Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Ghost of Cow]

What's with your close-minded view that people who want that, which has historically been something you can do in every video game ever until we started getting into mobile and online multiplayer games, should just give up on their power fantasy dreams?

Because you just sound like a spoiled brat, that's why.

Piles and piles of games where you can do what you want, but you still go to every other game and say, "You're not doing what I personally like! Stop doing that! Why are you making games so bad now?!"

[BeepBoo]

Piles and piles of games where you can do what you want, but you still go to every other game and say, "You're not doing what I personally like! Stop doing that!"

"Piles and piles" yeah, no. There aren't piles and piles of elden-ring quality/genre games released yearly, let alone monthly like I'd need. As I said, opportunity cost is actually costing me enjoyment, so I'll use the means available to me to affect change or at least vent to feel better.

[Veggie50]

I mean same rules apply to casinos. you don't *have* to go in them and you're not entitled to winning which is why blizzard refuses to release this game in countries where gambling in video games is (rightly) illegal.

Oh I agree the very nature of Gacha games is predatory... But the "110k to get maxed" is kinda meaningless... To keep within the casino metaphor, it's like setting your definition of having fun to "win 1,000,000,000 dollar", while most people would be having loads of fun winning 100 bucks.

Don't get me wrong, it's a hateful direction for Blizzard to go in, but the "110k for max" is a bit of a dud argument...

[Elim Garak]

We know how many materials it takes, the current mechanisms which award those materials and at what rates, and how much time and or money is required for each of them. It's more than enough to do some napkin math. These also haven't changed much since the beta, and the game has been in beta for quite a while.

You can do napkin math all you want - but it doesn't show you the reality that is to happen.
That math only shows you what would happen if you take the current version of the game and the server, put them into a vacuum and start playing without paying - your math will show you how much time it might take to max out the character.

But you have to be cognitively dissonanced to claim that it reflects reality.

Your argument is that no one can use data to predict anything period.

Lol. That's like life - you can't predict shit. It's not my argument.

By your own logic you can't claim that if they start now they will max out, because you can't know that. Maybe the game will change so its impossible to max out, or the game will shutdown.

And I didn't. But if you take the current MAX stats in the game - they will max out to THOSE stats relatively soon, that's a certainty of 100%. it won't be the max at the time - there will be new content, new gear new level caps, etc. But that's a completely different beast.

Free players will always lag behind paying customers - at maxing out. And it's PERFECTLY FAIR.

You're acting like its weird to min-max in an ARPG, a genre built around min-maxing and power fantasy.

No, I'm explaining how your math cannot be used to predict shit because you are not using all the data, I bet there are no differentials in your napkin math. They are kinda required if you need to account for a change over time.

[Ghost of Cow]

"Piles and piles" yeah, no. There aren't piles and piles of elden-ring quality/genre games released yearly, let alone monthly like I'd need. As I said, opportunity cost is actually costing me enjoyment, so I'll use the means available to me to affect change or at least vent to feel better.

So you need an Elden Ring released every month or else you're just not going to be happy? And it's the fault of other games that you're not getting that, so they should stop making them?

Yeah, definitely don't sound spoiled at all.

[Elim Garak]

That doesn't sound right.

Because you have a selective reading and reading comprehension issues. Like missing the fact that it's about possibilities because we know nothing about the future and that one possibility could be, FOR INSTANCE, $60 and 1 year.

[BeepBoo]

while most people would be having loads of fun winning 100 bucks.

I low-key detest gambling and people who enjoy it. Getting lucky randomly through no virtue of your own strength and feeling good about it just does not sit well with me. It's REALLY good at making people money for next-to-no effort, though!

[uuuhname]

Oh I agree the very nature of Gacha games is predatory... But the "110k to get maxed" is kinda meaningless... To keep within the casino metaphor, it's like setting your definition of having fun to "win 1,000,000,000 dollar", while most people would be having loads of fun winning 100 bucks.

Don't get me wrong, it's a hateful direction for Blizzard to go in, but the "110k for max" is a bit of a dud argument...

it's only a dud argument if you don't take into account that kids often play these games. they are being pulled into these predatory games and end up spending their or their parents money. it is incredible to me when after the iPhone came out we had all of these stories about kids spending thousands of dollars on these games and at no point did anyone question why it's okay for video games to have that.

it's the same reason fruit flavored cigarettes' are illegal, yes, they are made to be consumed by adults, but the marketing of them was implicitly aimed at kids.

[PC2]

$110,000 or 10 years play time to reach max level, hm? Yeah, doesn't sound predatory to me at all.

Yes that's because it's not predatory, unless you can show that Blizz is forcing people to play and beat their game.

But don't worry, you can play it for FREE if you just invest a decade. Lol

No you can experience 95% of the current game in a month. It's just the extremely elite content that requires a lot of time or money because it requires the highest possible stats.

[rhorle]

it is when the alterative is thousands of dollars you are being bilked out of. it is in my eyes very unethical.

So it is ethical when there is no alternative or when the alternative is low priced. It seems strange that ethical part is solely about the price. That indicates that there isn't really a problem with the long grind for a free player. It is just the price being to high. Is this because you don't want to pay it but would if it was lower? Is this even an ethical problem or just a "can't/won't afford it" problem?

[Elim Garak]

it's only a dud argument if you don't take into account that kids often play these games.

That's a dud argument.

- Kids don't have money
- But they can steal a cc from parents
- How is it our problem?

[Ghost of Cow]

it's only a dud argument if you don't take into account that kids often play these games. they are being pulled into these predatory games and end up spending their or their parents money. it is incredible to me when after the iPhone came out we had all of these stories about kids spending thousands of dollars on these games and at no point did anyone question why it's okay for video games to have that.

it's the same reason fruit flavored cigarettes' are illegal, yes, they are made to be consumed by adults, but the marketing of them was implicitly aimed at kids.

And here's the kids being dragged out to be used as a soapbox again.

No one ever asks why the kids have a credit card, though. They just want big brother to regulate things because of it, I guess. Gotta get rid of everything that a kid might do something bad with when their parents are failing.

[BeepBoo]

So you need an Elden Ring released every month or else you're just not going to be happy? And it's the fault of other games that you're not getting that, so they should stop making them?

You're the one who made a false claim that there are plenty of other games to sate my desired game type, not me. Also, yes, if everyone liked what I liked and refused to spend money on things they didn't like or settle, I'd definitely be getting more of what I like. That's how this works. The closer your desires to the braindead majority's, the better scales of economies for the things you're interested in are, the higher likelihood you'll get what you want at a price that you can afford.

Yeah, definitely don't sound spoiled at all.

Spoiled and selfish are two different things FYI.

[uuuhname]

So it is ethical when there is no alternative or when the alternative is low priced. It seems strange that ethical part is solely about the price. That indicates that there isn't really a problem with the long grind for a free player. It is just the price being to high. Is this because you don't want to pay it but would if it was lower? Is this even an ethical problem or just a "can't/won't afford it" problem?

I think ten years straight of playing the game is equally absurd. it is made that way to entice you to spend money, that is a key part of the scam.

[Azerox]

Im playing it and it is awesome. So sad it has this type of monetization.
Blizzard is rly just a shell of its former self. So sad.
Hope Microsoft can bring a halt to the greed.

[Ghost of Cow]

The closer your desires to the braindead majority's, the better scales of economies for the things you're interested in are, the higher likelihood you'll get what you want at a price that you can afford.

Spoiled and selfish are two different things FYI.

I bet you're the only person that truly understands Rick and Morty, too.

[Jerot]

Is it unethical for a game to require long grinds for best in slot when there is no pay to win? Because that is the argument you are making. It shouldn't only be unethical when options to skip it exist. Do we know that the grind would be substantially different if pay to win didn't exist? Or would Legendary crests/gems still be a slow trickle to prolong the life of the game?

If only we had other similar games to compare the rates to... Why not any of the previous three diablo games?

You don't even have to go as far as best in slot, I showed the math for a basic 1-star entry level awakened legendary, not even a 5-star which is nearly 20 times as hard to get and much more powerful. It was still more than a year per piece or hundreds of dollars.

Compare that to getting primal ancient gear which is BiS, and an entire set including double the item slots is doable in a season shorter than a year.

They don't benefit from that level of grind if they aren't selling a way for people to skip it, 99.9% of people would quit before getting anywhere near, it's not a good retention tactic in such a repetitive game.

Its unethical because it puts the developer in a situation where lowering the rates for all players makes selling a skip all the more profitable, at the expense of game balance.


It's parasitic marketing, they aren't creating new value for a customer, they are creating a problem that only money solves. Having a free campaign does not automatically mean they have to use scummy mobile monetization, lots of games don't and are successful.

[Ghost of Cow]

I think ten years straight of playing the game is equally absurd. it is made that way to entice you to spend money, that is a key part of the scam.

Everything that any business does ever is to "entice you to spend money".

What do you people think businesses do? I know a lot of posters here talk as if Blizzard was their friend or something, so I really do think that some of you have a warped concept of what a business actually is.

[uuuhname]

And here's the kids being dragged out to be used as a soapbox again.

No one ever asks why the kids have a credit card, though. They just want big brother to regulate things because of it, I guess. Gotta get rid of everything that a kid might do something bad with when their parents are failing.

I'm sorry if facts don't care about your feelings. again, the reason why video games should not have gambling mechanics is the same reason fruit flavored cigarettes' are no longer a thing.

[Elim Garak]

I'm sorry if facts don't care about your feelings. again, the reason why video games should not have gambling mechanics is the same reason fruit flavored cigarettes' are no longer a thing.

The reason is fascisim?