Why is Diablo Immortal hated but not Hearthstone?

[Th3Scourge]

I just wish MtG would do what Pokemon does, as odd as that sounds.
Pokemon packs come with the codes to redeem in the online game for packs. So it actually incentives buying physical packs which is still a sale to them.

MtG could easily benefit from a similar system.
The best Hearthstone could do is give packs with some merch I guess, but they did do that for a bit.

Yeah that would be a good idea for MTG/MTGO/Arena, although I prefer to isolate Arena off as a mobile game anomaly. The other problem with modern MTG is the amount of BS rng they included into boxes, sets and packs, but that's an entirely different conversation altogether!

[Alicianna]

Yes, there is a certain amount of p2w in HS, too, but if you compare the amount of money you have to put into aiming for Legend or even higher in Standard can be neglected compared to what you have to sink into DIM for being competitive.
What I do in HS to stay competitive is basically buying the „expansions“ on pre-order… that’s it. If you do that, you are basically ready to go for legend AND have all cards from said expansion at the end of the season.
Yes, that not cheap… considering 3 expansions per year… but it is limited to a reasonable amount of money… unless you want all your cards to be golden for cosmetic reasons… but even then HS would be pretty cheap compared to DIM.

I come from playing CCGs, so I‘m used to sinking some money into my favorite game. The only difference is: HS is virtual and instead of trading cards you have to dust your cards.

[Mysterymask]

Yeah that would be a good idea for MTG/MTGO/Arena, although I prefer to isolate Arena off as a mobile game anomaly. The other problem with modern MTG is the amount of BS rng they included into boxes, sets and packs, but that's an entirely different conversation altogether!

Shit the fact that Alchemy exists and is hearthstoneing MTG Arena is already annoying...and hilariously they just banned a card in Alchemy today

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ent-2022-07-05

[Th3Scourge]

Shit the fact that Alchemy exists and is hearthstoneing MTG Arena is already annoying...and hilariously they just banned a card in Alchemy today

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ent-2022-07-05

OK I had to google what alchemy is. This is why it's better off to just silo MTGA to the side coz it's a piece of shit. I don't like this 'rebalancing' digital cards. That's exactly the bullshit they do in HS, you'd wake up one day and cards you've invested in have changed. Fuck that.

[Mysterymask]

OK I had to google what alchemy is. This is why it's better off to just silo MTGA to the side coz it's a piece of shit. I don't like this 'rebalancing' digital cards. That's exactly the bullshit they do in HS, you'd wake up one day and cards you've invested in have changed. Fuck that.

It's not that bad ..they did fix the biggest problem with it (forcing it on Historic) so it's at the very least a very ignorable thing


But it's not like print MTG or card games don't do that too..

https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Companion

[Advo]

Hearthstone has never pretended to be anything it wasn't.

[Mysterymask]

Hearthstone has never pretended to be anything it wasn't.

TBF neither did Diablo Immortal

[Nymrohd]

TBF neither did Diablo Immortal

Eh, some dev comments were certainly trying to pretend otherwise.

[Mysterymask]

Eh, some dev comments were certainly trying to pretend otherwise.

I'm not gonna lie....people sitting there acting like NetEase is suddenly going to make a real Diablo game that isnt a p2w shitfest we're either lying to themselves or intentionally trying to piss themselves off


Then again the internet has a long history of overhyping themselves

[Nymrohd]

I'm not gonna lie....people sitting there acting like NetEase is suddenly going to make a real Diablo game that isnt a p2w shitfest we're either lying to themselves or intentionally trying to piss themselves off

Then again the internet has a long history of overhyping themselves

Oh people should have known. Doesn't mean that Blizzard's devs did not try to lie about how P2W the game is with that "you can't get gear with money" comment.

I have a whale in my clan who has like +600 CR from legendary gems. Their gear is actually quite worse than mine.
There is no honesty in people claiming the P2W component between HS and Diablo Immortal is comparable.
HS has multiple game modes; BG is pretty much f2p with minor benefits for paying; Standard can be played with a minimal investment to the highest level. Wild and Duels are both P2W (you really need a large library for both modes) as is Mercenaries to an extent (it was far, far worse, it is much better after they changed the way Tasks work and now you just need to grind like crazy).
DI up to Hell 2 is pretty easy. You will not top any leaderboards if you are not a whale and you will struggle with Vitaath. You'll still be able to rank in leaderboards and kill Vitaath even if you don't pay though (I'm consistently 20-30 for BGs and CRs on my server though I am no longer completely f2p since I did buy a bundle; still spend like 35 Euro so I am not sure if I even qualify for dolphin status).

For me the disappointment with the game remains not that in it is P2W but that it is a good game AND P2W. Plus the P2W component is a bit crazy (and while I haven't played gacha games before my understanding is that they tend to have far more frequent promotions and free stuff while DI has nothing; imo they should have given a much higher eternal crest income; people would still buy the orbs).

[Battlebeard]

HS is pay for deck diversity, you don't need to pay to reach legend. Once you have a deck, spending more time or money isn't going to make it stronger. The goal of the game isn't to get more cards, you pay/grind for more cards to build multiple different decks to vary up gameplay.

You cannot compete as a free player in DI. The goal of the game is to become as powerful as you can. What power you can get for free is capped, while bought power is not.

These aren't the same things at all. As others have pointed out, dropping $100k on HS won't give you a 95% win rate.

For HS to be as bad as DI, you would have to be able to buy additional starting health, hand size, or mana crystals. Or if it had powerful mechanically unique cards that could only be bought with cash.

You are wrong, you clearly benefit and progress faster by paying in HS, that make it P2W. You don't HAVE to pay to reach legend in theory, but you don't have to pay to reach the top of the leaderboard in Immortal either technically. Your argument fall flag.

[Jerot]

You are wrong, you clearly benefit and progress faster by paying in HS, that make it P2W. You don't HAVE to pay to reach legend in theory, but you don't have to pay to reach the top of the leaderboard in Immortal either technically. Your argument fall flag.

Every physical card game from Magic the Gathering, to Yu-Gi-Oh, to Pokemon is more "P2W" than Hearthstone. And there isn't anything wrong with those games. It's an established business model. Diablo Immortal is a completely different game and comparing the monetization is apples to oranges.

In DI if there are enough players on your server paying to win, you can never compete for immortal as a F2P, period. Even if you're mechanically the best player in the world and play 18 hours a day. That is never the case in hearthstone, it doesn't matter how many other people are buying packs in hearthstone, once your deck is built it comes down to your dedication and game knowledge to reach legend. Yes you can get to that point slightly faster if you pay, but its on the same level as buying a level boost in WoW so you can reach endgame and do arenas on a new class. The cap is very low by comparison, and reachable without paying. It is not a pay wall.

Hearthstone caps out once you have the cards for a deck, you can't grind or pay for any further advantages. This cap only changes when new sets come out or cards are re-balanced, basically when the meta shifts. A person who bought every single card in hearthstone isn't anymore likely to win than someone who played for free and earned enough to build a single complete meta deck.

Meanwhile you can dump $500,000 into DI and have a stat advantage over anyone who spent less on the game. Your $500k build is strictly better than someones $300k build regardless of skill. A free player will always be capped by time because reaching the max (Comparable to having a full deck in hearthstone) will take longer than the game is probably going to be live, on the order of decades. Where a paying player is virtually uncapped and will always have the stat advantage.

These are nothing alike, being alright with one and not the other doesn't make someone a hypocrite.

OK I had to google what alchemy is. This is why it's better off to just silo MTGA to the side coz it's a piece of shit. I don't like this 'rebalancing' digital cards. That's exactly the bullshit they do in HS, you'd wake up one day and cards you've invested in have changed. Fuck that.

Honestly worse than HS because the "arena exclusive" cards often have the same name and artwork as existing cards from the physical card game but with completely different effects. Way too confusing for anyone that plays both. Not to mention having cards that literally have 293 words of rules text.

[Battlebeard]

Every physical card game from Magic the Gathering, to Yu-Gi-Oh, to Pokemon is more "P2W" than Hearthstone. And there isn't anything wrong with those games. It's an established business model. Diablo Immortal is a completely different game and comparing the monetization is apples to oranges.

In DI if there are enough players on your server paying to win, you can never compete for immortal as a F2P, period. Even if you're mechanically the best player in the world and play 18 hours a day. That is never the case in hearthstone, it doesn't matter how many other people are buying packs in hearthstone, once your deck is built it comes down to your dedication and game knowledge to reach legend. Yes you can get to that point slightly faster if you pay, but its on the same level as buying a level boost in WoW so you can reach endgame and do arenas on a new class. The cap is very low by comparison, and reachable without paying. It is not a pay wall.

Hearthstone caps out once you have the cards for a deck, you can't grind or pay for any further advantages. This cap only changes when new sets come out or cards are re-balanced, basically when the meta shifts. A person who bought every single card in hearthstone isn't anymore likely to win than someone who played for free and earned enough to build a single complete meta deck.

Meanwhile you can dump $500,000 into DI and have a stat advantage over anyone who spent less on the game. Your $500k build is strictly better than someones $300k build regardless of skill. A free player will always be capped by time because reaching the max (Comparable to having a full deck in hearthstone) will take longer than the game is probably going to be live, on the order of decades. Where a paying player is virtually uncapped and will always have the stat advantage.

These are nothing alike, being alright with one and not the other doesn't make someone a hypocrite.



Honestly worse than HS because the "arena exclusive" cards often have the same name and artwork as existing cards from the physical card game but with completely different effects. Way too confusing for anyone that plays both. Not to mention having cards that literally have 293 words of rules text.

Well, Hearthstone would be a better game if every single card was avaliable free, and that you can buy optional packs that contain golden version of the cards only, and maybe even add more levels of card design, bronze, silver, gold, platinum etc, that all give the card a cosmetic effect. But the standard card should be free. The fact that they are not is just as greedy as Diablo Immortal.

If you say it's standard for the entire card game industry (digital), well, then the entire industry sucks, ngl.

[Calfredd]

If you say it's standard for the entire card game industry (digital), well, then the entire industry sucks, ngl.

Why are you specifying digital? The entire card game industry, both digital and physical, requires you buy cards, trade cards (where applicable), or beg your friends for free cards. That you can just destroy cards you don't want in exchange for the ability to make cards you do want is just another avenue. The entire industry started sucking the moment Magic came out in 1993.

[Battlebeard]

Why are you specifying digital? The entire card game industry, both digital and physical, requires you buy cards, trade cards (where applicable), or beg your friends for free cards. That you can just destroy cards you don't want in exchange for the ability to make cards you do want is just another avenue. The entire industry started sucking the moment Magic came out in 1993.

The physical industry make sense, you need to actually aquire physical cards.

The digital industry makes no sense, it's digital, you could just get all of them at once. Would rather pay 70euro one time purchase for the game, get 100% cards, and packs would just contain cosmetics (like golden cards, heroes, card backs etc)

[The Stormbringer]

Comparing Diablo Immortal to Hearthstone is absolute fucking joke. Do you even understand how far they go in DI, @Battlebeard ? It sounds like you're only paying attention to news article headlines and haven't watched a single vid about it, and also know nothing about how Hearthstone works.

It has nothing to do with p2w.

It's a bunch of PC gamers virtue signaling because they are naive to how mobile games work.

Yes, it's okay to be incredibly predatory and use every single psychological scheme in the book to get people to fork over money and get addicted, as long as it's a MOBILE game! Holy fucking shit, what an amazing statement this is! You've really taught me a great lesson today, thank you.

[Battlebeard]

Comparing Diablo Immortal to Hearthstone is absolute fucking joke. Do you even understand how far they go in DI, @Battlebeard ? It sounds like you're only paying attention to news article headlines and haven't watched a single vid about it, and also know nothing about how Hearthstone works.



Yes, it's okay to be incredibly predatory and use every single psychological scheme in the book to get people to fork over money and get addicted, as long as it's a MOBILE game! Holy fucking shit, what an amazing statement this is! You've really taught me a great lesson today, thank you.

I know enough, I know I can never play Hearthstone, cause I don't have months to spend to get a decent competitive deck, and I won't pay anything either. Sorry, but the system is terrible.

[The Stormbringer]

I know enough, I know I can never play Hearthstone, cause I don't have months to spend to get a decent competitive deck, and I won't pay anything either. Sorry, but the system is terrible.

You're absolutely correct. Hearthstone's F2P is definitely not great, especially when it comes to new players. It does, however, come with a number of fully free-to-play modes, plus daily quests that grant gold and allow you to buy packs, do Arenas, etc. without paying a time. That doesn't require months of play.

Personally, I think they should bring back Whizbang. You would make a deck with one card, and it would give you one random pre-made deck out of all the available classes. I wanna say it was something like 30 decks for one card? It was a free-to-player's DREAM!

And even with all of that, Hearthstone still pales in comparison to Diablo Immortal. It's like a dust mite in comparison to Immortal's elephant.

[korijenkins]

Because Hearthstone was a fun game.

Yeah when it came out the p2w elements were really minor. You just had the default cards, and there weren't a ton of them.

Now how many sets are there? 20? Unlocking cards just to have Blizzard arbitrarily cycle them out, getting dust at 1/4 the value (horrible). Hearthstone was one of the first games to use loot boxes. It's chess with pieces you have to gamble for in loot boxes.

[Jester Joe]

I know enough, I know I can never play Hearthstone, cause I don't have months to spend to get a decent competitive deck, and I won't pay anything either. Sorry, but the system is terrible.

New players get a free deck that's usually based somewhat off of meta decks.
They've also offered it to old returning players