Is Warmode a Cursed game design problem?

[Big Thanks]

According to a lecture on youtube:
A Free-for-all-PvP game with skill gameplay is a cursed design problem because to win it requires "politics" gameplay.
While the fun of the game is supposed to come from "combat mastery" and "skill"...to win...it requires politics.
So is considered a game design cursed problem.

Warmode saw some changes already.
-The warmode pvp quests stopped counting if you are in a raid group.
-Flightpath ganking doesnt count for completion of the quest

But what could make Warmode fun and engaging for everyone?

According to the lecture several game design choices can make it fun but there always needs to be a sacrifice.
Sacrifice information, communication or even give in and focus more on the politics instead of skill.

What would you do to make warmode fun?

Youtube Video Lecture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Implement an outlaw mode where outlaws can get valuable loot for killing questgiver and vendor NPCs. Outlaws have an ever increasing bounty placed upon them that incentivizes law abiding players to go after them. PvP anywhere at any time out in the open world.

[Lochton]

I have not really experienced politics in warmode.

What I would do, is to fill it with various highlighted competitive zones, as well as work more on NPC AI to release some ever-leveling NPCs and if they kill too many players, they'll upgrade to rare status and then world boss status with rewards appropriate to PvP and war mode. Just to fill it out as war mode isn't used as much as in Battle For Azeroth, where it was glorious fun. As well, I'd apply the OP buffs to the reigning faction BUT it is pr. continent, making a control point somewhere on each continent that the factions can fight for, unlocking better XP/Reputation/material drops (not gold or gear).

Offer a bounty system as we have but make it function for the whole world of war mode, as well, if there is no current bounty, make a random generated bounty based on the high PvP level currently in war mode, but the person with the bounty should also have a benefit in XP/Rep/mats gain while so, as they'll be prey for a possible reward by killing them.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Most the people I see in warmode just run by me. Mostly just there for higher XP and rewards from what I can tell. At the very end game you run into people PVPing once in a while.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I think War Mode is already fun for what it is and what if offers.


As it exists inside World of Warcraft, with what kind of game WoW is and War Mode not being a major feature of WoW in any capacity, I think it's fine the way it is as it is optional.

[Firefall]

"Politics" like that are a social aspect and I dare you to find a single person who grew up playing smash free for all with friends who doesn't have fond memories of that social aspect. Recall every time you all beat up the person who was hiding off to the side and laughed and had fun.

[Echeyakee]

I've always said that the thing holding warmode back is their insistence on questing. It's just not fun to do already tedious quests, while having to worry about being ganked. Just like it's not fun being smoke ganked 1v3 in dota, when you had no chance to do anything.

But in games like dota, you only have 1 or 2 people "questing", i.e. farming gold, or doing any other generic boring task, while the rest of the team is incentivized to actively hinder other team's AND help your team's "questers". But you can't really have teams in world pvp, not in the same sense.

An ideal warmode for me would be something like a mega battleground. I would love it to be spanning all the zones, but I would settle for each zone being it's own thing. Akin to Nazjatar or other PvP zone objectives, but with some actual effort behind objectives. And it would need a way to prevent people from just zerging stuff, so probably some sort of task distribution system, not just "herp derp go stand next to a flag, more people you have, faster it goes". And you would need a far more in depth reward system, not just lazy daily/weekly quests or a big payout for a specific event. Ideally it would become it's own game mode of sorts, like m+ for PvE.

But at that point, is it really different from a conventional battleground? And why would they put in the effort in to something that will be deserted in 2 year's time, over making an actual battleground? I don't think there's an easy way to "fix" warmode, or rather, world pvp. But I don't think it will be something where low, or even moderate, effort will suffice.

[Accendor]

According to a lecture on youtube:
A Free-for-all-PvP game with skill gameplay is a cursed design problem because to win it requires "politics" gameplay.
While the fun of the game is supposed to come from "combat mastery" and "skill"...to win...it requires politics.
So is considered a game design cursed problem.



Warmode saw some changes already.
-The warmode pvp quests stopped counting if you are in a raid group.
-Flightpath ganking doesnt count for completion of the quest

But what could make Warmode fun and engaging for everyone?

According to the lecture several game design choices can make it fun but there always needs to be a sacrifice.
Sacrifice information, communication or even give in and focus more on the politics instead of skill.

What would you do to make warmode fun?

Enforce faction Balance. Its non existent at all anywhere.
Give good reasons to do it, it needs a rewardstructure.

[Relapses]

Enforce faction Balance. Its non existent at all anywhere.
Give good reasons to do it, it needs a rewardstructure.

What better way to create a wholesome social environment which welcomes friends to play with one another than a giant fucking sign that says "Fuck you, reroll or play on a different server."

[saixilein]

Balancing factions would be nice. Most of the time if warmode is on im somewhere where we stomp people, cause we are way more players, or we get stomped, cause we are much less.

There should be a pvp sandbox area, where u can do objectives, farming mats/ressources, with some camps of elite npcs. PvP should also be somehow rewarding in making gold. In raids you can get an boe and can sell it for alot of gold (in the first weeks of a new tier) you can buy 1-2 wow tokens with it. As a pvpler u dokt get anything.

There should be some more pvp items that bring some fun. Lower cooldown of poitions aswell.

Players with long killingstreaks should get a Bounty and you should get nice rewards for killing this player.

I mean overall ashran was a nice idea, but it was ugly, bad balanced, many objectives were bad and most of the time u didnt know what to do or just farmed mobs.

Also you should lose something important if you die (to many times). Amd maybe phasing people based on their pvp mmr/experience. Ita not fun to stomp bad/new players and its not fun to get stomped.

Most fun pvp i had was in Tol Barad, Stranglethronvale and timeless island

[Oneirophobia]

I thought Nazjatar had a good take on warmode until the server-crashing shenanigans began. If Blizz can reign that in, then I'd welcome TBC or Nazjatar style "zone objectives". Flying mounts kinda crap on stuff like that though.

[Khaza-R]

Balancing factions would be nice. Most of the time if warmode is on im somewhere where we stomp people, cause we are way more players, or we get stomped, cause we are much less.

Pretty much my experience as well. Whenever I turn it on its usually one extreme of farming the enemy faction or getting farmed.

Most people don't seem to want a fair fight in PvP however, so I am not sure how popular using phasing to gate factions might be. Even though I personally would love it. I think modern players are too obsessed with winning. Look at the joke that Classic PvP servers are at this point.

[Rocksteady 87]

Pretty much my experience as well. Whenever I turn it on its usually one extreme of farming the enemy faction or getting farmed.

Most people don't seem to want a fair fight in PvP however, so I am not sure how popular using phasing to gate factions might be. Even though I personally would love it. I think modern players are too obsessed with winning. Look at the joke that Classic PvP servers are at this point.

It's almost like that's the exact reason they introduced battlegrounds in vanilla.

Who'd have thunk it?

[Battlebeard]

I don't think you can, in any way, make world pvp fun to begin with.

[Biomega]

I don't think you can, in any way, make world pvp fun to begin with.

Pretty much.

PvP only works with boundaries, otherwise it quickly spirals out of control. Level disparity? GG oneshot. Facing multiple enemies? GG can't win. Doing quests and getting ambushed at a bad time? GG no way to live. And so on and so forth.

As was said already, the whole REASON we got instanced PvP is that in order to make PvP balanced and equitable, there have to be limitations that enforce that balance. In World PvP, that just doesn't exist.

You know what people usually cite as the best examples of WoW world PvP? Things like the old "Tarren Mill vs. Southshore" clashes. And you know what those effectively were? SELF-MADE BATTLEGROUNDS.

The romantic fantasy of World PvP being this awesome space where you can find ad-hoc matches of exciting PvP action that leaves both sides satisfied and happy to be in a vibrant world is exactly that: A FANTASY.

Instead, what happens is you're doing a WQ for 10% extra rewards, and some clown and his four friends chase you with a net launcher to repeatedly kill you for weekly quest credit or the lulz, as you desperately try to see whether they'll get bored first or you quit in anger.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

If I saw any of you at Thrallmar or Tarren Mill I'd kill you on sight.

[arkanon]

Pretty much.

PvP only works with boundaries, otherwise it quickly spirals out of control. Level disparity? GG oneshot. Facing multiple enemies? GG can't win. Doing quests and getting ambushed at a bad time? GG no way to live. And so on and so forth.

As was said already, the whole REASON we got instanced PvP is that in order to make PvP balanced and equitable, there have to be limitations that enforce that balance. In World PvP, that just doesn't exist.

You know what people usually cite as the best examples of WoW world PvP? Things like the old "Tarren Mill vs. Southshore" clashes. And you know what those effectively were? SELF-MADE BATTLEGROUNDS.

The romantic fantasy of World PvP being this awesome space where you can find ad-hoc matches of exciting PvP action that leaves both sides satisfied and happy to be in a vibrant world is exactly that: A FANTASY.

Instead, what happens is you're doing a WQ for 10% extra rewards, and some clown and his four friends chase you with a net launcher to repeatedly kill you for weekly quest credit or the lulz, as you desperately try to see whether they'll get bored first or you quit in anger.

I have said this so many times over the years, but the only difference between a pvp and pve realm (when they were a thing) is the ability to engage in unequal pvp - an unfair fight. Blizzard created systems for a fair fight many, many years ago.

[Relapses]

I have said this so many times over the years, but the only difference between a pvp and pve realm (when they were a thing) is the ability to engage in unequal pvp - an unfair fight. Blizzard created systems for a fair fight many, many years ago.

On a single faction-dominated server, sure. But if you were on one of the vanishingly few 50/50 H:A servers, group PvP would frequently happen at world bosses and summoning stones.

[arkanon]

On a single faction-dominated server, sure. But if you were on one of the vanishingly few 50/50 H:A servers, group PvP would frequently happen at world bosses and summoning stones.

Yes, in both scenarios it was unwanted by one of the groups - the ones trying to kill the world boss, and the ones trying to summon their friends.

[Relapses]

Yes, in both scenarios it was unwanted by one of the groups - the ones trying to kill the world boss, and the ones trying to summon their friends.

I mean, that goes both ways. You'd sometimes meet completely pacifist groups who'd profusely emote apologies if they so much as accidentally auto-attacked you and then you'd have people who'd gather an entire server to decimate one dude and corpse camp the poor guy for an hour because "if it's red, it's dead." It was a unique experience and one which I think was closest to what I think the devs envisioned when they first thought of PvP realms. The sad reality is that 99% of realms were faction dominated because, well, that's just what people do. WillE did a pretty interesting video on this recently.