Why does wow's community come off as so entitled?

[Hctaz]

You don't see a problem with what I posted, which is true?

No matter how you look at it, you should not be required to have cleared difficultity 2 (hc) to do difficulty 1 (normal), there is no logic or reason in that.

There is logic and reason to that, and I don't see a problem.

There are two kinds of people who are making these groups: The people who are experienced and want a quick clear on their alts with other people who are experienced and want to clear it quickly.

Or the people wanting to be carried.

Both groups are entitled to take whoever they want into their group. It does suck when you can't get a group for a Normal mode raid because you haven't done Heroic, but there's literally nothing you can do to prevent that from being a problem.

People are always going to check gear, logs, and achievements when it comes to forming their own group. That's why the best way to play WoW has and probably always will be with a guild full of like-minded individuals. That way you can progress through Normal mode raids super casually together at your own pace.
And I'm not using that phrase as a derogative. If that's the way you play the game, then you need to find a group of like-minded people to play the game the same way. It's just the best way to do it.

Any time you pug anything you're not going to be treated fairly.

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Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

I'm not sure of the specifics, but I can only assume it's related to the consistent updates to the game that have made it more and more casual?

Like... LFD and LFR have gotten people to decide that they didn't want to join guilds, but then they run into this issue where they aren't getting invited to content because they don't have a group of like-minded players to enjoy the game with together.

The game used to be centered around the mentality of "If you aren't in a guild, you aren't going to do end game content" to "It's fine to be guildless, we, as developers, will do everything that we can to make sure that you are able to have fun" when the second mentality just really doesn't work.

So, instead of those people quitting the game or finding a guild, they whine about it to Blizzard hoping that things will get changed somehow. Ultimately, I don't think anything Blizzard could or would implement in the game would fix the issue of needing a guild or a friend group to have a good time playing the end game content.

[Awsumpossum]

If you can start a group and get people to apply who are above the qualifications, why wouldn't you take them over someone who doesn't have them?

If you run a business and try to hire new folks and a bunch of people with elite experience apply for the same salary, would you really hire the noobs?

I don't really care about this broader discussion, and it is quite common for companies not to hire people because they are "overqualified." The perception is that they won't be satisfied with a job that is considered "beneath them." Personally, I think it is silly and that we ought to let people decide what type of job they would prefer and I feel, mostly, similar about keys. Sometimes I run 10s instead of 15s because I just want to enjoy playing my character. However, I have had the experience with people that run higher keys get extremely impatient in lower keys, regardless of how geared the other plays are, then their pressing ultimately leads to disaster and they are the first to leave because they can't reflect on their own role.

[Mr. Smith]

This is what happens when you constantly change the direction of a game's design, combined with having a constantly rotating set of developers. At some point or another, the WoW team has attempted to court just about every type of player: Casual, hardcore, Solo players, group players, RPers, PvEers, PvPers, esports fanatics, etc. And the problem is that, early on at least, they tended to be successful in bringing in whatever group of players they were aiming at.

And then the dev team would shift priorities, and they would start aiming at some other group, and the previous group would just have to deal with it. Leading to where we're at now, where there are tons of disparate groups of people who were each sold a different game, rightfully upset that the game they paid for no longer exists.

Compare that to FFXIV, where the game's only had one dude in charge since ARR. I think he's had a fairly consistent vision for the game since he took over, which helps to avoid the extreme splintering you see in WoW's player base.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I don't really care about this broader discussion, and it is quite common for companies not to hire people because they are "overqualified." The perception is that they won't be satisfied with a job that is considered "beneath them." Personally, I think it is silly and that we ought to let people decide what type of job they would prefer and I feel, mostly, similar about keys. Sometimes I run 10s instead of 15s because I just want to enjoy playing my character. However, I have had the experience with people that run higher keys get extremely impatient in lower keys, regardless of how geared the other plays are, then their pressing ultimately leads to disaster and they are the first to leave because they can't reflect on their own role.

it's definitely not the best analogy but yeah, by and large you are better off picking someone who overgears content than someone who doesn't, especially if they also have higher score and more experience. And in almost every key in the 15-18 range i listed this week it was easy to get some 3k player just filling up their vault. there's just no pressing reason to take that 2100 hunter with 250 ilvl and no 4pc even though 15s could easily be completed with them

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This is what happens when you constantly change the direction of a game's design, combined with having a constantly rotating set of developers..

WoW hasn't changed directors in like 7 years? And he was there since TBC. It's been a long time!

There's developer turnover but that's very normal

[ellieg]

I don't really care about this broader discussion, and it is quite common for companies not to hire people because they are "overqualified." The perception is that they won't be satisfied with a job that is considered "beneath them." Personally, I think it is silly and that we ought to let people decide what type of job they would prefer and I feel, mostly, similar about keys. Sometimes I run 10s instead of 15s because I just want to enjoy playing my character. However, I have had the experience with people that run higher keys get extremely impatient in lower keys, regardless of how geared the other plays are, then their pressing ultimately leads to disaster and they are the first to leave because they can't reflect on their own role.

Id change the analogy to be a contract instead of a formal job. Like if I need my deck replaced, why should I hire the guy with no experience when there's a guy with 25 years experience who can get it done faster and better.

[Recovery]

This problem doesnt exist, you are simply not good enough to play the way you want to, stick to a guild and all your problems vanish, but no, as the OP said, entitlement.

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They arent normal, thats why they are ignored by the rest of the community, or exist in forums like these, and making fun off, but mmo-champion has become an echo chamber of such negativity that anything positive is the outlier.

Blizzard does the mistake of listening to a different demographic now and then, the problem is the amount of damage that causes.

I explained this before, WoW probably had over 200 million Unique accounts, out of that, the 10% are pretty much coming and going, eventually voice an opinion and so on, so around 20mil players.

In those 20 million players, there are like 500 different groups of players requesting for things, as example the loudest for SL was the "RPG CHOICES" idiots, that ruined SL.

Blizzard decided to listen to the % of players about RPG choices from inside those 20 million players, and the rest people simply got annoyed, cause no one asked for RPG choices, if covenants was made differently from the start, SL would be better by default.

The problem with "choices" is that if power is attached to those choices, there is only the illusion of choice. Due to the way WoW is balanced, there will never equality in choice. Somethign will always be better than the next in the world of min/max. We told blizzard this when SL was still in Alpha. They didnt listen.
We reiterated this during beta. They still didnt listen.

Power should never be attached to choices.

[ellieg]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

I think its just the forums. In game those players do get laughed at. Online, wow has a big enough audience that they can find like-minded players and cry loud enough that it seems like they are the norm.

[Recovery]

it's definitely not the best analogy but yeah, by and large you are better off picking someone who overgears content than someone who doesn't, especially if they also have higher score and more experience. And in almost every key in the 15-18 range i listed this week it was easy to get some 3k player just filling up their vault. there's just no pressing reason to take that 2100 hunter with 250 ilvl and no 4pc even though 15s could easily be completed with them

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WoW hasn't changed directors in like 7 years? And he was there since TBC. It's been a long time!

There's developer turnover but that's very normal

I kind of agree with this. If I list a 15-18, im taking the most experienced / most geared players that sign up. However, im not going to wait around on a 3100 IO player to sign up. if i need one dps and a 2300 IO hunter is the best of whats signed up, im taking them.

Generally, WoW is a game of time. My time is precious to me. I am going to find the quickest way around every obstacle in the game due to the shear amount of things i have to get done in the game. Therefore, it is much more in my favor to take people who outgear / outskill content, so that we can zoom through the content and get on to the next thing in line.

[potis]

The problem with "choices" is that if power is attached to those choices, there is only the illusion of choice. Due to the way WoW is balanced, there will never equality in choice. Somethign will always be better than the next in the world of min/max. We told blizzard this when SL was still in Alpha. They didnt listen.
We reiterated this during beta. They still didnt listen.

Power should never be attached to choices.

Its not about the world of min/max, they tried the other paths, they dont work, people do not get better, they unsub if they get told to get better, so they stopped trying with the choices and there is only illusion of choice.

For every content apart from "World First Race" the choice doesnt really matter, things -are- close to that balanced, the problem is that Little LFR Billy thinks this reflects to him, cause some streamer did it, or saw it in a video, this is not something Blizzard can solve, and its a RPG, choices always come with power difference, this doesnt reflect to WoW only, pretty much every RPG is like this, if not every game genre, if i choose the gun with higher bullet velocity, i am gonna sacrifice some damage value.

The only problem SL had with "choice" was that they listened to as i said, wrong % of the whiners and instead of making the covenants a talent choice and leave the pointless RPG bullshit out they did the opposite, cause "MAH RPG CHOICE ELEMENTS".

[God Save The King]

I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

- People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
- People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
- People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

etc etc, it's become a joke.

I have literally never encountered this. AOTC for heroics late into the patch? Sure. The normal full clear achievement after 2-3 weeks? Sure. Wanting someone to have done a 15 already for your 15? Sure.

The reality is no one would join those groups with those requirements. The subset of people doing normal raids does not include AOTC players (barring the first few weeks due to OP trinkets/tier). The subset farming +10s does not include people who have cleared all +15s.

[potis]

I have literally never encountered this. AOTC for heroics late into the patch? Sure. The normal full clear achievement after 2-3 weeks? Sure. Wanting someone to have done a 15 already for your 15? Sure.

The reality is no one would join those groups with those requirements. The subset of people doing normal raids does not include AOTC players (barring the first few weeks due to OP trinkets/tier). The subset farming +10s does not include people who have cleared all +15s.

Nah, they exist, but they are outliers so of course people will use that in their argument.

It does happen the second week, but its literally the alts of the decent players, looking for the other alts or equally decent players to get a quick run before his night of progression.

But people are too thick to accept that not everyone is equal and your trashy 220 main from 7 months ago, because you decided to come back into the game, has no value when there are 500.000 alts with 252 item level from the previous patch, if you wanna count SL item level numbers.

Thats the problem with the game, patch hoppers expecting to be carried, thats what Battlebeard is.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I kind of agree with this. If I list a 15-18, im taking the most experienced / most geared players that sign up. However, im not going to wait around on a 3100 IO player to sign up. if i need one dps and a 2300 IO hunter is the best of whats signed up, im taking them.

Generally, WoW is a game of time. My time is precious to me. I am going to find the quickest way around every obstacle in the game due to the shear amount of things i have to get done in the game. Therefore, it is much more in my favor to take people who outgear / outskill content, so that we can zoom through the content and get on to the next thing in line.

Right, that's just the supply/demand issue. If high-rated players were rare, the original post wouldn't have the issue complaining about needing aotc or whatever to do lower content. But in general it is really easy to get overqualified people, especially in the first 3ish months of a given patch before good players get bored and yeet off until the next season.

A lot of this stuff can be thought of as a labor market, as weird as it may seem on the surface.

[potis]

Right, that's just the supply/demand issue. If high-rated players were rare, the original post wouldn't have the issue complaining about needing aotc or whatever to do lower content. But in general it is really easy to get overqualified people, especially in the first 3ish months of a given patch before good players get bored and yeet off until the next season.

A lot of this stuff can be thought of as a labor market, as weird as it may seem on the surface.

And that is literally their argument, remove all harder content and give everyone the same (of course the maximum possible ilvl) gear, so everyone is equal so they can get picked also.

Thats what most of these threads end up being and why on mmo-champion most threads are a joke and laughable, cause they literally want that, they dont understand that even if that were too happen, there would be other tools to clear up and filter all the bad players.

[Orby]

fandoms generally are entitled. WoW isnt exclusive in that regard

[Kithelle]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

Why do so many people act like they're the 1%? Many people have a exaggerated view of themselves...which leads to a massive ego and unearned self entitlement

[cparle87]

There is an "else" missing after no one, but thanks for pointing it out, my point still stands.

Blizzard seems to pick a forum post to read and focus on fixing each expansion, that forum post probably represents a % of players in those 20 mil active players in my example, since they do that, of course they are gonna fuck up.

No intelligent human being and decent player would give a fuck about "meaningful RPG choices" in a MMO in 2021, but they went and did that, despite everyone else, and their alpha and beta testers told them its a retarded idea to not be able to change Covenants on the fly, go figure who was right in the end, the idiotic % of players that wanted that, or everyone else?

They went and made 50 forum lurkers happy, and fucked over the rest 19.9mil players that told them "This is retarded, dont do this", comprendo now?

Imagine being so self centered that you can't compehend that people like things you don't and care about things you don't and presume to speak for 19.9mil people who absolutely MUST agree with your opinion and that only some tiny group of weirdos could possibly disagree with you.

[Miffinat0r]

I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

- People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
- People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
- People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

etc etc, it's become a joke.

Ya if you think this is a problem then you don't have a problem with the game having fewer players in it.

Know what drives people away? Gatekeeping. The community does it all the time because Blizz is too lazy to change things.

[jeezusisacasual]

If i put requirements like that it generally means i do not want to be challenged or have an easier time. Struggle is not fun nor is it rewarding but for the laughs if 2 rogues apply with similar ILVL i will take whomever has the higher io score simply because i want an easy time, i dont care if they are rude, mean or kidnap puppies they are to me just a means to an end.

[Battlebeard]

lmaaaaao op's point got proven in the second post

No, the opposite.

This happens all the time. People DO ask for HC experience to do normal, when it should be normal experience to do heroic. People should PROGRESS not REGRESS.

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Yes they did. Only the people who have the shit gear or no experience wants the runs where they get carried. People with experience and appropriate gear want other people to have those too.

People without gear and exp can form their own group and wipe as much as they want. Guess why they don't do it? Because people don't want to join those. Thus your argument is completely invalid.

But your posts prove the point of op. Somehow you feel you are entitled to being invited to a group, even if the leader doesnt want you. And then you are entitled to not be the leader yourself.

People missuse the world Entitled all the time.

We PAY for this game, we are entitled to the content of the game. I DO get that this game is a progressive game and that some parts require a certain amount of level to do (like experience and gear). But once we have the necessary requirements, we are entitled to do the content.

Take raiding, usually ilvl increase by 15 levels per difficulty, normal drop 100, heroic 115, mythic 130 etc.

If you get full 100, from normal, your next step is heroic. You cannot get higher than 100 pre-heroic raids, so if you have 100, you are heroic ready. Then you are entitled to raid heroic, cause you met the standard normal requirement. To ask for 115 for heroic is absurd, cause there is no way to get 115 before you done it. I'm sure you get my point.

Leaders should comply to the way the game was BUILT to be played, not have their own elistitic ways that RUIN the entire game. Same with dungeons, if you do M+2, you are ready for M+3 etc. The requirement for doing a +10 key SHOULD be to have done a +9 key. Not a +10, and absolutely not anything above +10. That's how you SHOULD progress in a game like this, and leaders who don't do it like that ARE doing it objecitvely wrong.

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I have played since day 1. I have never encountered this. Not once. I have seen people ask for APPROPRIATE gear to complete a raid, but I have never seen what you are saying. The good news is, there are some amazing solutions to this made up problem:

Get AOTC
Get KM
Get heroic gear

Those out of reach?

Join a community
Join a guild
Play with friends
Start your own group

So to be clear - the problem you present does not exist, at least not to the extreme level you are claiming, and, even if it DID exist, there are multiple solutions to this "problem", and not a single one of them require you to engage with these "entitled" people at all.

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"shady"? What does that even mean in this context?

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Agree with this - you mean exactly like the person claiming raiding should be removed to introduce player housing, right?

How can you get Aotc, KM or heroic gear if you never ge invited.

Your solutions are very bad an unrealistic.

"Join a community" - What community? Never seen a single one willing to help. The "community" that exist is toxic.
"Join a guild" - Not everyone has the ability to join guilds, people have IRL that makes regular play impossible. Guilds are for Mythic raiding only, that's not even what I am asking for.
"Play with friends" - And what if you don't have any friends or the ability or interest to make friends? This should not be a requirement to play the game.
"Start your own group" - Mentioned it many times, only a few % of all players can be the leader, whether it's 1 in 40, 30, 25, 20, 10, depending on expansion/difficulty, can be the leader. The vast majority will not be the raid leader, hence it's a poor solution. AND many people are terrible leaders. I NEVER in my life played a tank or healer, how can I possibly assign tanking and healing etc then? You shouldn't be required to know more than the character you play to actually play the game.

[Gurahk]

Old game with lots of players that each want a different thing.
Implement a feature that some people like, and you'll be sure to get a lot of people who complain because it's not what THEY wanted.
However, I will admit there's something weird about WoW's community. The game somehow gets treated like a relationship unlike other MMOs, a lot of ex-WoW players will keep on visiting the forums, videos and what-not for one purpose, to bad-mouth the game and pass it off as criticism.
It's not enough that you've moved on, you must tell others that you've moved on.