Blizzard finally understood the value of casual players having more access to gear.

[neik]

No, I don't think so. Blizzard has done this sort of thing, only to walk it back, too many times. It can't be taken as a sign of any kind of real change in their game design.

So, no, I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Not anymore.

I hope you had a glimpse of things looking good for you and that one day you'll get them back. I was disappointed as well when they started brutalizing and raping each class after Mist of Pandaria ended. Dear player go fuck yourself because you can't have all the fun in the world in our game.

Maybe Menethil and her council is on to something, and if the council in Blizzard exist already, maybe they need even more broader opinions so that they can gather more information and start working with it exclusively.

[Soikona]

So, you want a vendor that give you free 304 ilevel gear? why do you want high ilevel if you are a 'casual'

Because it’s nice to see a number get higher, and progression is measured differently based on the person/priorities. I don’t think that’s an out of this world reason.

Like my measurement is how many mythic bosses I kill. My brother is just on ilvl.

[Polybius]

Honestly what the fuck are you people talking about? Raid leaders and perhaps guild officers occasionally have to do a bit more than 6 hours a week to get through Mythic. Every other monkey in the group just turns up and pushes buttons for 3 hours a night.

It's commitment and failure that most of you are afraid of. You're absolutely terrified that if you commit a few hours a week to something, you'll be forced to discover that you're actually just straight up not very good, and you'll no longer have the excuse of "not being a tryhard nerd loser" to hide behind. It's genuinely fucking pathetic how many of you would rather everyone be the same colour gray than have someone else who puts in more effort than you get to stand out.

On Mythic? 6 hrs per week? Yeah right. Leaders aren't the only ones who have to coordinate here. And you're not even accounting for the commitment it takes for Mythic raiding outside of raid content. You practically admitted harder content requires a larger time sink, 3 hrs per nights, than the average player inputs per week. Literally no one in the same comment thread is advocating casual players having access to higher tier, especially not players who commit more than casual and still cannot improve to higher tier.

If you don't know what we're talking about then maybe next time read the connected threads before spewing a tirade. This is why elite pompous mentality is frowned upon, you don't even bother reading or stepping out of your shoes for a minute.

[khazmodan]

Why can't you do that in m+ now?

no valor point type of currency to spend at a gear vendor and people that are doing m+ are pushing hard enough to make it feel like a job. Heroic is stupid easy to the point where I can talk all the way through with hardly any focus on the game and enjoy the idea that everybody is still getting something out of it. I am old enough to know that achieving something in this game has about as much value as punching your fist in a bucket of water, so I just want to have some social time with the guys I know that are interested in other things (like raiding).

I see they added valor points now...to little too late, and it is only for upgrading the gear you already have from mythic+...

The grind just doesn't feel worth it any more...

[Echo of Soul]

no valor point type of currency to spend at a gear vendor and people that are doing m+ are pushing hard enough to make it feel like a job. Heroic is stupid easy to the point where I can talk all the way through with hardly any focus on the game and enjoy the idea that everybody is still getting something out of it. I am old enough to know that achieving something in this game has about as much value as punching your fist in a bucket of water, so I just want to have some social time with the guys I know that are interested in other things (like raiding).

I see they added valor points now...to little too late, and it is only for upgrading the gear you already have from mythic+...

The grind just doesn't feel worth it any more...

They should just copy the tomestone system from FFXIV and let us buy heroic gear with it. A lot of casual players would probably leave FF and come back to WoW.

[Nzx]

On Mythic? 6 hrs per week? Yeah right. Leaders aren't the only ones who have to coordinate here. And you're not even accounting for the commitment it takes for Mythic raiding outside of raid content. You practically admitted harder content requires a larger time sink, 3 hrs per nights, than the average player inputs per week. Literally no one in the same comment thread is advocating casual players having access to higher tier, especially not players who commit more than casual and still cannot improve to higher tier.

If you don't know what we're talking about then maybe next time read the connected threads before spewing a tirade. This is why elite pompous mentality is frowned upon, you don't even bother reading or stepping out of your shoes for a minute.

Yes, 6 hours per week. You haven't done it, I have. What do you think people are doing? 6 hours a night 7 days a week raiding mythic for the entire patch? I'm pretty sure you just have absolutely no idea about what raiding Mythic actually entails, apart from having watched a couple of race to world first streams and deciding that everyone who raids mythic does exactly the same thing. We don't. No one except race to world first guilds, including the people filling out Hall of Fame, are sitting around writing their own weakauras and having strategy meetings or renting an office building to lan party raid. They're normal people with normal jobs and normal families playing a video game in their spare time, they're just better at those specific parts of it than you are.

If any one of you reading this legitimately want to engage with the content, and you want to improve instead of just shouting at the sky hoping that eventually Blizzard drag the game down, there are plenty of ways you can do so. Yumytv has a youtube series with a brand new character on a brand new account with no gear, no money, and no achievements and a process you can imitate to end up going from nothing to 2k/KSM in about 24-30 hours of play time. If you're this guy's "average player" playing 3 hours or less a week, this will take you somewhere around two to three months, or less time than it would take for you to complete Red Dead Redemption 2 at the same pace. I understand that if you're new to M+ you're not playing at Yumy's level, so why not set your goal at 1,500 rating and the season title for your first season instead? This is roughly a +10 in time for each dungeon, and will build your skill level to push for something like KSM in the following season if you find out you're interested in going further.

If you want to do the "extra for experts", then sure you can watch a couple of 10 minute guides to the dungeons. The complaints about knowing routes and skips etc. are, as ever, massively overblown though, and you can clear up to and beyond +20 of every dungeon in time by pulling one pack at a time and just running straight through the dungeons - I know, because I've done it. If you just want the absolute M+ gear cap from vault and from valor upgrades, then clearing every dungeon on +15 is even easier. If you make your own groups you get to avoid the "link x or no invite" thing that doesn't really happen anyway but that everyone here complains about.

I get the anxiety thing. I get the fear of "what if I make a mistake and ruin it for 4 other people" thing. I just don't think the answer to that anxiety is making the game less enjoyable for everyone else, which is essentially what's being asked when people suggest that gear progression be removed from more difficult PvE content. The answer is to just take the first step and actually try engaging with the content. It's nowhere near as hard as anyone here makes it sound - I've seen people heal dungeons above +20 while clicking their spells and still do it in time. And, hell, if you can't shake the feeling that you missed the boat on this season and everyone else knows the dungeons better than you and you'll never make it, Dragonflight is just around the corner. Guilds are recruiting, there's always an influx of returning players who just want to see the content, and everyone is near-enough to a level playing field in terms of dungeon and encounter knowledge.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

no valor point type of currency to spend at a gear vendor and people that are doing m+ are pushing hard enough to make it feel like a job. Heroic is stupid easy to the point where I can talk all the way through with hardly any focus on the game and enjoy the idea that everybody is still getting something out of it. I am old enough to know that achieving something in this game has about as much value as punching your fist in a bucket of water, so I just want to have some social time with the guys I know that are interested in other things (like raiding).

I see they added valor points now...to little too late, and it is only for upgrading the gear you already have from mythic+...

The grind just doesn't feel worth it any more...

Yeah I mean...valor fixes most of these issues. Maybe the game just isn't for you anymore if you don't really want to pay much attention to it?

Which is completely fine! Sometimes feels like people aren't honest with themselves about what they want here tho

[Otimus]

Blizzard always understood the value of casual players, the problem is the definition of 'casual' changes each week, nowadays is 'give me free stuff because X,Y' reasons

I think people just want something they can meaningfully progress their character in in a way that doesn't require them putting together manual groups or having to "prove" that they should be "allowed" to play some parts of the game. This hasn't existed since the start of WoD, not really, anyways. This idea that people just want free stuff is nonsense. I mean, sure, they exist, I guess. But most people just want something they can just start up and have some fun with and progress their character with with some random strangers. We don't want the best loot. We just want some form of progress that's fun and meaningful that doesn't require either wrangling cats or being a wrangled cat, or to just slam your head against a wall, or to have to engage in a process to be "allowed" to do it. At least that's all I'd want. It's why I loved MoP, mediocre dungeon support aside. It seemed to allow moderately meaningful progress for your character for most every type of player, whereas now, it only really allows it for one or two types of players. At least that's why I've given up on the game. It felt like if I didn't want to do organized raiding, pug raiding, or Mythic+, there just wasn't anything to really do that was any fun anymore after a few days of being max level. Everything else that involved a queue seemed to get outmoded and worthless after a day or two. I sure as hell don't want free loot, and I sure don't want the best loot. I just want some fun

[Celement]

I think people just want something they can meaningfully progress their character in in a way that doesn't require them putting together manual groups or having to "prove" that they should be "allowed" to play some parts of the game. This hasn't existed since the start of WoD, not really, anyways. This idea that people just want free stuff is nonsense. I mean, sure, they exist, I guess. But most people just want something they can just start up and have some fun with and progress their character with with some random strangers. We don't want the best loot. We just want some form of progress that's fun and meaningful that doesn't require either wrangling cats or being a wrangled cat, or to just slam your head against a wall, or to have to engage in a process to be "allowed" to do it. At least that's all I'd want. It's why I loved MoP, mediocre dungeon support aside. It seemed to allow moderately meaningful progress for your character for most every type of player, whereas now, it only really allows it for one or two types of players. At least that's why I've given up on the game. It felt like if I didn't want to do organized raiding, pug raiding, or Mythic+, there just wasn't anything to really do that was any fun anymore after a few days of being max level. Everything else that involved a queue seemed to get outmoded and worthless after a day or two. I sure as hell don't want free loot, and I sure don't want the best loot. I just want some fun

You had heroic raid gear last patch and it was considered trash... just take the mask off its tiring.

You want loot cause you want to loot whore it up. It's weird that you keep trying to twist it. I wouldn't mind something like mage tower giving out a mythic weapon for completing it but the counter point to your plea is the same one it is always going to be.

You have to fit into the difficulty curve even in solo play. You actively fuck the game up for others with Korean grind loot as it creates a massive time barrier for new and returning players.

[kaelix1]

I think people just want something they can meaningfully progress their character in in a way that doesn't require them putting together manual groups or having to "prove" that they should be "allowed" to play some parts of the game. This hasn't existed since the start of WoD, not really, anyways. This idea that people just want free stuff is nonsense. I mean, sure, they exist, I guess. But most people just want something they can just start up and have some fun with and progress their character with with some random strangers. We don't want the best loot. We just want some form of progress that's fun and meaningful that doesn't require either wrangling cats or being a wrangled cat, or to just slam your head against a wall, or to have to engage in a process to be "allowed" to do it. At least that's all I'd want. It's why I loved MoP, mediocre dungeon support aside. It seemed to allow moderately meaningful progress for your character for most every type of player, whereas now, it only really allows it for one or two types of players. At least that's why I've given up on the game. It felt like if I didn't want to do organized raiding, pug raiding, or Mythic+, there just wasn't anything to really do that was any fun anymore after a few days of being max level. Everything else that involved a queue seemed to get outmoded and worthless after a day or two. I sure as hell don't want free loot, and I sure don't want the best loot. I just want some fun

What you complain exist since the start of the game, it was actually more brutal in vanilla, you are 3 or 4th that replay to me with a decently long post explaining their point of view and i still don't see it, i still have the same thought, you want free loot, you want the same thing top players have but you don't want to put the effort, i already said few page ago, you have 4 raiding difficulties, 3 dungeon difficulty and mythic+ which is pretty much a casual heaven, at this point i really don't see what blizzard can do except just give you free gear, then you will start and complain that its to easy

I already point out that i did it with my shaman, the gear progress and it was counter with nonsense, you can progress your character as casual, you just have to put some work, took me few days to gear up my shaman

[Otimus]

What you complain exist since the start of the game, it was actually more brutal in vanilla, you are 3 or 4th that replay to me with a decently long post explaining their point of view and i still don't see it, i still have the same thought, you want free loot, you want the same thing top players have but you don't want to put the effort, i already said few page ago, you have 4 raiding difficulties, 3 dungeon difficulty and mythic+ which is pretty much a casual heaven, at this point i really don't see what blizzard can do except just give you free gear, then you will start and complain that its to easy

I already point out that i did it with my shaman, the gear progress and it was counter with nonsense, you can progress your character as casual, you just have to put some work, took me few days to gear up my shaman

I don't want free shit. I just want to have fun and progress my character without forced manual grouping. I don't care if someone has 500 item levels over me and my gear looks like tattered rags if I get that. MoP had this, and I loved it. How you can take this as me wanting free shit is beyond me.

- - - Updated - - -

You had heroic raid gear last patch and it was considered trash... just take the mask off its tiring.

You want loot cause you want to loot whore it up. It's weird that you keep trying to twist it. I wouldn't mind something like mage tower giving out a mythic weapon for completing it but the counter point to your plea is the same one it is always going to be.

You have to fit into the difficulty curve even in solo play. You actively fuck the game up for others with Korean grind loot as it creates a massive time barrier for new and returning players.

To be fair, I quit Shadowlands pretty early because there wasn't anything fun for me to do. Didn't play BFA for long for the same reason. Stuck pretty long in Legion, though, because despite having the same core problems, it at least had fun content to do. WoD was a shit show. MoP was incredible. Again, I just liked MoP. That's what I want.


AGAIN, the core problem for me is that if you don't do manual grouping, there's fuck all to do. I don't need anything fancy. I just want fun content that's rewarding to do more than once.

I don't get the vitriol for me saying this. "Son of a bitch wants to have content he can queue for that's worth running for more than a couple of days? Fuck him, freeloader wants my gear!' Makes zero sense.

[Schwert]

They should just copy the tomestone system from FFXIV and let us buy heroic gear with it. A lot of casual players would probably leave FF and come back to WoW.

FF provides more than just ease of access to gearing for casual minded players. Don't think that alone would do it.

Crafting is a major one.
BFA had the quest chain ideas down at least, but the ilevel was pitiful, and so far in Dragonflight you need to actually do x or y difficulty to craft that piece, rendering the idea of it as it's own end game useless. (...they really just need to let raiders sell reagents to crafters and this problem is fixed.)

Also, the general notion that people just want free max level gear on a vendor they can just walk to and buy is stupid, and has never been the case, and is just hyperbole from people who place too much attachment over being "better" than people in a genre where nobody cares in other games because this is so annoying. There are multiple paths to gearing elsewhere, and it is not a big deal, and wasn't the few times WoW allowed it to happen. (If we discount people crying they're "forced" to craft or something, in which case, welcome to an RPG.)

[kaelix1]

I don't want free shit. I just want to have fun and progress my character without forced manual grouping. I don't care if someone has 500 item levels over me and my gear looks like tattered rags if I get that. MoP had this, and I loved it. How you can take this as me wanting free shit is beyond me.

MMO-massively multiplayer online game, just saying

[Otimus]

MMO-massively multiplayer online game, just saying

People in queues are still people. This attitude is so aggravating. First I get told what I'm saying isn't that I'm saying and put down for things I don't even want or believe. Then you jump to that.

[Celement]

I don't want free shit. I just want to have fun and progress my character without forced manual grouping. I don't care if someone has 500 item levels over me and my gear looks like tattered rags if I get that. MoP had this, and I loved it. How you can take this as me wanting free shit is beyond me.

- - - Updated - - -



To be fair, I quit Shadowlands pretty early because there wasn't anything fun for me to do. Didn't play BFA for long for the same reason. Stuck pretty long in Legion, though, because despite having the same core problems, it at least had fun content to do. WoD was a shit show. MoP was incredible. Again, I just liked MoP. That's what I want.


AGAIN, the core problem for me is that if you don't do manual grouping, there's fuck all to do. I don't need anything fancy. I just want fun content that's rewarding to do more than once.

I don't get the vitriol for me saying this. "Son of a bitch wants to have content he can queue for that's worth running for more than a couple of days? Fuck him, freeloader wants my gear!' Makes zero sense.

It's just you get tired of explaining why it can't be over and over again.

Even in this reply you glazed over it. I didn't play most of bfa to it had grindy time gated systems that you whimpered for then didn't want once you got them.

It's why trying to appeal to you is akin to appealing to the homeless for blizzard. It doesn't matter what they do you wont be satisfied.

[Otimus]

It's just you get tired of explaining why it can't be over and over again.

Even in this reply you glazed over it. I didn't play most of bfa to it had grindy time gated systems that you whimpered for then didn't want once you got them.

It's why trying to appeal to you is akin to appealing to the homeless for blizzard. It doesn't matter what they do you wont be satisfied.

I was satisfied with MoP.

[Celement]

I was satisfied with MoP.

I'm struggling to think of what changed unless you really enjoyed the farm?

Unless mythic dungeons somehow effect you?

[Tylanthia]

They should just copy the tomestone system from FFXIV and let us buy heroic gear with it. A lot of casual players would probably leave FF and come back to WoW.

FF14 stole that system from WoW's justice/valor.... ah forgot it.

[Otimus]

I'm struggling to think of what changed unless you really enjoyed the farm?

Unless mythic dungeons somehow effect you?

Mainly, LFR wasn't immediately worthless and offered something to work toward as a casual player and badge gear still existed.

When I last played, heroic dungeon gear become worthless in less than a week. LFR gear pretty much was worthless before LFR even unlocked. There just wasn't anything worthwhile to do if you didn't want to do mythic+ or real raiding.

Its not that I want easy gear or anything, I just want something I can work toward for more than a couple of days in content I can queue for. Hell, if anything, I'd like the amount of gear you can earn outside of those things to be slowed down SO they aren't outmoded so dang fast. That sort of content had waaaaaaaaay longer legs in MoP. (Well, dungeons didn't. That was the expansion's biggest flaw.). Hell, it doesn't even have to be gear. I'd take literally anything that made me feel like I was making any sort of meaningful progress instead of near instantly being knee-capped out of content. Really, a big problem is just exactly how much gear they vomit on you.

Though, I mean, maybe it's better now? I don't know. I gave up on Shadowlands pretty fast when it seemed to have as much and more problems as BFA.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Mainly, LFR wasn't immediately worthless and offered something to work toward as a casual player and badge gear still existed.

When I last played, heroic dungeon gear become worthless in less than a week. LFR gear pretty much was worthless before LFR even unlocked. There just wasn't anything worthwhile to do if you didn't want to do mythic+ or real raiding.

Its not that I want easy gear or anything, I just want something I can work toward for more than a couple of days in content I can queue for. Hell, if anything, I'd like the amount of gear you can earn outside of those things to be slowed down SO they aren't outmoded so dang fast. That sort of content had waaaaaaaaay longer legs in MoP. (Well, dungeons didn't. That was the expansion's biggest flaw.). Hell, it doesn't even have to be gear. I'd take literally anything that made me feel like I was making any sort of meaningful progress instead of near instantly being knee-capped out of content. Really, a big problem is just exactly how much gear they vomit on you.

Though, I mean, maybe it's better now? I don't know. I gave up on Shadowlands pretty fast when it seemed to have as much and more problems as BFA.

With this particular season being an experiment and kind of tacked-on, it's definitely different. LFR drops 265 loot now, which is far better than anything you can get solo (since they didn't update the solo grind gear from season 3). You can also get tier from LFR plus the new dinar currency after killing x bosses which lets you buy any normal mode raid item you want (can get 3 dinar total for the season).

So I would imagine the grind is actually better for the person who likes queue content this season in some ways thanks to the dinars.

Speaking of MoP though, Cata was the only time I quit the game for a big stretch (early cata - last patch in mop) and this definitely wasn't my experience lol. Other than LFR there was nothing worthwhile to do because the game was still raid or die with dungeons being totally useless. And WoD was more of the same but even worse bc LFR rewards were gutted