FFXIV Criticisms

[NineSpine]

Not sure how you think, "There's one level of content." Separates players better than "There's a broad spectrum of content you can select from and work into."

I have no idea what you are even talking about. The point is very simple:

FF14 has a set of content and goals for casual players and a set of content and goals for more hardcore players. Also, apart from the MSQ, very very very little content is contingent on doing some other kind of content. Almost all content is an island. This keeps casual players and hardcore players largely segregated, and it keeps players with different interests separated.

WoW blurs the lines between these things, creating this constant ramp that players are quickly pushed up and strong incentives to branch out into different kinds of content. This causes players of various play styles to get mashed together, especially casual and hardcore players.

This is not really a debatable point. These are brute facts I am presenting.

[Ghost of Cow]

I have no idea what you are even talking about. The point is very simple:

FF14 has a set of content and goals for casual players and a set of content and goals for more hardcore players. Also, apart from the MSQ, very very very little content is contingent on doing some other kind of content. Almost all content is an island. This keeps casual players and hardcore players largely segregated, and it keeps players with different interests separated.

WoW blurs the lines between these things, creating this constant ramp that players are quickly pushed up and strong incentives to branch out into different kinds of content. This causes players of various play styles to get mashed together, especially casual and hardcore players.

This is not really a debatable point. These are brute facts I am presenting.

They're not "facts", you're just giving one game a pass and condemning the other.

In XIV when players hit endgame, if they want to do anything at all past that point it's EX/Savage or nothing for the most part. I really won't count normal mode or alliance raids just like I wouldn't count LFR in WoW. So yes, EVERY type of player is funneled into the exact same content regardless of their skill or dedication level. How is that segregating them, other than to tell them to not bother with the content at all?

In WoW you have a gradual ramping of content you can take part in once you're max level. Want to do M+ but you're new at it? Great! Here's a +2 keystone for you to try out and learn in. Guild isn't hardcore? Great, here's normal/heroic mode raids for you to start with.

You keep saying they're "forced up the ramp" but what does that even mean? How is the ramp existing at all somehow worse than XIV's binary where everyone is shoved into the same thing immediately, and why don't you say that's also "forced"?

[NineSpine]

They're not "facts", you're just giving one game a pass and condemning the other.

This isn't a value judgement. This is just facts about the differences between the games.

In XIV when players hit endgame, if they want to do anything at all past that point it's EX/Savage or nothing for the most part. I really won't count normal mode or alliance raids just like I wouldn't count LFR in WoW. So yes, EVERY type of player is funneled into the exact same content regardless of their skill or dedication level. How is that segregating them, other than to tell them to not bother with the content at all?

I agree, if we disregard a lot of the content and pretend it doesn't exist, we can definitely come to different conclusions.

In WoW you have a gradual ramping of content you can take part in once your max level. Want to do M+ but you're new at it? Great! Here's a +2 keystone for you to try out and learn in. Guild isn't hardcore? Great, here's normal/heroic mode raids for you to start with.

Umm... cool? What does this have to do with anything I said? I didn't say wow's system was valueless or had no upside. I simply stated the impact it had on players insofar as segregating based on play style. Why are you being so weirdly defensive?

You keep saying they're "forced up the ramp" but what does that even mean? How is the ramp existing at all somehow worse than XIV's binary where everyone is shoved into the same thing immediately, and why don't you say that's also "forced"?

Because I'm not just going "lol alliance raids dont count" and living in some alternate reality. I'm dealing with the games that actually exist and how people actually play them. When you want to have that discussion, let me know.

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This is why these discussions get shut down. Because some people simply cannot accept the objective differences between the games and have to turn it into some pathetic pissing contest.

[Ghost of Cow]

This is why these discussions get shut down. Because some people simply cannot accept the objective differences between the games and have to turn it into some pathetic pissing contest.

Didn't take you long to revert to the usual attitude, I see.

Like I said to the others, this is why the discussions shut down, not because someone disagrees with you. It's because the handful of you that patrol here almost instantly resort to this weird "fite me lol" attitude about literally every topic. Like Arlette and the weird, "We need to defend Final Fantasy" stuff.

You think that the complete binary of XIV does a good job segregating players, I think the gradual ramping and options in WoW do a better job. It's not a religious war or something, you're free to just disagree and leave it at that.

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(Fair enough, mods. We'll behave.)

If there's one thing I think we can both agree on, it's that no game is perfect at this. Any multi-player game ends up with a lot of groups full of people with disparate goals and motivations, no matter how hard the game tries to filter them.

[NineSpine]

Didn't take you long to revert to the usual attitude, I see.

Like I said to the others, this is why the discussions shut down, not because someone disagrees with you. It's because the handful of you that patrol here almost instantly resort to this weird "fite me lol" attitude about literally every topic. Like Arlette and the weird, "We need to defend Final Fantasy" stuff.

You think that the complete binary of XIV does a good job segregating players, I think the gradual ramping and options in WoW do a better job. It's not a religious war or something, you're free to just disagree and leave it at that.

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(Fair enough, mods. We'll behave.)

If there's one thing I think we can both agree on, it's that no game is perfect at this. Any multi-player game ends up with a lot of groups full of people with disparate goals and motivations, no matter how hard the game tries to filter them.

There isn't a way for us to have a productive discussion if you literally encapsulate arguments in "Let's ignore X content because it doesn't fit my model".

You are confusing "segregating players" with "providing options for all levels of play". These aren't the same thing. FF14 is good at segregating players BECAUSE it doesn't try to provide a granular set of options for every niche level of play. Nothing I said has anything to do with which goal should be valued more. It had to do with the objective fact that FF14 more strongly segregates players into different activities. If you think that it is more important to provide a sliding gradient that pushes players into higher levels of play, that's wonderful for you, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was pointing out.

[Ghost of Cow]

You are confusing "segregating players" with "providing options for all levels of play".

I'm not confusing them at all, the point is that you can segregate players of different levels a lot better if you give them more options for content.

You won't separate players of different skills levels if you literally only have one basketball court in town. Then everyone from the kid that likes to brick the ball to the guys wanting to have serious games are there on the same court. But if there's a couple courts in the local park and some really nice place in the rec center and some locations in-between, you'll find players of similar interests gravitating together.

Your version of this is - in essence - to have just one court and hope that less serious players are just discouraged from playing at all. That's not a solution, it's just ignoring the issue altogether.

[NineSpine]

I'm not confusing them at all, the point is that you can segregate players of different levels a lot better if you give them more options for content.

You won't separate players of different skills levels if you literally only have one basketball court in town. Then everyone from the kid that likes to brick the ball to the guys wanting to have serious games are there on the same court. But if there's a couple courts in the local park and some really nice place in the rec center and some locations in-between, you'll find players of similar interests gravitating together.

Your version of this is - in essence - to have just one court and hope that less serious players are just discouraged from playing at all. That's not a solution, it's just ignoring the issue altogether.

Once again we are operating in this fan fiction where you just pretend the casual content in ff14 doesn’t exist, and so you don’t factor it into your argument. This entire discussion is about the relationship between casual content and hardcore content and you want to exclude casual content from the discussion like it is irrelevant. It’s completely non productive.

I can’t argue with you about non-reality. I’m interested in talking about the games that exist in the real world.

[Ghost of Cow]

Once again we are operating in this fan fiction where you just pretend the casual content in ff14 doesn’t exist, and so you don’t factor it into your argument. This entire discussion is about the relationship between casual content and hardcore content and you want to exclude casual content from the discussion like it is irrelevant. It’s completely non productive.

I can’t argue with you about non-reality. I’m interested in talking about the games that exist in the real world.

I never ignored the casual content, but we're not talking about that.

"Just go do your island because you're casual" isn't even part of this discussion, we're talking about segregation of players based on goals and disposition in endgame content. And it would be irrelevant anyway, since WoW has plenty of that content, too.

The question is, if Little Billy and Joe Hardcore both want to do satisfying endgame content without getting in each others way, which game lets that happen with the least friction?

In XIV they're shoved together constantly. Expert roulette every day, for one. And Little Billy has nowhere to really go but Extreme/Savage to progress beyond queued content.

In WoW, Little Billy will be doing content that Joe Hardcore is rarely even interested in. Normal/Heroic raids? Maybe some +10 mythic runs? There's so much for Billy to do that will never cause him to cross paths with Joe, and that reduces that friction significantly.

[NineSpine]

I never ignored the casual content, but we're not talking about that.

"Just go do your island because you're casual" isn't even part of this discussion, we're talking about segregation of players based on goals and disposition in endgame content. And it would be irrelevant anyway, since WoW has plenty of that content, too.

The question is, if Little Billy and Joe Hardcore both want to do satisfying endgame content without getting in each others way, which game lets that happen with the least friction?

In XIV they're shoved together constantly. Expert roulette every day, for one. And Little Billy has nowhere to really go but Extreme/Savage to progress beyond queued content.

In WoW, Little Billy will be doing content that Joe Hardcore is rarely even interested in. Normal/Heroic raids? Maybe some +10 mythic runs? There's so much for Billy to do that will never cause him to cross paths with Joe, and that reduces that friction significantly.

You are just running right past the point every time because you are so hung up on injecting your personal preferences and value judgements into everything. I don't care care what you consider "satisfying". If you could just drop the defensiveness for ten seconds maybe we could get somewhere.

The queued content in FF14 is the content for the casual player.
The organized content in F14 is the content for the hardcore players.

That is the delineation. It is clear, and it is simple.

+10 mythic runs are not casual content. This is exactly what I am talking about. There is no delineation. It's so muddy that you think a +10 is casual content, which is absurd. You think heroic raids are casual? What the hell are you talking about?

[Soikona]

It has, but raid sizes are also significantly smaller in XIV so more logs doesn't translate directly to more players.

Doesn’t a lot of FF14 players also not post logs? Not like wow, where it is nearly guaranteed to ask “anyone logging” and the answer 99/100 times being yes.

It also helps, no fear of ban.

[Moralgy]

Doesn’t a lot of FF14 players also not post logs? Not like wow, where it is nearly guaranteed to ask “anyone logging” and the answer 99/100 times being yes.

It also helps, no fear of ban.

Yea the majority of the playerbase do not post logs for even savages. About the only consistent section of the playerbase that will post logs are ultimate raiders. Due to the looked down upon nature of mods, it isnt anywhere near as common as wow where its near required to have mods to be accepted into raid groups.

[Granyala]

Yea the majority of the playerbase do not post logs for even savages. About the only consistent section of the playerbase that will post logs are ultimate raiders. Due to the looked down upon nature of mods, it isnt anywhere near as common as wow where its near required to have mods to be accepted into raid groups.

Pretty sure most savage groups actually log but aren't vocal about it ingame for obvious reasons.
Raidlogs, while often reduced to the E-Peen numbers, are way too valuable for organized raiding to pass on the diagnostic ability.

That being said: outside of ultimate or bleeding edge progression, DPS is usually a non issue in FF-XIV, if people do the dance correctly. Tome gear will make sure of that.

[Ghost of Cow]

Doesn’t a lot of FF14 players also not post logs? Not like wow, where it is nearly guaranteed to ask “anyone logging” and the answer 99/100 times being yes.

It also helps, no fear of ban.

I feel like we're getting into guesswork at that point, though. We can't really come up with a percentage of the population that's logging in either game.

It doesn't seem to be consistent with what we're seeing on the log sites, either. There are a ton of logs for things as apparently simple as Expert roulette runs, so I think it's safe to assume that a lot of people are out there logging.

[Moralgy]

Pretty sure most savage groups actually log but aren't vocal about it ingame for obvious reasons.
Raidlogs, while often reduced to the E-Peen numbers, are way too valuable for organized raiding to pass on the diagnostic ability.

That being said: outside of ultimate or bleeding edge progression, DPS is usually a non issue in FF-XIV, if people do the dance correctly. Tome gear will make sure of that.

Na like the vast majority PF clear savage, actual savage groups def log, but the PF crowd def rarely logs. If I pf clear something my stuff never gets uploaded for example.

[Granyala]

Na like the vast majority PF clear savage, actual savage groups def log, but the PF crowd def rarely logs. If I pf clear something my stuff never gets uploaded for example.

Well, we do need to keep in mind, that only a small percentage of the playerbase is "hardcore" enough to even bother with ACT/FF Logs.
After all, the hurdle is a little bit higher than installing Recount in WoW.

So I agree: most casuals won't even know that ACT exists, especially considering that talking about it in game is a big no-no.
That being said: my buddies have ACT running in virtually any content. They don't always upload the logs for trivial stuff though (like e.g.: expert) but they still look and talk about ACT's data in team speak.

Me? I'm just here to mend broken bones and bruises. :'D

[Wrecktangle]

I know there are a lot of anecdotes, but rarely (if ever) do I see someone bring the receipts of a situation where they were penalized for doing something mundane.

Not in game, but on forums (whole different animal, way worse than in game), I was given a 10 day ban for correcting another Posters comment that ACT is useless because all it shows is damage, not even things like res's or other data. I corrected them explaining where they can find that info in ACT, and I got a 10 day ban for that. I appealed and was told I was given the ban because I said the letters ACT. Nevermind the fact the OTHER POSTER said it, along with others, but I was the only one who got a temp ban.

There's a reason I use the word "push" and not "incentivize". Of course both games provide incentives to do harder content, but FF14 provides a very satisfying stop point at various levels of play. WoW is clearly designed to funnel players into that high end content by making not doing that content very unsatisfying, and in M+ making it so there are no real stop points and you are pushed to go higher and higher.

Yes, it's called bias. That's why you're using a negatively connotated word towards one game and not the other. Stop points? You can stop playing at any time in either game. You then go on about this concept about making content feel unsatisfying? No one is holding a gun to your head pushing you to do anything you don't want to do.

This is exactly right, and it is where FF14 shines. It sorts players extremely well. WoW is absolutely abysmal at this, and is constantly throwing players together who shouldn't be playing together.

I'm not sure you understood my point. I was VERY clear in detailing exactly how both games suffer from this issue.

You are just running right past the point every time because you are so hung up on injecting your personal preferences and value judgements into everything. I don't care care what you consider "satisfying". If you could just drop the defensiveness for ten seconds maybe we could get somewhere.

Insert Leo Dicaprio pointing gif.

The queued content in FF14 is the content for the casual player.
The organized content in F14 is the content for the hardcore players.

That is the delineation. It is clear, and it is simple.

Okay, agreed. I said this up above too. The exact same thing is true for WoW. Matched content (LFR, Dungeon finder, etc.) is for the casual player, and organized is for the hardcore players too.

Doesn’t a lot of FF14 players also not post logs? Not like wow, where it is nearly guaranteed to ask “anyone logging” and the answer 99/100 times being yes.

It also helps, no fear of ban.

The last 2 heroic raids I pugged in WoW no one logged. I was kinda tilted about it TBH cause I def had a 99-100 in there. IME in FF14 the vast majority of savage raids I've pugged over years were logged (lazy, wasn't me). Every once in a while a random kill didn't get logged because NO ONE logged, but generally at least 1 person did IME.

Yea the majority of the playerbase do not post logs for even savages. About the only consistent section of the playerbase that will post logs are ultimate raiders. Due to the looked down upon nature of mods, it isnt anywhere near as common as wow where its near required to have mods to be accepted into raid groups.

Yeah, that's not accurate IME. The overwhelming majority of savage pugs I've played in get logged (and not by me, I'm lazy af). I don't think I've EVER had a mod required to get accepted into a raid group.

Na like the vast majority PF clear savage, actual savage groups def log, but the PF crowd def rarely logs. If I pf clear something my stuff never gets uploaded for example.

YMMV, my kills were uploaded easily 90%+ of the time, maybe even 95%+. Pug savage raider.

[NineSpine]

Not in game, but on forums (whole different animal, way worse than in game), I was given a 10 day ban for correcting another Posters comment that ACT is useless because all it shows is damage, not even things like res's or other data. I corrected them explaining where they can find that info in ACT, and I got a 10 day ban for that. I appealed and was told I was given the ban because I said the letters ACT. Nevermind the fact the OTHER POSTER said it, along with others, but I was the only one who got a temp ban.

An anecdote that isn't even from in the game. You are proving my point.

Yes, it's called bias. That's why you're using a negatively connotated word towards one game and not the other. Stop points? You can stop playing at any time in either game. You then go on about this concept about making content feel unsatisfying? No one is holding a gun to your head pushing you to do anything you don't want to do.

If you want to have a conversation about reality, that's great, but this is silly nonsense to act like game design doesn't try to make people behave certain ways when that is literally the core of what game design is. I'm here to talk about the real world.

I'm not sure you understood my point. I was VERY clear in detailing exactly how both games suffer from this issue.

Sure, in the sense that everyone gets sick but some people have colds and some people have HIV. The extent to which this is an issue in FF14 is magnitudes less than in WoW. And that's perfectly fine if you personally value the upsides of WoW's system, but denying this reality just because you don't want to admit that there is any upside to FF14s design is absurd.

I'm not sitting here saying WoW's design in this regard is valueless. It has huge upsides that it is understandable to value more highly, such as providing a cleaner onramp to players who want to get into more serious difficulty levels. I'm not gonna act like you insulted my mommy if you say WoW's system has some upsides.

Insert Leo Dicaprio pointing gif.

I'm replying to a post where you whined that I was using biased language.

Okay, agreed. I said this up above too. The exact same thing is true for WoW. Matched content (LFR, Dungeon finder, etc.) is for the casual player, and organized is for the hardcore players too.

Dungeon finder stops dropping upgrades about five minutes after you hit max level. The design is clearly, obviously, painfully, in your face, giant font, red letters, screaming, yelling, pointing, flashing lights, telling you to go do M+ if you like dungeons. If you think that the design intent of Blizzard is that Mythic dungeons are only for hardcore players, I don't really know what to tell you. It's like denying a neon sign flashing in front of you exists.

LFR is one of the worst designed experiences Blizzard has ever put together. It's a tourist mode, made so players can quickly see the bosses. It's a too slow of a reward path, it doesn't require individuals to engage with mechanics, and it's just really bad all around. It's certainly a better example than dungeon finder, but when the content is as mind-numbingly poorly designed as LFR, it isn't making a very strong point for your case.

[Granyala]

LFR is one of the worst designed experiences Blizzard has ever put together. It's a tourist mode, made so players can quickly see the bosses. It's a too slow of a reward path, it doesn't require individuals to engage with mechanics, and it's just really bad all around. It's certainly a better example than dungeon finder, but when the content is as mind-numbingly poorly designed as LFR, it isn't making a very strong point for your case.

Isn't LFR basically the same as the normal mode raids/primals and 24man raids we have in XIV?

It's been a long time since I played WoW but LFR had mechanics that needed obeying as well.

[Auxis]

Isn't LFR basically the same as the normal mode raids/primals and 24man raids we have in XIV?

It's been a long time since I played WoW but LFR had mechanics that needed obeying as well.

Depends of whether Roulette version of Raids/Primals are weaker than the Normal versions.

LFR has mechanics that players are expected to follow, yes - way back when LFR first started, mechanics were pretty face-roll. But encounters have their own stats specific to LFR like how Normal, Heroic, and Mythic have their own stats.

[zealo]

Isn't LFR basically the same as the normal mode raids/primals and 24man raids we have in XIV?

It's been a long time since I played WoW but LFR had mechanics that needed obeying as well.

WoW doesn't really have an equivalent to the function of most 24 mans in XIV (ignoring exploration zone ones here because they have their own quirks further differentiating them), despite the surface similarity to LFR.

There is only a single difficulty mode for alliance raids in XIV, they're their own type of content and not specifically made to showcase a much easier version of that same instance but with automated matchmaking.