Which dragon opposer will get screwed the most?

[Super Dickmann]

Didn't the aspects lose their power due to sacrificing it to defeat Deathwing? That doesn't seem like the titans' intent, or did i miss anything?

At any rate it is implied in the stuff spoiled so far we'll re-infuse them, or at least offer to somehow fix them, and that we'll use titanic machinery for the job.

The Titans gave them their powers to avert the Hour of Twilight which only took place because of Deathwing, who wouldn't have been able to do so or even be corrupted if the Titans hadn't made him Earthwarder.

[plz delete account]

Saurfang are still alive

yo he died like two expansions ago

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

According to the Aspects, at least, it was. All of them intimate that the Titans empowered them to "avert the Hour of Twilight," and that expending their powers to do so was part and parcel of their destiny.

Or so the writers say, even if it wasn't the case as the Titan Keepers empowered them to help protect and develop Azeroth without any ending planned.

[Kralljin]

Dragonmaw: Nobody cares, they get a cameo where some old orc feels sorry and that's that.
There may be some fringe mention of them "hurrdurr remember what the Dragonmaw did" but that's about it.

Odyn: either he becomes a boss or he'll be ignored.

I hope for the latter because Odyn is my favorite character of the last 6 years of WoW, mainly because he's a self parody but it's something.

Tyr / Titans: Maybe, maybe not.
The thing is that the Titans are de facto dead (i mean, they are dead but did we "ress" them at the end of Legion?), so i don't really see a point of the Titans or their intention really becoming a topic because there's no real payoff to it.

I think this whole thing just gets brushed under the table and everyone goes "yay, we can have kids again!"

If i had to pick however, then the Titans and how they'll be to blame for everything bad happened to the Dragons (despite creating them) and how they owe them nothing.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Though it isn't the only inconstency and continuity change they made during Cataclysm, such as the Demon Soul being useable on Deathwing or the dragons' fertility issue.

[Aucald]

Or so the writers say, even if it wasn't the case as the Titan Keepers empowered them to help protect and develop Azeroth without any ending planned.

Both things can ultimately be true - that they had a perennial task to oversee Azeroth development and, at the appointed time, conclusively end a specific Old God threat by using their powers to do so. The writers are the ones who control WoW's canon, so we have to necessarily defer to them in regard to what the story is or says, as well.

[Super Dickmann]

If i had to pick however, then the Titans and how they'll be to blame for everything bad happened to the Dragons (despite creating them) and how they owe them nothing.

There's a lot to be said about how the best character in years in terms of nuance in his heroism is an incidental side npc that's a paper-thin riff on a myth.

In any case, while the Titans were dead for one book and then immediately changed to captured, the Keepers are still around and are pushed in terms of role and it's they who actually had a proper bond to the dragons, so I don't see the expansion letting it go given the primary conflict seems to be dragons as predators/elementals and tied to Azeroth vs. dragons as executors of the Titans' design.

[plz delete account]

yada yada yada

buy the Anduin shirt

[Progenitor Aquarius]

There is also Turalyon, who might be on the list as a person who opposes dragons. According to this conversation:
https://www.wowhead.com/news/turalyo...nflight-327754

[Varodoc]

Which Saurfang is alive ? Did i miss something ?

yo he died like two expansions ago

I meant that he and other veterans of the Second War survived to join the WoW Horde. So the idea that the WoW Horde is a "New" Horde is complete BS when it had Second War veterans amongst its ranks (First War veterans in the case of Saurfang, I might add).

As we know, the Dragonmaw orcs officially joined the Horde in Cataclysm. Who knows how many of those people were actually there in the Second War and took part in the obscenities committed at Grim Batol? Surely this cannot be ignored by the writers /copium.

- - - Updated - - -

There is also Turalyon, who might be on the list as a person who opposes dragons. According to this conversation:
https://www.wowhead.com/news/turalyo...nflight-327754

Perhaps it would be good if people here reviewed some of the lore from Classic.

Maybe it should be reminded just how much Stormwind suffered at the hands of a dragon, Onyxia. For instance, remember the whole conflict between Stormwind and the Defias that lasted for several years and even led to the death of Queen Tiffin Wrynn? It was Onyxia who orchestrated it, by manipulating both sides (the nobility and the Stonemasons) and pitting them against one another. The abduction of Varian Wrynn? Also Onyxia's doing, as she conspired with the Defias to abduct him and ship him off to a pirate gang in Kalimdor, which would keep captive for years. The complete withdrawal of Stormwind troops from Westfall and Burning Steppes? Again Onyxia's doing. She sent Stormwind troops elsewhere so that her allies in those regions, the Defias and Nefarian respectively, could grow their power bases without Stormwind's meddling.

How can Turalyon call himself "Regent" and "Protector" of Stormwind, if he doesn't keep a watch on those creatures? The people of Stormwind agree with him btw, as seen by those dialogues from the guards. The dragons will never again be welcomed in Stormwind ever, until they atone for the crimes of one of their own, Onyxia. It is also logical and very responsible of Turalyon to bring up the Dracthyr's use of mortal forms; that's how Onyxia manipulated Stormwind after all, she took on human visage.

It should also be noted that even Onyxia's father, Deathwing, did his fair share of manipulation of humans. Like Onyxia, he took on human form and manipulated Lordaeron from within.

[Deneios]

Its going to be the dwarven dragon hunters from wc3. They will shoot a whelp ala southpark gag "its got a weapon and its coming at us" and we have to find and bring them to justice

[Kralljin]

In any case, while the Titans were dead for one book and then immediately changed to captured, the Keepers are still around and are pushed in terms of role and it's they who actually had a proper bond to the dragons, so I don't see the expansion letting it go given the primary conflict seems to be dragons as predators/elementals and tied to Azeroth vs. dragons as executors of the Titans' design.

Problem is that Keepers themselves are either dead or inactive and don't seem to have much drive.

You have Odyn, who always disapproved of Dragons to begin with so Dragons suddenly "rebelling" against him seems kinda stupid if they want to break away from that legacy.
The only other Keepers only have a loose connection to dragons or are flat out dead (Tyr, Ra-den).

They would really have to pull a Titan Keeper out of their hat who suddenly wants to force the dragons back into that serving role of the Titans (nevermind that they've been kept on a very "loose" leash to begin with) to make that story work.
Them shoehorning that in is always a possibility however, especially because it fits their fetish to portray a cosmic force as non benelovent.

[BaumanKing]

My money is on the Dragonmaw. Since WC2, MU orcish clans have been constantly abused, diluted or completely neutered. Modern writers are sure to continue this trend.

[Moonrage]

I hope we see Odyn again this expansion. I like that he is kind of a shady character, it's very fitting considering the god he's based on. In fact, he seems to be one of the few morally grey characters.

[cparle87]

I'm assuming they mean "backsies" in the form of the Aspects getting de-empowered in Cata, and then re-empowered again in Dragonflight as it seems will be the case.

I personally would like to see the Aspects and Odyn finally meet and hash it out, though. I would imagine both would have a lot to say to one another in the vein of failures both real and imagined - especially since, insofar as corruption and dereliction of duty go, both the Aspects and the Keepers are about neck and neck.

I would definitely like to see this. I'm super Odyn would take Deathwing's corruption and their depowerment as an "I-win" button.

[Super Dickmann]

Problem is that Keepers themselves are either dead or inactive and don't seem to have much drive.

You have Odyn, who always disapproved of Dragons to begin with so Dragons suddenly "rebelling" against him seems kinda stupid if they want to break away from that legacy.
The only other Keepers only have a loose connection to dragons or are flat out dead (Tyr, Ra-den).

They would really have to pull a Titan Keeper out of their hat who suddenly wants to force the dragons back into that serving role of the Titans (nevermind that they've been kept on a very "loose" leash to begin with) to make that story work.
Them shoehorning that in is always a possibility however, especially because it fits their fetish to portray a cosmic force as non benelovent.

Odyn is screwed if he comes up because he's the go-to voice for everything wrong with dragons and how buffing them has gone wrong and this expansion is premium dragon wank. If he doesn't appear he's home free, if he does there's no way it pans out well for him.

As for the rest of the Keepers, it's not so much that they're all dead are dead, Freya and Odyn are still around, Archaedas is implied to be fixable and so forth, it's that there's nothing there. The Keepers have no dynamic with the dragons. Sure, we told they 'channeled the Titans' to empower the dragons in Chronicle, but their relationship essentially amounted to showing them where the house keys were and running off, so there's no room for any drama. The real drama lies in whether the Titans planned for them to be re-empowered and it was a psyche-out or if it's framed more as the Titans being wrong/dicks to disempower them and the dragons having to get the newly introduced Keepers to fix them up to solve the baddies. Though on that front, having the baddies' motive hinge on the retardation of the Titans empowering the Aspects to resolve a problem created by empowering the Aspects is an inspired choice, I'll give them that.

@BaumanKing

Pretty much. As Blizzard have gradually moved away from having any playable faction not called the Mag'har not be whiter than the driven snow the Dragonmaw have become increasingly incongruous. Their only paths forward are being abolished or becoming friendly How to Train your Dragon types.

[loras]

The Titans gave them their powers to avert the Hour of Twilight which only took place because of Deathwing, who wouldn't have been able to do so or even be corrupted if the Titans hadn't made him Earthwarder.

According to the Aspects, at least, it was. All of them intimate that the Titans empowered them to "avert the Hour of Twilight," and that expending their powers to do so was part and parcel of their destiny.

Curious, but given the nature of the old gods this may still not have been the titans' intent, but rather the old gods'.
The hour of twilight may not have been a single event in the timeways after all, and the old gods, knowing their penchant for failure, lost in the way that would cause the most strife and benefit them the most and allow them to try again.

Could be an interesting plot point nonetheless, as the dragons may presume that the titans had envisioned this particular fate for them, whereas the titans are like "You knew what you signed up for, and against what. We didn't know it would be this exact one.".

[Nymrohd]

Curious, but given the nature of the old gods this may still not have been the titans' intent, but rather the old gods'.
The hour of twilight may not have been a single event in the timeways after all, and the old gods, knowing their penchant for failure, lost in the way that would cause the most strife and benefit them the most and allow them to try again.

Could be an interesting plot point nonetheless, as the dragons may presume that the titans had envisioned this particular fate for them, whereas the titans are like "You knew what you signed up for, and against what. We didn't know it would be this exact one.".

It could be that the Hour of Twilight is how the Titans described Azeroth falling to the Old Godsm i.e. not a singular event in time but rather a specific outcome. So yes, one was almost caused by Deathwing and the Aspects averted it. But ANOTHER was caused by N'zoth in 8.3 and the dragons kind of helped avert it by empowering the Heart of Azeroth. And a third one may be in the future.

[Kralljin]

The real drama lies in whether the Titans planned for them to be re-empowered and it was a psyche-out or if it's framed more as the Titans being wrong/dicks to disempower them and the dragons having to get the newly introduced Keepers to fix them up to solve the baddies. Though on that front, having the baddies' motive hinge on the retardation of the Titans empowering the Aspects to resolve a problem created by empowering the Aspects is an inspired choice, I'll give them that.

I don't think the Titans planned for the Old Gods to be ever destroyed either, that basically raises the question what the Titan Keepers themselves should now be doing in the first place since the Keepers were literally created to fight the Old Gods and then keep them in check afterwards.

You would not only have to introduce new Titan keepers who completely break with the attitude of the previous ones (barring Odyn) but also come up with a reason what those Titan keepers are up to.
Dragons just "somehow breaking with the Titans" doesn't really work because the Titans are completely demystified due to being locked up with Sargeras and never were portrayed as a object of worship that you could turn this into good old religious fanaticism.

The issue is that the Titans role as "villains" hinged upon them just being cold and calculating, meaning they wanted to re order to the planet because they deemed it too corrupted by the Old Gods, not necessarily because they're straight evil.
Whereas this role of Titans as villains just comes across as "You did something our creator didn't intent, thus you're bad!" has no merit to it other than being evil.

[Super Dickmann]

The issue is that the Titans role as "villains" hinged upon them just being cold and calculating, meaning they wanted to re order to the planet because they deemed it too corrupted by the Old Gods, not necessarily because they're straight evil.
Whereas this role of Titans as villains just comes across as "You did something our creator didn't intent, thus you're bad!" has no merit to it other than being evil.

I really doubt they'll go the latter angle, but the former angle is grounds enough to be considered 'hostile' by the dragons, in the sense that they were used to fill in for a job that the Keepers couldn't do. It's less about religious fanaticism since the dragons never had a religious relationship with them or the Keepers, if anything Nozdormu talks about Aman'thul as if he's, at the absolute highest, a father figure or a friend. More so it's about the conflict between the Dragons as elemental beings that were just meant to sort of exist independent of it all, being in the world long before the Titans came in the form of their elemental forebears and them as the outsourced agents implementing the Titans' plan for Azeroth.

If you keep the Cataclysm setup exactly as it is at the moment, then it's likelier the Titans will be cast in a negative light, and the newly introduced Keeper characters as making amends. Alternatively, there's some ways you can go with it. The Old God angle @loras and @Nymrohd bring up opens the opportunity for them to pivot to claiming that this trigger for them losing their powers was actually a mistake or not the foreseen end point, be it because the Old Gods abused the foreseen scenario to depower the dragons and leave the way open for them to try again or because once Nozdormu inevitably turns into Murozond over the course of DF we go to a point where he's set to initiate the 'real' Hour of Twilight/Endtime and we stop him and this is when the Aspects actually fulfill their duty, with their depowering and re-empowering both being foreseen by Aman'thul. Given how absolutely vague prophecy is and how Blizzard just got off doing the same prophecy story again in SL, the only thing for sure is that it'll be a clusterfuck.