Is Dragonsworn the new class? How sure are we about that and how would it be?

[username993720]

You linked Tyrande in a Warden skin. Yiu realize she doesn't have Warden abilities with that skin either, right?

Those are literally just skins. Class skins would work fine representing that.

I realize that. I also realize they share many themes, from Elune to Owls, to Glaives.

You can't put it as a class skin without a class that can represent it. Which, doesn't exist at the moment.

[Triceron]

I realize that. I also realize they share many themes, from Elune to Owls, to Glaives.

You can't put it as a class skin without a class that can represent it. Which, doesn't exist at the moment.

Yes, Wardens indeed have a connection to Priestess of the Moon. Maiev was a former Priestess, under Tyrande. Her origin is very much tied to that of Elune and with Owls, so I'm fine with you making that connection.

However, simply having a connection does not mean they are the same, or that they are merely aspects of the same class. We know multiple classes can all source the same powers and use them differently. And clearly, we are already shown Wardens use their powers and connections to Elune and to Owls differently than any Priestess of the Moon. This is enough information to warrant them being different classes, much like the fine lines between Warrior and Blademaster or Paladins and Priests.

A Class skin is capable of representing this identity because it does not share itself as being a part of some other concept. A Class skin would be its own identity.

[username993720]

Yes, Wardens indeed have a connection to Priestess of the Moon. Maiev was a former Priestess, under Tyrande. Her origin is very much tied to that of Elune and with Owls, so I'm fine with you making that connection.

However, simply having a connection does not mean they are the same, or that they are merely aspects of the same class. We know multiple classes can all source the same powers and use them differently. And clearly, we are already shown Wardens use their powers and connections to Elune and to Owls differently than any Priestess of the Moon. This is enough information to warrant them being different classes, much like the fine lines between Warrior and Blademaster or Paladins and Priests.

Of course they are different. But, they could still be from the same class. Just like Lich spells have been allocated to Death Knights and Mages.
Initially, i thought the Sea Witch would be a natural aspect of a Ranger class. But, since Blizzard has been making a connection between Wardens and Dark Rangers with Dark Wardens, and the obvious connections between PotM and Wardens, i think they are being set up to be the connective glue between the two.
I once thought Warden would be a standalone class. This is no longer the case.

A Class skin is capable of representing this identity because it does not share itself as being a part of some other concept. A Class skin would be its own identity.

But, you need a similar gameplay. Which, you don't have.

[Triceron]

Of course they are different. But, they could still be from the same class. Just like Lich spells have been allocated to Death Knights and Mages.

Yes but Mages and DK's aren't Liches either.

Let's say you're a big fan of Liches, and want to play one officially in WoW. And let's say you were saying Lich abilities are already in Mage and DK classes. Now, would you say Mages and DK's allow you to play as a Lich? That if you wanted to play as a Lich, you should roll a Mage or a DK because they have Lich abilities?

The answer is easily no, a Mage and a DK does not represent playing as a Lich. The simple fact is a Lich would remain non-playable, and the closest you can do is roleplay as one. And the same right now exists if we're talking about Necromancers. Mages and DK's aren't Necromancers either, even though Necromancers have direct lore connections to both classes. You can't play a Necromancer, and a Necromancer is not part of any existing class.

Your argument that *they could still be from the same class* is the same bogus argument that could be used to say Death Knights can be Necromancers. Clearly, that is not possible, because a Class will only be itself, and not represent MULTIPLE identities. A Spec does not define an entire class.

If you're talking about a Warden spec for a Ranger class, you need to be fully aware that no matter how close the gameplay is, you'll never actually be a Night Elf Warden. Your class is a Ranger. You're a Warden-specced Ranger, and even if you had spells like Blink and Shadow Strike and Avatar of Vengeance, you'll still be a Ranger. And your Ranger will undoubtedly have origins that differ completely from the established Night Elf Wardens like Maiev.

That being said, Dark Ranger being a spec off a general Ranger class would also not be able to share origins with the Dark Rangers we have established in the lore. You would have to be talking about a new Ranger class that simply specializes in using dark magic. So instead of playing as a raised Undead Elf during the War of the Thorns, you'd be playing as a newly trained mortal Ranger who merely adopts the skillsets of a Dark Ranger. And if you really just wanted that, then Hunters are already capable of adopting the skillsets of a Dark Ranger through Sylvanas' Legendary drops.

Again, Class Skins would actually be the best way to approach this design. It would be a proper representation of lore without requiring new gameplay mechanics.

Initially, i thought the Sea Witch would be a natural aspect of a Ranger class. But, since Blizzard has been making a connection between Wardens and Dark Rangers with Dark Wardens, and the obvious connections between PotM and Wardens, i think they are being set up to be the connective glue between the two.
I once thought Warden would be a standalone class. This is no longer the case.

Except the connection Blizzard made was merely for the purpose of one individual becoming a Dark Warden for the sake of giving Maiev a personal connection to the Darkshore Warfront.

You could see this exact same narrative hook be used in Legion when Cordana Felsong was introduced as another variation of 'Dark Warden' who sided with Gul'dan and the Legion. And we can clearly see, there is no direct connection between Warlocks and Wardens, even though Cordana becoming a 'Dark Warden' was completely due to Gul'dan's doing. This wasn't a designer getting creative and wanting to introduce a new class connection, this was the writers wanting to give Maiev some personal connections to the ongoing narratives, otherwise she's literally a fish-out-of-water when presented any situation that doesn't involve chasing Illidan.

Sira Moonwarden and Cordana Felsong both served the same purpose, for different stories.

But, you need a similar gameplay. Which, you don't have.

To a Warden? Any number of classes could easily represent Wardens. All that needs to be figured out is how to adapt different weapon combinations and auto attack timing to that of a 1-hand wielded large Glaive attack.

Rogue suits the Warden well and already has shadowstep and fan of knives.
Ret Paladin could be visually tweaked to have all light-based spells be shadow instead.
Demon Hunter could also work since they already use Glaives and melee combat, and are very mobile.

[Sugani]

Let's say you're a big fan of Liches, and want to play one officially in WoW. And let's say you were saying Lich abilities are already in Mage and DK classes. Now, would you say Mages and DK's allow you to play as a Lich? That if you wanted to play as a Lich, you should roll a Mage or a DK because they have Lich abilities?

Just roll an undead frost necrolord mage. Boom, lich.

- - - Updated - - -

Class skins are stupid.

[pacotaco]

We stil don't really know the them of the expansion. Just that involves dragons. It could very well focus on the Life pantheon, in wich case a Night Warrior class (arden + sentinel + priest of the moon) would fit.
That's if even we get a new class

[Auburst]

Dragonsworn is a really sexy class. I want to objectify it to play it.

[kranur]

Until thet announce it, the certainty of what the new class will be or even if there will be a new class is 0.

If dragonsworn/dragon knight class will come to pass, it will probably be a mail class with tank/heal/dps roles. The dps role will most likely still be melee and could probably keep using a shield while dpsing.

[Monekop]

I think adding class skins/4th spec would be something that would be done but not connect as a dragonflight expansion feature. Otherwise at the end of the expansion those specs/skins could potentially go the way of Legion Artifacts. If Dragonflights are added as a covenant style system, they wont be a prerequisit of the subclass in my opinion.

Some of the comments have mentioned druids not geting a new spec and I get that. seems to me that DH could get a third but other threads had pointed out that would essencially make them a leather wearing demonology warlock. Possible that DH would get allied elf races as a trade off with void or arcane and some retcon about using the memories of an existing DH but fusing with remenants of the nightwell or void energy.

regardless am looking forward to seeing how we all fall far from the mark and it turns out that sargeras free's himself, pulls out the sword and cuts the planet in half.

[shise]

What ever they do it will be half ass and fucked up. Not a good sign so many developers leaving during 10.0 development. Another Lead Dev quit 3 days ago.

That´s the market everywhere in the world...
People move their careers; specially on this field and similar.


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I doubr it will be half baked, I think we can expect a good work this time around. There have been changes and signs of it.. but I dont expect 10.0 to be it, it might take some time.

[Teriz]

We stil don't really know the them of the expansion. Just that involves dragons. It could very well focus on the Life pantheon, in wich case a Night Warrior class (arden + sentinel + priest of the moon) would fit.
That's if even we get a new class

If that Alexstraza pic in the leak is real (and I believe it is), then any new class is going to be based on her, because the new class' archetypal hero always shows up on the cover. Just like LK, Chen, and Illidan before her, we have a RTS/MOBA version of Alexstraza where they can pull class mechanics from;

https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-gb/heroes/alexstrasza/

[Dystemper]

That´s the market everywhere in the world...
People move their careers; specially on this field and similar.


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I doubr it will be half baked, I think we can expect a good work this time around. There have been changes and signs of it.. but I dont expect 10.0 to be it, it might take some time.

No higher than Normal turn over . Blizzard used to be the pinnacle, the company you aspired to. The dream job. Now, it's the company you work fir versus you couldn't get the gig you wanted. Thete has been a lot of big departures in a short time. Morale is low, law suits , chais in the company.

[username993720]

Yes but Mages and DK's aren't Liches either.

Let's say you're a big fan of Liches, and want to play one officially in WoW. And let's say you were saying Lich abilities are already in Mage and DK classes. Now, would you say Mages and DK's allow you to play as a Lich? That if you wanted to play as a Lich, you should roll a Mage or a DK because they have Lich abilities?

The answer is easily no, a Mage and a DK does not represent playing as a Lich. The simple fact is a Lich would remain non-playable, and the closest you can do is roleplay as one. And the same right now exists if we're talking about Necromancers. Mages and DK's aren't Necromancers either, even though Necromancers have direct lore connections to both classes. You can't play a Necromancer, and a Necromancer is not part of any existing class.

Your argument that *they could still be from the same class* is the same bogus argument that could be used to say Death Knights can be Necromancers. Clearly, that is not possible, because a Class will only be itself, and not represent MULTIPLE identities. A Spec does not define an entire class.

If you're talking about a Warden spec for a Ranger class, you need to be fully aware that no matter how close the gameplay is, you'll never actually be a Night Elf Warden. Your class is a Ranger. You're a Warden-specced Ranger, and even if you had spells like Blink and Shadow Strike and Avatar of Vengeance, you'll still be a Ranger. And your Ranger will undoubtedly have origins that differ completely from the established Night Elf Wardens like Maiev.

That being said, Dark Ranger being a spec off a general Ranger class would also not be able to share origins with the Dark Rangers we have established in the lore. You would have to be talking about a new Ranger class that simply specializes in using dark magic. So instead of playing as a raised Undead Elf during the War of the Thorns, you'd be playing as a newly trained mortal Ranger who merely adopts the skillsets of a Dark Ranger. And if you really just wanted that, then Hunters are already capable of adopting the skillsets of a Dark Ranger through Sylvanas' Legendary drops.

Again, Class Skins would actually be the best way to approach this design. It would be a proper representation of lore without requiring new gameplay mechanics.

Are you not a Brewmaster because the class is called a Monk? Give me a break. A spec is an identity in itself.

Class skins are your wet fantasy, that's it. It cannot encompass those classes because the Hunter cannot do all of the things Tyrande and Sylvanas can, and Rogues can't do what Wardens can.

Except the connection Blizzard made was merely for the purpose of one individual becoming a Dark Warden for the sake of giving Maiev a personal connection to the Darkshore Warfront.

You could see this exact same narrative hook be used in Legion when Cordana Felsong was introduced as another variation of 'Dark Warden' who sided with Gul'dan and the Legion. And we can clearly see, there is no direct connection between Warlocks and Wardens, even though Cordana becoming a 'Dark Warden' was completely due to Gul'dan's doing. This wasn't a designer getting creative and wanting to introduce a new class connection, this was the writers wanting to give Maiev some personal connections to the ongoing narratives, otherwise she's literally a fish-out-of-water when presented any situation that doesn't involve chasing Illidan.

Sira Moonwarden and Cordana Felsong both served the same purpose, for different stories.

Firstly, Cordana Felsong is dead. Sira Moonwarden isn't.
Secondly, she couldn't have served as something to either a Warlock or a Demon Hunter, as their gameplay and lore are quite different. Meanwhile, the Dark Ranger is still flexible since it isn't playable yet.

To a Warden? Any number of classes could easily represent Wardens. All that needs to be figured out is how to adapt different weapon combinations and auto attack timing to that of a 1-hand wielded large Glaive attack.

Rogue suits the Warden well and already has shadowstep and fan of knives.
Ret Paladin could be visually tweaked to have all light-based spells be shadow instead.
Demon Hunter could also work since they already use Glaives and melee combat, and are very mobile.

Wardens don't use Shadowstep.
They aren't Warriors of faith.
They do not transform into a Demon.

[Triceron]

Are you not a Brewmaster because the class is called a Monk? Give me a break. A spec is an identity in itself.

You are a Monk, and thankfully for the Brewmaster, the Monk is heavily inspired and fully supports the original Brewmaster identity. The Monk is designed with brewing as a part of its entire class identity. It's based on using various elemental abilities. There is nothing in the Monk class that outright conflicts with the origins of the Brewmaster; they are fully complimentary to each other.

What part of a Ranger class would fully support a Warden's identity? It does not. We'd be talking about Rangers in the field who merely adopt some abilities from Wardens, and remain as Rangers. Which is no different than Rogues already having Fan of Knives or Mages having Blink. Other classes can adopt Warden's abilities, but would not be able to properly represent the class.

Let's put this into perspective - a Warden is a very specific concept that is specifically popularized through the use of the large Umbra Crescent, their Owl-like designs, and their iconic plate armor and large cloaks edged with large serrated blades. If you open that to other classes, or attach that identity to a spec of a class that does not fully support a singular Warden identity (sharing origins, goals), then we're talking about having the same problems as not having Wardens playable at all.

It's like suggesting Warlocks get a Demon Hunter spec instead of having a Demon Hunter class on its own, and using their Demonology Metamorphosis and Glyph of Demon Hunting and Green Fire questlines to support that argument. I'm not sure how you would ever regard a Warlock fully representing a Demon Hunter through a spec. In my mind, it will always be a Warlock, and that is the reason Blizzard chose not to pursue that route. And let's be clear - Xelnath was well on his way in trying to make that happen officially.

Class skins are your wet fantasy, that's it. It cannot encompass those classes because the Hunter cannot do all of the things Tyrande and Sylvanas can, and Rogues can't do what Wardens can.

I completely agree. I have always said Class Skins are not what I want to see. Class Skins are what I see Blizzard doing instead of making new classes. I have no confidence in Blizzard's ability to make a Ranger class that has Warden spec with its own gameplay, or a standalone Warden class. I see them merely providing the visual aesthetics as a part of existing class customization options. You can see, I'm coming from this from literally lowering the bar that Blizzard has themselves lowered.

If Blizzard does make a new class, I've been clear that the likeliest two right now are Dragon-related class or a Tinker; and even then IMO both are hovering around the 50/50 mark considering Blizzard could easily just not make any new class at all.

Firstly, Cordana Felsong is dead. Sira Moonwarden isn't.
Secondly, she couldn't have served as something to either a Warlock or a Demon Hunter, as their gameplay and lore are quite different. Meanwhile, the Dark Ranger is still flexible since it isn't playable yet.

If you want to talk about a Dark Ranger, I'd be happy to humor a discussion.

If you want to talk about a Dark Ranger that fully represents Dark Warden gameplay, then that is also plausible.

If you want to say there is a connection between Wardens and Rangers, or that the Warden can be playable, then neither of the above discussion will ever be able to satisfy playing as an actual Warden, because ultimately a 'Dark Warden' is a twisted, corrupted undead version of a class people want to play as, and is ultimately not the same thing. I mean, it's the literal difference between a Mage and a Necromancer or Warlock. You can't just pass off a Dark Ranger with a 'Dark Warden' spec as being able to play as a Warden. We're still just talking about a Dark Ranger melee-spec that happens to be named 'Dark Warden' and is themed on using similar abilities. By all means, you're still not actually a Warden, and never would be able to represent it.

Again, the exact same conversation as Demonology Warlocks having Metamorphosis and representing all the Demon Form gameplay of a Demon Hunter. Even if they gave Warlocks the ability to wield warglaives and fight in melee, you know that they wouldn't be the same as the Illidari Demon Hunters. A spec does not take on a new identity.

Wardens don't use Shadowstep.
They aren't Warriors of faith.
They do not transform into a Demon.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sira_Moonwarden

Have you seen Sira's abilities? She had Shadowstep as a Warden during Cataclysm.

Paladins are not only warriors of faith; they can be Warriors of Justice with Law being their Faith. Dark Iron lore is already implied as such, and they draw their power from their faith in Law. This can be applied back to Wardens, who are all about meting out Justice.

And a Class Skin implies that ability visuals and lore would change. They wouldn't turn into Demons, they would invoke a ritual transformation into a greater form, like that of the Avatar of Vengeance. Embodying this powerful Avatar would make sense considering you have already made an implied connection between them and Night Warriors, who ritually empower themselves and take on a different form. Since a Warden is mostly shown armored, an Avatar of Vengeance would suit them more appropriately than 'making their eyes black'.

[username993720]

You are a Monk, and thankfully for the Brewmaster, the Monk is heavily inspired and fully supports the original Brewmaster identity. The Monk is designed with brewing as a part of its entire class identity. It's based on using various elemental abilities. There is nothing in the Monk class that outright conflicts with the origins of the Brewmaster; they are fully complimentary to each other.

What part of a Ranger class would fully support a Warden's identity? It does not. We'd be talking about Rangers in the field who merely adopt some abilities from Wardens, and remain as Rangers. Which is no different than Rogues already having Fan of Knives or Mages having Blink. Other classes can adopt Warden's abilities, but would not be able to properly represent the class.

Let's put this into perspective - a Warden is a very specific concept that is specifically popularized through the use of the large Umbra Crescent, their Owl-like designs, and their iconic plate armor and large cloaks edged with large serrated blades. If you open that to other classes, or attach that identity to a spec of a class that does not fully support a singular Warden identity (sharing origins, goals), then we're talking about having the same problems as not having Wardens playable at all.

It's like suggesting Warlocks get a Demon Hunter spec instead of having a Demon Hunter class on its own, and using their Demonology Metamorphosis and Glyph of Demon Hunting and Green Fire questlines to support that argument. I'm not sure how you would ever regard a Warlock fully representing a Demon Hunter through a spec. In my mind, it will always be a Warlock, and that is the reason Blizzard chose not to pursue that route. And let's be clear - Xelnath was well on his way in trying to make that happen officially.

Then, this is your problem. Much like the Brewmaster and Monk, the Ranger and Warden also overlap. From Elune, Owls, Glaives and even Shadow Magic. Both are of elven origin.

I completely agree. I have always said Class Skins are not what I want to see. Class Skins are what I see Blizzard doing instead of making new classes. I have no confidence in Blizzard's ability to make a Ranger class that has Warden spec with its own gameplay, or a standalone Warden class. I see them merely providing the visual aesthetics as a part of existing class customization options. You can see, I'm coming from this from literally lowering the bar that Blizzard has themselves lowered.

Your inability to see it is of no concern of mine. Even given how lazy Blizzard is.

If Blizzard does make a new class, I've been clear that the likeliest two right now are Dragon-related class or a Tinker; and even then IMO both are hovering around the 50/50 mark considering Blizzard could easily just not make any new class at all.

Are you basing your prediction on what you think is popular among mmo-champ users?

If you want to talk about a Dark Ranger, I'd be happy to humor a discussion.

If you want to talk about a Dark Ranger that fully represents Dark Warden gameplay, then that is also plausible.

If you want to say there is a connection between Wardens and Rangers, or that the Warden can be playable, then neither of the above discussion will ever be able to satisfy playing as an actual Warden, because ultimately a 'Dark Warden' is a twisted, corrupted undead version of a class people want to play as, and is ultimately not the same thing. I mean, it's the literal difference between a Mage and a Necromancer or Warlock. You can't just pass off a Dark Ranger with a 'Dark Warden' spec as being able to play as a Warden. We're still just talking about a Dark Ranger melee-spec that happens to be named 'Dark Warden' and is themed on using similar abilities. By all means, you're still not actually a Warden, and never would be able to represent it.

Again, the exact same conversation as Demonology Warlocks having Metamorphosis and representing all the Demon Form gameplay of a Demon Hunter. Even if they gave Warlocks the ability to wield warglaives and fight in melee, you know that they wouldn't be the same as the Illidari Demon Hunters. A spec does not take on a new identity.

We still don't know how Dark Wardens differ from regular Wardens, ability-wise. It could simply be a way to connect between Wardens and Dark Rangers. That's it.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sira_Moonwarden

Have you seen Sira's abilities? She had Shadowstep as a Warden during Cataclysm.

In-game NPCs aren't really representative, as Blizzard often takes existing abilities and gives it to non-playable archetypes.

Paladins are not only warriors of faith; they can be Warriors of Justice with Law being their Faith. Dark Iron lore is already implied as such, and they draw their power from their faith in Law. This can be applied back to Wardens, who are all about meting out Justice.

It is true. They do overlap in that department. But, they're less of a judge and more of a bounty hunter.

And a Class Skin implies that ability visuals and lore would change. They wouldn't turn into Demons, they would invoke a ritual transformation into a greater form, like that of the Avatar of Vengeance. Embodying this powerful Avatar would make sense considering you have already made an implied connection between them and Night Warriors, who ritually empower themselves and take on a different form. Since a Warden is mostly shown armored, an Avatar of Vengeance would suit them more appropriately than 'making their eyes black'.

Spirit of Vengeance
50 Mana Cooldown: 13 / 0.1 seconds
Send a shadow of Maiev outward that will return to its cast location, dealing 150 damage to enemies along both paths. If an enemy Hero is hit, reduce the cooldown by 4 seconds.

Vengeance (Ultimate)
Creates a powerful avatar that summons invulnerable spirits from friendly corpses to attack your enemies.
When the Avatar of Vengeance dies, the spirits vanish.

Not a form.

[Triceron]

Then, this is your problem. Much like the Brewmaster and Monk, the Ranger and Warden also overlap. From Elune, Owls, Glaives and even Shadow Magic. Both are of elven origin.

What? What Rangers use Elune, Owls, Glaives and Shadow Magic?

Again, Tyrande is not a Ranger.

Your inability to see it is of no concern of mine. Even given how lazy Blizzard is.

It should be your concern, because you are literally talking about hints that do not exist in the narrative.

Oh, hello Teriz.

Are you really intent on continuing to troll me in this way?

I'll leave you to reflect on your approach.

[username993720]

What? What Rangers use Elune, Owls, Glaives and Shadow Magic?

Again, Tyrande is not a Ranger.

I literally showed you that she is.
She's a Night elven Ranger.

It should be your concern, because you are literally talking about hints that do not exist in the narrative.

No? Disregarding the things i lay out before you doesn't make it nonexistent.

[Triceron]

I literally showed you that she is.
She's a Night elven Ranger.

Except what you showed me was a couple of talents taken from a Hunter.

Hunters Mark is a Hunter ability. If you're proving to me she is a Night Elven Ranger because of her abilities, then you're also making the same argument that she is of the Hunter class since that is where the ability actually comes from.

Is this really the argument you want to make?

No? Disregarding the things i lay out before you doesn't make it nonexistent.

Sure it does. What you laid out before me is irrelevant as a hint towards any future storyline. Leaving the door open is no different than having the door closed. It doesn't indicate where the story intends to go. There are far better indicators to look at where the story will go than just looking at whether the door is open or closed on various storylines. We have to also evaluate their context and relevance to the greater narrative.

There are better ways to anticipate the narrative, which is what I've been pointing out to you all this time.

[Teriz]

Dragonsworn is a really sexy class. I want to objectify it to play it.

If it's designed correctly (after Alexstraza HotS) it'll be one of the most popular classes in WoW.

[Auburst]

If it's designed correctly (after Alexstraza HotS) it'll be one of the most popular classes in WoW.

It better be because I could use some of that mmo fix.