum reward for minimal effort aka lazy.

[NineSpine]

Everyone already can target it.

But speaking as what is probably a casual MMO/WoW player these days, getting BiS loot from fishing or a daily would not make me feel good, so I legit cannot understand why this discussion would be had in the first place. In these cases, would that content scale or something and thats why better loot is needed?

I would personally rather have actual content than meaningless loot. In vanilla I absolutely loved all the quests and content around professions. I actual made a tons of money, but then you had quests sending you to raids/10mans/5mans and all over the world to get special mats and reagents. It was killer. World quests as content? I don't know, they aren't varied enough to be that fun. I don't understand why someone would consider that "their" content.

Instead of arguing over whether fishing or world quests should give BiS, why aren't we demanding content that doesn't require high end PVP, raiding, or I guess Mythics?

There’s more content than you think there is. They just mash it into really uninteresting and unrewarding systems so it is easy to overlook.

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I'm not saying WoW is or should feel like a job cuz if it does, quit the game. My point was that you should get appropriately rewarded for the time and effort you put into something and this goes for everything in life, including video games, so if you dont put much time or effort into something, you can't be expecting a big payoff.

Also if you need BiS gear to start having fun in WoW, maybe it just isn't the game for you. Also a lot of people like doing raids, mythic+ or high rated PvP to gear up, you dont seem to like it but that doesnt mean nobody does so saying that you have to do things you dont like for the right to have fun is a problem for you, but I dont see it that way because the gearing up process is a big part of the fun for me and without it, i'd play the game much less.

Someone else mentioned it here. Your BiS gear is catered to the content you do. You do casual content? Well your BiS will be on a casual level as well like the 233 Korthia gear. That gear is a big grind getting the reputation up and the resources to upgrade it but hey you either spend a long time on gearing up or you put more effort into more challenging content but it's one of the two, you can't expect Blizzard to just mail you BiS gear, then you just want maximum reward for minimal effort aka lazy.

Would you subscribe to Netflix if they made you watch bad movies to “earn” the right to watch good ones? Would you call anyone who didn’t like that “lazy”? This is such a silly argument.

You are arguing that a game, which is an entertaining escape, needs to be like an office job.

[Triceron]

“How dare you expect fun and entertaining from a video game you pay for?”

It’s crazy how much the wow brain worms have done a number on y’all.

Why did you even bother replying to me of you aren't addressing anything I said? Make your silly comments without tagging me next time if you have nothing worth discussing.

[Adamas102]

Simply because the people who do put time/effort into the game will feel cheated. It's why the cosmetic rewards from MoP/WoD challenge mode dungeons and the Legion mage tower were unobtainable after the expansion. These things were challenging content at the time, people put time and effort into improving themselves, getting better at the game to beat this content and feel accomplished + are rewarded with transmogs, titles, mounts,... They can proudly wear/use. If they kept these rewards obtainable in the expansion after, it would be trivial content, everyone would be able to do it without effort and still get rewarded with the same cosmetics which would cause these cosmetics to lose in value/prestige, especially to the person who did it when it was challenging, they will feel like they wasted their time and energy trying so hard.

I wouldn’t feel cheated if all the Mage Tower skins were made available through easier content. I didn’t acquire them to make myself feel good in comparison to a bunch of strangers on the internet. I did those challenges because I found them fun (for the most part) and that wouldn’t change if the rewards were put on a vendor an expansion later.

[NineSpine]

When everybody is special, nobody is. Most MMORPGs did not get to where they are, especially long-lasting ones, without it being a niche in some manner or another.

Playing basketball is a form of entertainment but not everybody is good enough to deserve a spot on an NBA team. People don't aspire to be regular, they tend to aspire to be the best, whether that's in business, sports, or even video games.

The vast vast vast majority of players haven’t deluded themselves into thinking wow is the nba, trust me.