M+ Rewards in Season 1 of Dragonflight now scale to +20s

[loras]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/mythic-...-to-18s-329211

Additionally, end of dungeon rewards are capped at 402 (lowest Tier of Heroic gear) and moving forward vault rewards are only scaling to 418 which is right in between the lowest and a mid-tier Mythic boss.

Hope you guys like raiding. :-)

Ugh, how long has this schizophrenia persisted now? Att least since the original TBC if i recall correctly.
Just make dungeons actually equally rewarding and stop forcing people in that crap called raids.

Seriously people will go there on their own volition even if there is no power reward if the gameplay is fun and people are not forced into unwilling and unwieldy cooperation.

Ugh, it's good that i didn't preorder.

[Nymrohd]

Organized raiding has always been a niche activity that no more than about 10% of players participated in (and yes this includes normal mode /old flex, the only raiding mode more than 10% of the player base participates in is lfr). Raiding isn't dieing, it never was really alive.

I find it very unlikely that during the times of 10man raiding from LK to MoP (and especially in Cata and MoP) only 10% of players raided.

[Twdft]

I find it very unlikely that during the times of 10man raiding from LK to MoP (and especially in Cata and MoP) only 10% of players raided.

This isn't unlikely but the very reason LFR was introduced.

[jeezusisacasual]

I find it very unlikely that during the times of 10man raiding from LK to MoP (and especially in Cata and MoP) only 10% of players raided.

They had to boost participation in raiding to justify the budgets or so it was implied which brings my biggest complaint to raiding in general, the time allotment and dedication of strict time settings to progress. The game is better for everyone who is not a mythic raider if you have avenues outside of raiding to progress your toon and even now it does not diminish those since they will have an average higher item level. If they need everything to go their way and feel that much better then someone else is it really worth catering to that demographic? That shows you that its such a niche product that people will get worse gear and still be content without even engaging in it. The whole raiding is the only end game content at the seat of the table needs to die the fuck right off and only get the same resources as those who use it, let it compete on even footing with something vastly more popular and see how well it lands.

[Indigenously Abled]

Are valor points/upgrades not going to be a thing?

[Relapses]

Are valor points/upgrades not going to be a thing?

It's yet to be confirmed. I assume it will be as it was for most of SL and that was one of the big QoL improvements in S1 of this expansion.

[Indigenously Abled]

It's yet to be confirmed. I assume it will be as it was for most of SL and that was one of the big QoL improvements in S1 of this expansion.

Yeah I couldn't find anything definitive about the inclusion of valor. They'll probably cap it again for a period of time if it is coming back in a similar capacity.

[Koollan]

I don't want to have to raid heroic to find upgrades to do mythic+ particularly. This expansion honestly just seems like a downgrade from shadowlands if mythic+ is what you enjoy in the game. Raiding is a miserable and any expansion that tries hard to push it at the expense of mythic+, i'll just skip. It's really as simple as that

... You can gear for M+ by... doing M+. This is a satirical post, right? Please tell me it's satirical.

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Ugh, how long has this schizophrenia persisted now? Att least since the original TBC if i recall correctly.
Just make dungeons actually equally rewarding and stop forcing people in that crap called raids.

Seriously people will go there on their own volition even if there is no power reward if the gameplay is fun and people are not forced into unwilling and unwieldy cooperation.

Ugh, it's good that i didn't preorder.

402 is going to be more than enough to do M+ at 18s. That's why they scale it that way. It's literally scaled *towards* that.

[Netherblood]

The real problem they need to fix is difficulty of heroic. Heroic Anduin week 1 should never happen when a +15 drops basically same ilvl. +15s are complete faceroll. If they drop close to same ilvl as heroic, heroic should be easier so more people do it. Classic raiding is giga popular cause its super easy. Casuals don't really care about being challenged in raiding content, they just want social experience and easy epics, which is what classic gives. Mythic guilds don't really care about heroic being hard either, we have Mythic for the challenge and HoF title to chase.


Edit: Heroic gear also has weekly lockout M+ gear is infinite and can be upgraded with valor above heroic. Baseline M+ drops should never be above or same as heroic due to its infinite nature, if they put some weekly lockout on it then sure.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Edit: Heroic gear also has weekly lockout M+ gear is infinite and can be upgraded with valor above heroic. Baseline M+ drops should never be above or same as heroic due to its infinite nature, if they put some weekly lockout on it then sure.

Valor is the weekly lockout. 750 isn't even enough to upgrade one item; it's barely even relevant until a couple months have passed

[Relapses]

Valor is the weekly lockout. 750 isn't even enough to upgrade one item; it's barely even relevant until a couple months have passed

TBF, we don't know yet if there will be a VP cap in S1. I imagine there will be but they're also opening Normal, Heroic and Mythic on the same day and have already confirmed M+ rewards will not be capped for the first week so... who knows? I am fully expecting a Blue post elaborating on these data mined changes, though I don't think it'll do much to assuage the concerns many (myself included) have brought up in this thread.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

TBF, we don't know yet if there will be a VP cap in S1. I imagine there will be but they're also opening Normal, Heroic and Mythic on the same day and have already confirmed M+ rewards will not be capped for the first week so... who knows? I am fully expecting a Blue post elaborating on these data mined changes, though I don't think it'll do much to assuage the concerns many (myself included) have brought up in this thread.

Yeah I mean no valor cap (or even a much higher cap) would change everything. But historically so far, what I said is true!

[Opeth69]

... You can gear for M+ by... doing M+. This is a satirical post, right? Please tell me it's satirical.

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402 is going to be more than enough to do M+ at 18s. That's why they scale it that way. It's literally scaled *towards* that.

The problem isnt whether 402 is enough for a +18, it's that raiders will be stronger than m+ players in m+. They have 0.1% m+ titles which are an endpoint for a lot of m+ players to aim for, when you can get 10-20% more power gain from mythic raid gear vs m+ gear you are ruining that end point for a lot of m+ only players who have no chance to compete in the activity they specialize in. This doesnt happen in pvp or raiding so why should m+ players have to suffer to bolster the bias of mythic raiders?

[Koollan]

The problem isnt whether 402 is enough for a +18, it's that raiders will be stronger than m+ players in m+. They have 0.1% m+ titles which are an endpoint for a lot of m+ players to aim for, when you can get 10-20% more power gain from mythic raid gear vs m+ gear you are ruining that end point for a lot of m+ only players who have no chance to compete in the activity they specialize in. This doesnt happen in pvp or raiding so why should m+ players have to suffer to bolster the bias of mythic raiders?

I honestly still don't understand your point. Are you saying that M+ players should be able to get world first on every single achievement by spamming only M+? That's the only edge case I can really see being an issue - but those types of players are also the ones that would be getting as much gear as possible as fast as possible in the first place, whether it be from raiding or otherwise.

Point being, no, I have extreme doubts that M+ will suffer from Mythic raiders. Especially considering the fact that at no point in the past has this been the case, either. Pay mind that I more or less only do M+. If you do M+ and you know the mechanics, you could do +20s with 10, 20 less than the recommended ilvl. Truly speaking, it is not difficult to do all of the achievements in that way.

[Shaqthefat]

What? Did you even read the wowhead post?
"The maximum reward from the end of dungeon chest is 402 which is equivalent to the lowest tier of Heroic raid bosses"

How will that make gearing for mythic bosses and race to world first easier??? It doesn't.
You're thinking about the great vault, which is 1 item per week, 1 week after the race starts.

Not so absurd now is it? Maybe say sorry to the guy you quoted.

The end of dungeon rewards are currently 288 and heroic shriekwing currently drops 291. That means that the end of dungeon chest is going to better for gearing than it has ever been ON TOP of being able to upgrade it.

The weekly vault now gives an item level reward HIGHER than the initial bosses in mythic, meaning world first guild will have a slightly higher item level for progressing the mid tier bosses, which now also give a higher item level reward giving them an even bigger ilvl advantage for the end tier bosses.


It remains completely absurd and I won't apologize for being right.

[Relapses]

I honestly still don't understand your point. Are you saying that M+ players should be able to get world first on every single achievement by spamming only M+? That's the only edge case I can really see being an issue - but those types of players are also the ones that would be getting as much gear as possible as fast as possible in the first place, whether it be from raiding or otherwise.

Point being, no, I have extreme doubts that M+ will suffer from Mythic raiders. Especially considering the fact that at no point in the past has this been the case, either. Pay mind that I more or less only do M+. If you do M+ and you know the mechanics, you could do +20s with 10, 20 less than the recommended ilvl. Truly speaking, it is not difficult to do all of the achievements in that way.

You can absolutely do M+ at all levels well below the item level cap; I don't believe anybody is arguing otherwise. But being realistic if you have two applicants, one with an item level 6 or 7 higher than the other with the same exact score (ie, one who raids and one who doesn't)... I think it's not unreasonable to expect most people would pick the guy with the higher item level.

I think that's the main gripe I have with them moving M+ further away from raiding in terms of player power. It's fine for anybody who is currently raiding but for those of us who've engaged only with M+ for the last expansion or two it feels like Blizzard is indirectly telling us that we need to find a guild and raid to remain competitive. It puts M+ only players on even more of an uneven playing field with their raiding counterparts, something which they've been etching away at since S4 BfA where raiders and M+ers were about equal in power level.

[Koollan]

You can absolutely do M+ at all levels well below the item level cap; I don't believe anybody is arguing otherwise. But being realistic if you have two applicants, one with an item level 6 or 7 higher than the other with the same exact score (ie, one who raids and one who doesn't)... I think it's not unreasonable to expect most people would pick the guy with the higher item level.

I think that's the main gripe I have with them moving M+ further away from raiding in terms of player power. It's fine for anybody who is currently raiding but for those of us who've engaged only with M+ for the last expansion or two it feels like Blizzard is indirectly telling us that we need to find a guild and raid to remain competitive. It puts M+ only players on even more of an uneven playing field with their raiding counterparts, something which they've been etching away at since S4 BfA where raiders and M+ers were about equal in power level.

I personally still don't see the competition angle here - perhaps if you're trying to push 25s -30s? If you're at that level, I'd think that numbers attest to those players also raiding at a competitive level as well. I don't want to speak for everyone, obviously, but not a single soul I've spoken to that pushes super high keys only does M+.

On the applicants portion, ilvl elitism has always existed, and I personally believe that to be indicative of the community. It's always been that way. I simply just make my own groups to avoid ilvl discrimination, whether that be personal groups or group finder listings. That's a problem that won't go away no matter how you spin it. It's just something that WoW players love to point to and say, 'if number not this high, you die'.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I personally still don't see the competition angle here - perhaps if you're trying to push 25s -30s? If you're at that level, I'd think that numbers attest to those players also raiding at a competitive level as well. I don't want to speak for everyone, obviously, but not a single soul I've spoken to that pushes super high keys only does M+.

On the applicants portion, ilvl elitism has always existed, and I personally believe that to be indicative of the community. It's always been that way. I simply just make my own groups to avoid ilvl discrimination, whether that be personal groups or group finder listings. That's a problem that won't go away no matter how you spin it. It's just something that WoW players love to point to and say, 'if number not this high, you die'.

Most people who push anything also raid because that's the type of player/mentality that succeeds at such things.

But I think most players in the Big Three content areas mostly just want to feel rewarded for their time and not overly punished for doing something else. While I'm definitely against hard siloing of content, I think a little bit of specific loot that's better in X or Y goes a long way toward fixing that problem.

There's no excuse for the tier stuff, though. Everyone, group and solo players alike, should be able to get the main feature of a given season by the end of the first month, imo.

[loras]

... You can gear for M+ by... doing M+. This is a satirical post, right? Please tell me it's satirical.

- - - Updated - - -



402 is going to be more than enough to do M+ at 18s. That's why they scale it that way. It's literally scaled *towards* that.

If it existed in a void that would be a valid argument, but seeing how it is all about relative power to one another what you say is essentially bullshit, as those who do raid or at least dabble in it will be preferable.

Now if raid gear wouldn't work in dungeons like pvp gear doesn't scale to pve, then you'd have a point.

[Opeth69]

Most people who push anything also raid because that's the type of player/mentality that succeeds at such things.

But I think most players in the Big Three content areas mostly just want to feel rewarded for their time and not overly punished for doing something else. While I'm definitely against hard siloing of content, I think a little bit of specific loot that's better in X or Y goes a long way toward fixing that problem.

There's no excuse for the tier stuff, though. Everyone, group and solo players alike, should be able to get the main feature of a given season by the end of the first month, imo.

A lot of players I know who clear higher keys and raid would likely stop raiding if they could get the same gear from m+, the are essentially forced to raid mythic if they want any chance at being competitive in pushing m+ keys. The best gear for m+ should come from m+ anything else makes 0 sense from a design standpoint, they could so easily fix this using the existing pvp gear scaling system they already know works, just make m+ gear scale to higher i-lv when in m+, it would literally solve all these problems instantly without screwing raiders in any way