Diablo 4 to have NO item Trading and will have Guarantied Class Focused Drops...

[Ampt69]

Everything that makes diablo "diablo" is effectively dead. This is just Diablo 3.5.....


Gotta say my excitement has completely tanked for this game.

So you are going to cry over the one feature the diablo community BEGGED and PLEADED for from Blizzard for the first like 2-3 years of D3's existence? That's genuinely hilarious, you prove the fact that the entirety of blizzards game community are nothing but a bunch of entitled babies that will cry over anything just for the sake of crying.

You want an ARPG with a trading system, go play Path of Exile with all the other whiners.

[Ghost of Cow]

Jesus...It's more than obvious the d2 fanbase was a, if not THE driving factor in the launch of the game. You cannot project otherwise. It's almost the sole reason to make the game. (from Blizzard's point of view) It's the same reason a vast majority of movies made today are based off of existing franchises, or sequels, or remakes; Because they come with built in fan bases.

No one review bombed, the game, the game is not very good. Just because lots of people play//listen//watch//whatever something - Isn't a true indicator of how good something is; More people have watched Keeping up wit the Kardashians than The Wire, and I think it's fair to say which one of these two television shows is better than the other...

A better set of statistics to have would be those involving retention, and duration of such a stat. If D2 had 4 million players (incoming made up statistic) I'm willing to wager half of them played for the course of this games life span (i.e somewhere in the 6 year mark or so) One of the main factors that kept up this longevity, was the ability to trade items. I see people saying how it's not core to the game, but I'm not sure how one could say this? Anyone who has played D2 or really any arpg since, will tell you otherwise. (The fact that every big arpg since has universally had different modes, i.e ssf or trade will also indicate this)

I'd like to see how many people concurrently play D3 vs the 31 million whom have purchased the game; If anyone still plays this game, it's because they're either blizzard fan boys whom have a near impossible time critiquing anything from this studio, or they're too impatient and or simple to learn how to play PoE which is a much much much much much much much much better game (that has tons of faults don't get me wrong) and that game is fucking free.

All this sounds like is, "I like one and hate the other and nothing will convince me of anything other than D3 sucking", though.

"Sold a lot? Doesn't matter. People played it a lot? Doesn't matter. People like it? They're just Blizz fanboys. (Unlike D2 players, I guess)"

That's not a reasoned argument, that's the attitude of someone that decided they hate something and stuck their head in the sand.

[Biomega]

Because D2 is a fantastic game

See my point is, you just go "D2 is a fantastic game and D3 is a crappy game" pretty loosey-goosey.

If you don't like one but do like the other, that's 100% legit. That doesn't mean one is a "crappy" game and the other isn't.

MILLIONS of people liked D3. Quite evidently. Those were not necessarily THE SAME people who liked D2, probably there was quite a bit of divergence in fact. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

There is this perception that D2 sets the standard for the entire franchise, and that's a bit strange to me. It was a game I liked a lot and continue to like in its D2R version, but it's quite different from D3 - and I'm sure it'll be quite different from D4, too. I don't judge D3 by how it stacks up against D2, and I won't judge D4 by how it stacks up against D2 or D3, either. I don't really see why that would be a good way of approaching things.

[glowpipe]

You act like they won't continue the low drop rates. So much for being able to beat the old casino shit luck system, eh? Just have to either be the lotto winner or enjoy being fucked until you are!

Sounds fantastic /s

This is why deterministic loot > endless low-probability loot. Someone else getting something I want that would be build-enabling while I do the same thing they do 10-20-50-100 times would make me want to go to the game dev's office in person and shit on their door step.

I'm not saying trading is good, but trading at least lets me circumvent retarded loot luck, which is still undoubtedly going to exist in diablo 4.

low droprate loot was only a problem in diablo 3 until they removed the trading with the AH's. Getting the item you need in diablo 3 is not a problem. Getting a good one is however. So there is no reason to believe getting items in d4 will be hard with low drop rates

[Endus]

No one is pretending D2 doesn't have issues, many parts of the game are dates as fuck.

I mean, we're specifically talking about trading, and trading in D2 was easily one of that game's biggest flaws. Scamming was rampant and difficult for Blizzard to properly prosecute, the community ended up inventing currencies because the game's in-built currencies were garbage. Hacking and duping items was also so wildly common that it destroyed the economy several times, and Blizzard had trouble keeping track of all of it. I can't be the only one who remembers when Stones of Jordan were the standard currency until that "economy" was completely borked and collapsed because of the massive numbers of duped SoJs being created.

That's half the reason Blizzard tried to create a solid built-in trading system in D3; because the D2 trading debacle was such a colossal shit-show.

[BeepBoo]

low droprate loot was only a problem in diablo 3 until they removed the trading with the AH's. Getting the item you need in diablo 3 is not a problem. Getting a good one is however. So there is no reason to believe getting items in d4 will be hard with low drop rates

Good items are the only ones that are worth keeping. If you can get build-enablers, that's better than I expected, so I'll give you that, but the whole point is to not have scrub tier stuff.

[Cavein]

All this sounds like is, "I like one and hate the other and nothing will convince me of anything other than D3 sucking", though.

"Sold a lot? Doesn't matter. People played it a lot? Doesn't matter. People like it? They're just Blizz fanboys. (Unlike D2 players, I guess)"

That's not a reasoned argument, that's the attitude of someone that decided they hate something and stuck their head in the sand.

Yes, popularity doesn't = good.

there are currently 16k players playing the game, is that a lot? People can like it, there's a difference between liking something, and knowing weather or not it's good. For instance, I like the movie Demolition Man.... A lot. I'm not going to pretend like it's a good movie.

I played tens of thousands of hours of D2, so obviously I enjoyed the game, enough to buy 3, and play it through the first god awful rmah iteration, and to buy the necro pack, I've played thousands of hours of it, i didn't decide to just bury my head in the sand, I'm talking from experience.

When the new league starts and there's like 30k players playing, half of them for a couple days, til it gets hella boring - compare it to a much better game like poe which will have millions of players.

The proof is in the pudding, but sounds like you've already made up your mind that it's a good game. Get your head out of the sand before it's too late.

[Th3Scourge]

I mean, we're specifically talking about trading, and trading in D2 was easily one of that game's biggest flaws. Scamming was rampant and difficult for Blizzard to properly prosecute, the community ended up inventing currencies because the game's in-built currencies were garbage. Hacking and duping items was also so wildly common that it destroyed the economy several times, and Blizzard had trouble keeping track of all of it. I can't be the only one who remembers when Stones of Jordan were the standard currency until that "economy" was completely borked and collapsed because of the massive numbers of duped SoJs being created.

That's half the reason Blizzard tried to create a solid built-in trading system in D3; because the D2 trading debacle was such a colossal shit-show.

They could've gone with the wow model for the AH/trading, instead we got loot 2.0 in reaper of souls, which was the worst of both worlds (BOP, no trading, no AH)

[Nymrohd]

What if we just want to share gear between friends?

And you still have to play if you want to find good gear to trade.

I think that will actually be doable. Diablo Immortal has this system where when you play with friends (your warband) you can get warband chests in addition to the items that were rolled for your character specifically. And those have gear you can share with your friends. It's a bit problematic in DI because of warbands being too small but I'd hope they fix that (it's probably the number one complaint of the people who actually play DI). It seems people have seen similar UI elements already existing for D4. So perhaps there is no open market but rather a closed market for your group of friends.

[Beefhammer]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing. Sales begets sales. Without that initial pump, it may never had sold well. Also like for like comparisons are not reasonable considering much of what exists today in terms of marketing and reach did not exist in 2000. You had insane franchise recognition, a 11 year delay between franchise releases, Blizzard becoming a household name in that time period and the burning question about when D3 was going to be made/released. The hype was epic, the Blizzcon reveal was massive.

Blizzard's marketing department did a fantastic job selling a crappy sequel. Full credit to them

Bad games, especially as bad as the rhetoric was, do not become one of the best selling games of all time despite the marketing.

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See my point is, you just go "D2 is a fantastic game and D3 is a crappy game" pretty loosey-goosey.

If you don't like one but do like the other, that's 100% legit. That doesn't mean one is a "crappy" game and the other isn't.

MILLIONS of people liked D3. Quite evidently. Those were not necessarily THE SAME people who liked D2, probably there was quite a bit of divergence in fact. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

There is this perception that D2 sets the standard for the entire franchise, and that's a bit strange to me. It was a game I liked a lot and continue to like in its D2R version, but it's quite different from D3 - and I'm sure it'll be quite different from D4, too. I don't judge D3 by how it stacks up against D2, and I won't judge D4 by how it stacks up against D2 or D3, either. I don't really see why that would be a good way of approaching things.

I judge games individually. A lot of the D3 hate comes from it not being D2 with better graphics. It was designed to be a different experience. Cut out some of the bad with what they thought would be better. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, they change a lot more of the bad with RoS. All three mainline games are good, just different. Nothing wrong with that.

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If anyone still plays this game, it's because they're either blizzard fan boys whom have a near impossible time critiquing anything from this studio, or they're too impatient and or simple to learn how to play PoE which is a much much much much much much much much better game (that has tons of faults don't get me wrong) and that game is fucking free.

This is how I know you have no intention of having a honest discussion.

[Segus1992]

That's the beauty of trading: You never actually have to! You can play an ARPG like PoE or D2 as long as you want and literally never trade with another person, even if the system exists to allow it.

Yes just like you don't have to fly if you don't like flying in WoW.

Both arguments are equally terrible. If you play PoE non-SSF and you don't engage in trading at all you will SEVERELY hinder yourself. The game is also not balanced around SSF so you're meant to use their terrible trading system.

For reference I have many thousands of hours in these games (mostly PoE) - I think trading should exist but I also think PoE relies on it far too heavily.

[Endus]

They could've gone with the wow model for the AH/trading, instead we got loot 2.0 in reaper of souls, which was the worst of both worlds (BOP, no trading, no AH)

The loot 2.0 model in Reaper of Souls works the best for me, and a heck of a lot of other people. As I went over extensively in prior posts, I have negative interest in poking around any in-game or out-of-game auction house for the stuff I need. I'd rather be playing the game and enjoying myself. The only trading I have any interest in or desire to see, even though I'll never use it, is a system where group members can trade drops that dropped while grouped. Beyond that, I don't see any particular value to item trading. Getting rare drops you need for a build can be better-addressed by adjusting drop rates. Getting the right currencies for crafting/content use is the same. Trading is just a shitty cover so you don't need to balance things appropriately, in both of those cases.

[Davidw]

Yes Yes Yes finally!!! This means you will be able to get loot that is awesome through playing the game instead of trading or buying the game. They can balance loot drop on single player rather than every item shared, so your magic find is probably 1000% higher and your going to find great items. This is awesome as I really despise playing RPG's when decent gear is only found through the trade/buy system.

[Somic]

Yes Yes Yes finally!!! This means you will be able to get loot that is awesome through playing the game instead of trading or buying the game. They can balance loot drop on single player rather than every item shared, so your magic find is probably 1000% higher and your going to find great items. This is awesome as I really despise playing RPG's when decent gear is only found through the trade/buy system.

That’s sort of what I was thinking. Sure it sucks that you can’t give friends items but the trade off is that people can’t be buying gold or just trading their way to good gear. It sounds pretty good to me tbh

[Edge-]

It’s not that simple. If global trading is enabled, the game (read: loot) will be balanced around that. That means you will inadvertently get chase items for classes you might have no intentions of playing whereas if trading wasn’t an option, you’d get something useful for you instead.

Everyone keeps using this word (bolded), but it's incorrect. They do not need to balance loot around trade, and they shouldn't. Just like they didn't balance loot around the RMAH - they simply had a vastly different philosophy on loot that was hilariously wrong because a lot of the people leading the development of D3 learned all the wrong lessons for why D2 was so successful and lasted so long.

Again, PoE, a F2P ARPG, exists with loot drops balanced around SSF (solo self found). You can progress more than fine without ever trading in PoE, as you can in just about every ARPG I've ever played, regardless of if it featured trading or not.

And the drop you're talking about would be the result of the Smart Loot system and has nothing to do with trade. Even without trade Smart Loot is pretty "meh" IMO. I like it to a point, but getting few/no drops for other classes is similarly lame as hell. Sometimes you just wanna farm gear for an alt you're starting on so you can bypass the early grind on a weak character, yaknow?

[Beefhammer]

Everyone keeps using this word (bolded), but it's incorrect. They do not need to balance loot around trade, and they shouldn't. Just like they didn't balance loot around the RMAH - they simply had a vastly different philosophy on loot that was hilariously wrong because a lot of the people leading the development of D3 learned all the wrong lessons for why D2 was so successful and lasted so long.

Again, PoE, a F2P ARPG, exists with loot drops balanced around SSF (solo self found). You can progress more than fine without ever trading in PoE, as you can in just about every ARPG I've ever played, regardless of if it featured trading or not.

And the drop you're talking about would be the result of the Smart Loot system and has nothing to do with trade. Even without trade Smart Loot is pretty "meh" IMO. I like it to a point, but getting few/no drops for other classes is similarly lame as hell. Sometimes you just wanna farm gear for an alt you're starting on so you can bypass the early grind on a weak character, yaknow?

It had nothing to do with trading considering the vast majority never played online to trade. And sure, you can say it lasted a long time, I wouldn't consider 1-2% that played online and the fraction of those still left, to be something to really brag about when talking about the game lasting so long. Modding and offline play has far more to do with it. Trading for a small subset of players.

But Beef, the majority of Poe players play trading leagues. Yeah, becasue that is really the only way to get the good stuff.

[Edge-]

I think that will actually be doable. Diablo Immortal has this system where when you play with friends (your warband) you can get warband chests in addition to the items that were rolled for your character specifically. And those have gear you can share with your friends. It's a bit problematic in DI because of warbands being too small but I'd hope they fix that (it's probably the number one complaint of the people who actually play DI). It seems people have seen similar UI elements already existing for D4. So perhaps there is no open market but rather a closed market for your group of friends.

Yeah, but that's just co-op loot sharing which is not really trading. Makes sense with personal loot drops, but not trading. Like, I'm talking about if I'm spending a night grinding and find a few sick items for a friends character, being able to give them those items.

That's shit I do with my brother and a few other friends in PoE now, and we used to do in D2. We don't always play at the same time, but we're all always on the lookout for gear for each other and it makes the game more fun and social. Now we'll just be talking about that sick item that dropped that we can't give another person.

If you play PoE non-SSF and you don't engage in trading at all you will SEVERELY hinder yourself. The game is also not balanced around SSF so you're meant to use their terrible trading system.

You hinder yourself compared to folks that trade, sure. But even if you trade you're "hindered" compared to folks with strong characters, better farming strats etc. etc.

I'll try to find it, but IIRC yes, drops are overall balanced around SSF and not trade league. Yes, trading in PoE is awful but that's by intention on GGG's part, and there are a TON of solutions that range from proper AH's (which I'm not even a big fan of) to setting up player-run stores in their hideouts so you can interact with a NPC to buy their listed items there etc. (or at least currencies).

For reference I have many thousands of hours in these games (mostly PoE) - I think trading should exist but I also think PoE relies on it far too heavily.

Do you have any of that time spent on SSF to see the drop rate? Because I have a handful of characters there (really only 2 to "endgame") and the variety of my drops and the quality is pretty excellent overall. Few specific items I'm still chasing and not getting due to RNG (like Dead Reckoning for skelemages), but largely it's a pretty fine experience. Obviously slower gear progress without trading, but honestly you eventually get to a point where you don't really need to trade. I put together a very strong off-meta lightning trap sab using gear I'd been holding onto in my stash with only a bit of crafting to get some specific rolls/mods I needed for that character to work and it remains arguably my strongest SSF character and one of my tankiest characters period.

My brother's SSF characters, which is all he plays, at this point are arguably better geared and he's got more wealth/rare items on SSF than he does even with all his leagues of accumulated characters/wealth on standard.

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It had nothing to do with trading considering the vast majority never played online to trade. And sure, you can say it lasted a long time, I wouldn't consider 1-2% that played online and the fraction of those still left, to be something to really brag about when talking about the game lasting so long. Modding and offline play has far more to do with it. Trading for a small subset of players.

But Beef, the majority of Poe players play trading leagues. Yeah, becasue that is really the only way to get the good stuff.

Diablo 2's longterm success was driven in large part by the trading economy that kept folks farming and engaging for years and years, even without third party sites like JSP. It's a great game and plenty never engaged in trading at all, or played on Open Bnet for hacked items and shit, but the core of what kept Closed Bnet up was the seasonal races to max level and the trading that cropped up around that.

Majority in PoE play trade league because it's easier to trade for gear, as you say. But there are still plenty who play SSF only, including a number of streamers that basically exclusively play SSF/HCSSF. Even if you do play trade league, the majority of folks playing engage in few trades overall due to the experience being bad by design. There are ways to support trading but still discourage heavy use of trading through annoying systems that exist to limit the appeal of extensively using it.

[The Oblivion]

Jesus...It's more than obvious the d2 fanbase was a, if not THE driving factor in the launch of the game. You cannot project otherwise. It's almost the sole reason to make the game. (from Blizzard's point of view) It's the same reason a vast majority of movies made today are based off of existing franchises, or sequels, or remakes; Because they come with built in fan bases.

No one review bombed, the game, the game is not very good. Just because lots of people play//listen//watch//whatever something - Isn't a true indicator of how good something is; More people have watched Keeping up wit the Kardashians than The Wire, and I think it's fair to say which one of these two television shows is better than the other...

A better set of statistics to have would be those involving retention, and duration of such a stat. If D2 had 4 million players (incoming made up statistic) I'm willing to wager half of them played for the course of this games life span (i.e somewhere in the 6 year mark or so) One of the main factors that kept up this longevity, was the ability to trade items. I see people saying how it's not core to the game, but I'm not sure how one could say this? Anyone who has played D2 or really any arpg since, will tell you otherwise. (The fact that every big arpg since has universally had different modes, i.e ssf or trade will also indicate this)

I'd like to see how many people concurrently play D3 vs the 31 million whom have purchased the game; If anyone still plays this game, it's because they're either blizzard fan boys whom have a near impossible time critiquing anything from this studio, or they're too impatient and or simple to learn how to play PoE which is a much much much much much much much much better game (that has tons of faults don't get me wrong) and that game is fucking free.

you think poe is a better game, and thats fine. its your opinion. mine is that poe is a garbage game with more bloat than any other game in existence, it plays like shit compared to d3, its talent tree's are mostly pointless nodes. POE is in my opinion, one of the worst arpgs to play currently. d3 shits on it in every way.

[El Gucaragua]

so "Trust me Bro, my Uncle works for Sony Online Entertainment"

It'd be more reputable if he worked for Sega Genesis.

[The Oblivion]

Yes, popularity doesn't = good.

there are currently 16k players playing the game, is that a lot? People can like it, there's a difference between liking something, and knowing weather or not it's good. For instance, I like the movie Demolition Man.... A lot. I'm not going to pretend like it's a good movie.

I played tens of thousands of hours of D2, so obviously I enjoyed the game, enough to buy 3, and play it through the first god awful rmah iteration, and to buy the necro pack, I've played thousands of hours of it, i didn't decide to just bury my head in the sand, I'm talking from experience.

When the new league starts and there's like 30k players playing, half of them for a couple days, til it gets hella boring - compare it to a much better game like poe which will have millions of players.

The proof is in the pudding, but sounds like you've already made up your mind that it's a good game. Get your head out of the sand before it's too late.

if you dont think poe loses most of its player the week after league start, you are VERY mistaken. its exactly the same as d3 in that regard.

also something being good or bad is purely subjective. no one can decide what is good vs bad, it will be different for everyone. so it being bad is just your take on it and holds no weight.