10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Itisamuh]

I get that, but I have been in runs where the group collectively agreed that timing the run doesn't matter - completion was all we wanted. It counts toward the vault and you still get loot at the end.

I guess the problem is there is no way to access higher difficulties without timing previous runs to get there. If they added alternative means to upgrade a key after completion it would be cool. They kinda did that with Torghast (you could go for time or full clear). They could add ridiculously challenging optional pulls and bosses to achieve this.

I think a good example is Nightfalls in Destiny. In D1 Nightfalls were fairly tough unless you way outgeared them or cheesed them, but they could be done if you were smart about the fights. There was no timer, it was just tough enemies. Then when D2 came out Nightfalls initially were timed, which made them far more difficult to my group (none of us like rushing) even though the enemies were way weaker and fights way easier. The timer adds artificial difficulty by forcing you to play sloppy. So it was both more boring, due to the far less challenging enemies, and more stressful, due to the timer. Needless to say, we all preferred the D1 Nightfall design. I think D2 ended up going back to that, but by then we were already soured on the game.

So yeah, I think the same could apply here. I find mechanically difficult fights much more engaging than timed fights, but whatever. Who knows, maybe most people genuinely like feeling rushed.

[gobarj]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

They are accessible to casual players too, I'm not sure what you're on about? Sure maybe the higher level gear won't be but that still isn't preventing you from running the dungeon and completing it.

[Uvania]

They are already gone because if you don't make it in time you only get "punished" by getting a downgraded key, just don't group up with "GOGOGO" speedy very much ppl and you'll be fine.

[jeezusisacasual]

I think a good example is Nightfalls in Destiny. In D1 Nightfalls were fairly tough unless you way outgeared them or cheesed them, but they could be done if you were smart about the fights. There was no timer, it was just tough enemies. Then when D2 came out Nightfalls initially were timed, which made them far more difficult to my group (none of us like rushing) even though the enemies were way weaker and fights way easier. The timer adds artificial difficulty by forcing you to play sloppy. So it was both more boring, due to the far less challenging enemies, and more stressful, due to the timer. Needless to say, we all preferred the D1 Nightfall design. I think D2 ended up going back to that, but by then we were already soured on the game.

So yeah, I think the same could apply here. I find mechanically difficult fights much more engaging than timed fights, but whatever. Who knows, maybe most people genuinely like feeling rushed.

The timer is a great element to add pressure to raise the stakes of sorts and it is a clear way to show you if you failed or not. Thats the thing also you still get a reward of sorts for finishing the run and the vault also helps with that. What blizzard needs to do is create a in game method that points the playerbase in the right direction for when they fail. Things like important kicks or damaging effects should be clearly more visible like modern games have done.

[afishman]

And here i am thinking Cata was bad in terms of mana regen

[Xalvia]

timer is the best thing about M+

[oland138]

I think a good example is Nightfalls in Destiny. In D1 Nightfalls were fairly tough unless you way outgeared them or cheesed them, but they could be done if you were smart about the fights. There was no timer, it was just tough enemies. Then when D2 came out Nightfalls initially were timed, which made them far more difficult to my group (none of us like rushing) even though the enemies were way weaker and fights way easier. The timer adds artificial difficulty by forcing you to play sloppy. So it was both more boring, due to the far less challenging enemies, and more stressful, due to the timer. Needless to say, we all preferred the D1 Nightfall design. I think D2 ended up going back to that, but by then we were already soured on the game.

So yeah, I think the same could apply here. I find mechanically difficult fights much more engaging than timed fights, but whatever. Who knows, maybe most people genuinely like feeling rushed.

I'd like to see something like optional bosses that are harder that would nullify the timer where you could either beat the timer, or beat the optional boss. Make them more challenging like some of the hard modes in Mechagon or Tazavesh.

[Nzx]

I haven't looked at in M+ timer since Legion. They're meaningless, if you don't wipe on stupid shit it's impossible to miss the timer and even if you do all that happens is one person's key drops a level.

I just missed a pug SD 14 timer by five seconds where no one in the group could manage 10k DPS, everyone except the tank and myself died to intermissions on the third boss, and the hunter was better at running into second boss beam than out of it. If you're failing timers, it's because you're trying dungeons that are too hard for you, and that's literally the entire point.

[Eapoe]

I will never understand why people want timers removed.
First off, it’s part of the very structure of the system. You’re literally asking for something to be removed that is part of the core design the devs want for challenge.
Secondly, there’s no reason to. Any time someone comes up with a reason for it never makes sense, or is easily countered.
Regardless, I hope it doesn’t go anywhere as it’s fundamental design, and it adds a layer of challenge for people who enjoy that sort of thing.

[[Apok]]

Clearly someone had a bad experience and decided you know what I want to get stuff that I don't have the skill to achieve remove timer so I can

[ifrah]

I will never understand why people want timers removed.
First off, it’s part of the very structure of the system. You’re literally asking for something to be removed that is part of the core design the devs want for challenge.
Secondly, there’s no reason to. Any time someone comes up with a reason for it never makes sense, or is easily countered.
Regardless, I hope it doesn’t go anywhere as it’s fundamental design, and it adds a layer of challenge for people who enjoy that sort of thing.

Indeed. The most common argument is that "but we want CC to be relevant again, and not just mass AoE-pulling half of the instance at a time" which is quite ironic. Should you play at key levels relevant to your gear and skill, there's actually need for CC, let alone interrupts. CC is not only to remove a mob out of the game until you feel like starting to auto attack it, however sometimes it still is a thing, not just on every single pull. There's stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, disorients - all of which come in handy in multiple occasions.

Removing the timers would put the trash in general at crossroads.
A) Either the trash becomes as irrelevant as it mostly has been in raids for eons - time sink of a chore with no challenge whatsoever. Since there's no timer, there's zero need to pull beyond one trash pack at a time if that's how you want to roll. Or you can even spice it up like the ever so praised "sheep X, trap Y" whatever CC while you auto attack the remaining 2 mobs down. Exciting? I don't know, doesn't sound much to me.

B) Buff the trash strong enough to make it relevant in small quantities. Should they buff only the HP and damage so that you need to chop down each trash pull small enough for the tank not to get one-shot? Or should they add more boss-like abilities to the trash? Either way, what you'd be creating here is tyrannical dungeon with a dozen extra bosses. Maybe that's what some people like to see? Unsure if I'd be too excited about it, or what it would do the general public as the runs could take as long as the good ol' BRD clears.

Timer does not make people toxic per se. Have you ever been to a raid or any other non-timed content? Or played other games? Yeah?
Nobody still needs to like the timer, but since the whole concept of mythic+ is scaleable challenge, I just fail to see by what means would removing it enhance the challenge aspect overall.

[ellieg]

Indeed. The most common argument is that "but we want CC to be relevant again, and not just mass AoE-pulling half of the instance at a time" which is quite ironic. Should you play at key levels relevant to your gear and skill, there's actually need for CC, let alone interrupts. CC is not only to remove a mob out of the game until you feel like starting to auto attack it, however sometimes it still is a thing, not just on every single pull. There's stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, disorients - all of which come in handy in multiple occasions.

Removing the timers would put the trash in general at crossroads.
A) Either the trash becomes as irrelevant as it mostly has been in raids for eons - time sink of a chore with no challenge whatsoever. Since there's no timer, there's zero need to pull beyond one trash pack at a time if that's how you want to roll. Or you can even spice it up like the ever so praised "sheep X, trap Y" whatever CC while you auto attack the remaining 2 mobs down. Exciting? I don't know, doesn't sound much to me.

B) Buff the trash strong enough to make it relevant in small quantities. Should they buff only the HP and damage so that you need to chop down each trash pull small enough for the tank not to get one-shot? Or should they add more boss-like abilities to the trash? Either way, what you'd be creating here is tyrannical dungeon with a dozen extra bosses. Maybe that's what some people like to see? Unsure if I'd be too excited about it, or what it would do the general public as the runs could take as long as the good ol' BRD clears.

Timer does not make people toxic per se. Have you ever been to a raid or any other non-timed content? Or played other games? Yeah?
Nobody still needs to like the timer, but since the whole concept of mythic+ is scaleable challenge, I just fail to see by what means would removing it enhance the challenge aspect overall.

I can almost guarantee that when they talk abt CC they are talking abt sheeping and trapping on pull and fighting 1-2 mobs at a time. They probably started in tbc or wrath and the game was fresh and fun and new to them and that's how you did dungeons then so clearly its the best system.

But you are spot on. Removing timer would kill the challenge, and way more CC is used now. But they don't want to have to think about interrupting 3 dif dangerous casts in a pull, soothing enrages, rooting slows and stuns to help kite away for the tank.

I've always said that the vast majority of players that want timers removed and to "just make the dungeon more difficult to compensate for no timer", would not even be able to handle the new difficulty

[infinitemeridian]

I just find the whole concept of M+ incredibly dull. Whenever people start talking about "pathing" or "routing" or "percent", I just wonder what the fuck happened to dungeons in this game. Surely there is a better way to keep them relevant without resorting to this nonsense.

[gobarj]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Naw dog. M+ can be relaxed too, don't stress it. You don't NEED to beat the timer.

[Kirbydude65]

I think a good example is Nightfalls in Destiny. In D1 Nightfalls were fairly tough unless you way outgeared them or cheesed them, but they could be done if you were smart about the fights. There was no timer, it was just tough enemies. Then when D2 came out Nightfalls initially were timed, which made them far more difficult to my group (none of us like rushing) even though the enemies were way weaker and fights way easier. The timer adds artificial difficulty by forcing you to play sloppy.

Just to add additional context to Nightfalls now in Destiny 2 are very different from what they were at vanilla launch, and are generally well liked from the playerbase.

Nightfalls are now broken up into level difficulty, with additional modifiers added on as you progress, as well as a fluctuating timer that serves different purposes.

Adept - A step above the strike play list. Not much more difficult, allowed for random matchmaking. Timer is only a point modifier.

Hero - Adds champions into the mix (requires specific mods or weapons), allowed for random matchmaking. Timer is only a point modifier.

Legend - Adds in additional modifiers (most notably matchgame), Champions, and is more lethal than previous versions. Rewards Nightfall specific weapons, and does not have match making support. Timer is only a point modifier.

Master - Highest tuned enemies in the game. Additional modifiers, Champions, ect. Rewards Nightfall specific weapons, and commonly drops rare crafting materials and exotics. Timer is only a point modifier.

Grand Master - Same as Master in terms of difficulty, except your power level is scaled to a very specific point that you cannot surpass via gear or artifact grinding. This makes everything terribly dangerous. Enemy snipers can one tap without the correct setup, Heavy and Special ammo are scare, ect. In addition players have limited revives (you can gain extra by killing champions). Rewards the most crafting materials, Adept Versions of weapons (Mostly BiS), high drops of exotic armor. Timer does play a factor that will after a set period of time based on the strike (Usually 30-45 Minutes) Removes all of your revives, and any death past that point is a permeant death that cannot be revived.

While Destiny leaned into the timer mostly being a cosmetic thing (Its relevant for gearing, but it can be done at Hero or Legend), at the highest level it serves as a purpose that usually beyond the first few attempts doesn't force you to move at an above accelerated pace.

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Tying this all back to WoW and M+, I personally feel that the timer and M+ doesn't really become a factor until you attempt to progress past a level 15 keystone. In a way, its very similar to Destiny in the sense that the best rewards for gearing up are awarded at 15 which isn't a large ask with a knowledgeable group, and the timer is relatively a non-factor.

[loras]

I hear ya and it's the main reason why I stopped tanking much in WoW. I just can't be asked to memorize all these super specific routes where you pull trash packs exactly according to some spreadsheet for each specific dungeon, and then alter those damn routes depending on which affix is active.

You need to memorize several routes PER DUNGEON to tank properly these days and its just not fun....Sucks too cuz I love tanking normally.

I feel ya.
Even if it's not my favourite role i rarely even dabble in raidtanking anymore because i can't practice it in a remotely stimulating environment.

And then to think that back in the day heroics(!) were meant to be the 5 man equivalent to dungeon gearing, where nowadays even mythic 0 is reminiscent of past normal dungeons.

In that sense i suppose the problem has always been the same: whining raiders, entitled to better loot than all others, just because they decided to choreograph with a few more morons than usual.

[Loveliest]

I hear ya and it's the main reason why I stopped tanking much in WoW. I just can't be asked to memorize all these super specific routes where you pull trash packs exactly according to some spreadsheet for each specific dungeon, and then alter those damn routes depending on which affix is active.

You need to memorize several routes PER DUNGEON to tank properly these days and its just not fun....Sucks too cuz I love tanking normally.

I still do it but man are they pushing it. With seasons you have to redo routes all over again too. Nevermind having different version for different affixes. I just get so tired nowadays. NOT looking forward to season 4...

[Glazey]

I disagree with the timer being removed, the idea of this system is to complete the dungeon as fast as possible within a certain time. However, you shouldn't be punished for not making the timer. The key should just stay at the level it was started as.

[Twdft]

I still do it but man are they pushing it. With seasons you have to redo routes all over again too. Nevermind having different version for different affixes. I just get so tired nowadays. NOT looking forward to season 4...

Better than everything the same for 2 years. It's bad enough we don't get more than 10 dungeons per expansion, at least seasonal and weekly affixes provide some variety.

I am looking forward to S4. And if we're lucky we even get a season 5, Blizzard said S4 would be short. S3 was 5 months, if Dragonflight releases end of year that is just shy of 5 months away.

[Alvito]

I just find the whole concept of M+ incredibly dull. Whenever people start talking about "pathing" or "routing" or "percent", I just wonder what the fuck happened to dungeons in this game. Surely there is a better way to keep them relevant without resorting to this nonsense.

Pathing has always been a thing in dungeons. You can go back to the original RFC or WC and people took the path of least resistance and skipped as much trash as they could.