Sepulcher of the First Ones World Race

[Xath]

The big balance mistake imho was Halondrus. Rygelon and Anduin were around 150 pulls IIRC, and Lords less than 100. But Halondrus was definitely too much compared to the earlier mid boss walls like Fetid devourer.

Because it was originally the penultimate boss. They took the 9.2 raid and slapped on the bosses they had completed for the 9.3 raid. There is a reason we completely leave the single contained area of the first 8 to an entirely different contained area for the last 3.

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The sad truth on why Halondrus was hard, is that those people are just not exceptional players or at least not all 20 they invite.

They literally pay other people for 12 hours a day to give up their loot so the pivotal reason they are first is gear.

If you are going to troll make it just a little less obvious.

[epigramx]

Halondrus was not as hard as people think. Those people were just bad at personal responsibility while most other bosses could rely being carried by the healers or following a marked player or one of their gigantic weakauras.

Everything becomes clearer once you understand what even Roger Brown and Scripe implied yesterday; a pivotal edge is gearing; they are nothing special compared to any other top 100 guild if the gear was common.

[Xath]

I think this is why a common suggestion is that Blizz makes a tournament realm for WFR. Since Blizz doesn't 'officially' support it yet overtunes the raid and holds nerfs hostage in consideration for the WFR, having a separate server where you can overtune the raid to oblivion without affecting the extreme majority of other mythic raiders would be a step in the right direction. No need for split runs and massive gold dumps, you can just create a character with full heroic gear and whatever you need.

While I didn't have much of an opinion about this in the beginning, the more Blizz screws with the players with this lukewarm position on not officially supporting the WFR while bending over backwards to cater to the WFR... well, I think it would be healthier for the game and everyone involved in the WFR if the WFR (and all the baggage it contains) was isolated on a tournament server.

Yup this is the actual solution but blizz really doesn't want to do it.

[Noctesolis]

Ye so are work hours and holidays, but to my knowledge nobody forced Liquid’s weak team to play 14 hours a day. They did it willingly. And other guilds are still going every day to this minute. Just accept it. They’re not only second rate but also bad losers and weak mentally.

Calling a bunch of kids "weak mentally" is pretty ignorant. Most of these guys are in their early 20's, they knew they had lost, conceded, and decided for their mental health it wasn't worth pushing on. I'm glad your brain was fully developed by the time you were 20, you must be some sort of A-specimen created in a lab. There's a reason you can't even rent a car until you're 25...

[epigramx]

If you are going to troll make it just a little less obvious.

If you're going to not have an argument, don't start the personal attacks. Those people objectively pay people to give up their loot so they are objectively at a pivotal advantage above all other top 100 guilds who might have higher skilled players.

[Biomega]

Halondrus was not as hard as people think. Those people were just bad at personal responsibility

"These bosses are all easy. These people just don't play super well. Me? Oh I could be a world-first raider, I just don't want to. Why are all my characters 5/11 normal? BRUH I HAVE A LIVE I CAN'T PAY PEOPLE TO GIVE ME GEAR THAT'S WHY."

[gobarj]

It's a shitfest, because you can clearly see some inferior parts of the "top" guilds such as max getting passive-aggressive in the middle of their Rygelon pulls and the rest telling him to shut up and focus or the audio environment of echo being an agitated mess both of which problems are literally top-5,000-guild tier and should never even approach their existence in the top 50 guilds.

It may sound hard to believe this is real but it's easy to understand because those people have one pivotal unfair advantage that can be fixed:

1) Ban entirely any and all paying-other-people-to-give-up-their-loot; even if it's hard to be enforced it's irrelevant; it ruins skill based runs.

2) Restrict in general the entire concept of splitting; that means even if it's the same guild; too much time does not equal skill.

3) Try as much as possible to not rely on gear ; the "top" players admit it openly; it's early-gearing that wins it.

You must've brought the Rygelon part up at least 4-5 times by now. We get it, you hate Max with every fiber in your body. Message is clear, no need to repeat constantly.

[epigramx]

"These bosses are all easy. These people just don't play super well. Me? Oh I could be a world-first raider, I just don't want to. Why are all my characters 5/11 normal? BRUH I HAVE A LIVE I CAN'T PAY PEOPLE TO GIVE ME GEAR THAT'S WHY."

Nice strawman, the argument is that they are nothing special compared top 50 or top 100 guilds who don't literally pay other people to give up their gold (and not that they are nothing special compared to a common player).

This game has exceptional players even in the top 400 who don't have that much time so claiming that they are the literal best players among the top 100 is gargantuanly false.

[Dranged]

Calling a bunch of kids "weak mentally" is pretty ignorant. Most of these guys are in their early 20's, they knew they had lost, conceded, and decided for their mental health it wasn't worth pushing on. I'm glad your brain was fully developed by the time you were 20, you must be some sort of A-specimen created in a lab. There's a reason you can't even rent a car until you're 25...

Claiming that they had to stop progress for mental health reasons is a big slap in the face to people who actually have real mental health problems. Just admit that they had lost motivation because they were beaten.

[Xath]

Former champs, laughable. The only reason why the world firsts have come is because method has broken apart. Now that echo has completely renewed itself they look weak again. Wasn't a surprise at all.

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Europe is a continent and a confederation of 27 european states. Not a nation, not a country, what so ever.

Limit's first world first was stomping on Method? Then Method now Echo jacked both their main tanks with Lightee coming back after the split happened to rejoin them in CN. They don't look weak Echo just prepared better and more importantly has a bunch of people who dealt with this length of tier before in KJ Liquid now Limit doesn't.

[epigramx]

You must've brought the Rygelon part up at least 4-5 times by now. We get it, you hate Max with every fiber in your body. Message is clear, no need to repeat constantly.

Nobody cares about liquid, it's just one example. I had also said multiple times that echo has a terrible audio environment that reminds of discord fights in top-5,000 casual guilds; they directly said yesterday what a pivotal advantage they had is; splits (i.e. paying other people to give up their loot for 12 hours a day for weeks).

[Xath]

If you're going to not have an argument, don't start the personal attacks. Those people objectively pay people to give up their loot so they are objectively at a pivotal advantage above all other top 100 guilds who might have higher skilled players.

Sorry those other top 100 don't have higher skilled players. Sorry if you are in the rank 99 video guild and super proud of your 95 best on farm. They are killing bosses that are tuned for at least half a tier higher than their current ilvl if not a full tier. They were going into jailer with most of the raid around 273. Jailer drops 285 gear. The thing that makes WF level players way better is they can do that farm output during progression without knowing a fight in advance via a video

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Claiming that they had to stop progress for mental health reasons is a big slap in the face to people who actually have real mental health problems. Just admit that they had lost motivation because they were beaten.

Preserving mental health aka not continuing to run into a brick wall with lost motivation while losing more and more people each day to rl obligations. Not sure what your issue is.

[Noctesolis]

Claiming that they had to stop progress for mental health reasons is a big slap in the face to people who actually have real mental health problems. Just admit that they had lost motivation because they were beaten.

Gee, I wonder where motivation stems from... That would be mental health. Learn more about what you're saying before saying things. This is literally like educating a 12 year old troll. They knew they were beaten hence they conceded so for the sake of their sanity they decided to take a mental health break.

[Barzotti]

Nice strawman, the argument is that they are nothing special compared top 50 or top 100 guilds who don't literally pay other people to give up their gold (and not that they are nothing special compared to a common player).

This game has exceptional players even in the top 400 who don't have that much time so claiming that they are the literal best players among the top 100 is gargantuanly false.

You coudn't be farther from the truth. Only 25 guilds killed Halondrus even with double legendaries. The last guild who killed Halondrus had a 271,6 average ilvl compared to Echo's 265,7. The top 50-100 guilds are carried by gear, nerfs and strats WAY more than Echo/Liquid. No one is denying that there are exceptional players in the top 400. But you won't convince that none of the top 400 players have the available time to try to play in the top 5 guilds.

And the very few players recruited by Echo/Liquid come from top 5 guilds, not top 400. I guess Velo is an exception, but he was in a top 20-30 guild.

[Biomega]

Liquit is full of players of absolutely exceptional skill. They have incredible pilots behind their characters, some of whom might well be the best in the world at their class (like Imfiredup playing Fire Mage).

But to be the #1 GUILD you need more than just skill. You need mental fortitude, willpower, discipline, drive, and many other things that go beyond playing a WoW character really well. Many of those they have; but for some, they are still lacking, too.

[epigramx]

Sorry those other top 100 don't have higher skilled players. Sorry if you are in the rank 99 video guild and super proud of your 95 best on farm. They are killing bosses that are tuned for at least half a tier higher than their current ilvl if not a full tier. They were going into jailer with most of the raid around 273. Jailer drops 285 gear. The thing that makes WF level players way better is they can do that farm output during progression without knowing a fight in advance via a video

Nice evading the actual argument. Nowhere do you address the absolute and objective fact they are literally paying other people to give up their loot and most other guilds in the top 50 and top 100 do not do that.

If you want to take this game seriously take the only objectively good choice about it and propose:

1) Banning of all and any paying other people to give up their loot

2) Banning of all and any splits even if it's the same guild

3) Reduction of the importance of gearing in general.

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You coudn't be farther from the truth. Only 25 guilds killed Halondrus even with double legendaries.

That's half the story, because a very low percentage had as ludicrously good gear in the top 100.

Those people literally pay others to give up their loot and it should be banned.

[Barzotti]

That's half the story, because a very low percentage had as ludicrously good gear in the top 100.

Those people literally pay others to give up their loot and it should be banned.

Average ilvl of the guilds on their first Halondrus kill (not taking into account the chinese guilds, the average ilvl on kill doesn't appear on R.io):

Echo: 265,7
Liquid: 264,8
SK Pieces: 264,8
Method: 266,8
BDGG: 266,9
FatSharkYes: 266,3
Aversion: 267,6
Zero Empathy: 270,3
Soniqs Imperative: 267,6
Instant Dollars: 266,9
Exposed: 272,1
Lotus: 270,9
Club Camel: 272,1
Honestly: 269,6
Банхаммер: 270,2
Korruptio: 270,5
Impact: 270,4
iKTB: 270,4
MNM: 271,6

So, tell me again how the top 5 guilds just happen to have more gear when they have 5 ilvl lower on average than top 20-25 guilds who had double legendaries for some of them?

Your posts reeks of someone who thought he was hot shit, applied to a big guild, got declined/did an awful trial and keeps repeating to himself "those guys crushing me on the dps meters are just nerds spamming the game, I could totally be on their level if only I wanted to".

[Thelin]

Claiming that they had to stop progress for mental health reasons is a big slap in the face to people who actually have real mental health problems. Just admit that they had lost motivation because they were beaten.

unless you're going to show a scan of your Ph.D. in either psychology or behavioral sciences you don't have a leg to stand on arguing they have no right to say such a thing.

[vulfrika]

If you want to take this game seriously take the only objectively good choice about it and propose:

Just make gear ineffectual in Mythic mode. I've never been a fan of having to go hard af for the first month of raiding, before the raidgroup eventually just outgear some of the more challenging and fun mechanics.

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Claiming that they had to stop progress for mental health reasons is a big slap in the face to people who actually have real mental health problems. Just admit that they had lost motivation because they were beaten.

Are you being retarded on purpose?

[facefist]

The sad truth on why Halondrus was hard, is that those people are just not exceptional players or at least not all 20 they invite.

They literally pay other people for 12 hours a day to give up their loot so the pivotal reason they are first is gear.

Here we go again, the "I have the talent to be anything but I am nothing because I don't want to put in the time and effort. But trust me, Usain Bolt is not fast, he just literally spends 24 hours a day to optimize his running which is the only reason he is faster than me."

You do realize that many of these people were getting WF's even before the loot trading became a thing?

Those people objectively pay people to give up their loot so they are objectively at a pivotal advantage above all other top 100 guilds who might have higher skilled players.

I am probably falling for a obvious troll at this point, but not a single guild outside the top5 would be able to compete against Echo if they were given the exact same gear and the same hours. What you don't seem to understand here is that Echo/Liquid etc. create the tactics, which every other guild copies. I mean I've been in a rank 15 guild and all we did was watch their kill videos and do the same. It's a whole different game for them.

But I think your trolling becomes obvious when you say that it's easy for them when they do it with traded gear, when in reality your other top100 guilds kill those bosses with much better gear. World 19th Halondrus 271,5 ilvl and Echo did it with 264. The 100th guild is probably gonna have like 273-275 ilvl, so yeah good troll bro.