m+ tuning doesnt dissapoint

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Thundering not interrupted eating/drinking is nice but I wish they'd also make it restore 20% mana or something like almost every other seasonal. Pretty annoying needing to drink again so frequently

[Tech614]

I wonder how much the +40 dmg and health and no healing bump to compensate tossed out alot of the balance? Did they not think about the Tyrannical affix and the abilities used? did they not put this under the same scope as they do the raid testing? and if they did not the better question becomes why not?

The dungeons where tested for 3 weeks with that change active. It's not like they made that change right before the game launched with no beta testing. Healing was absolutely a joke before that change and idk what the game would look like now without it but it wouldn't be great even if it did leave to some overtuned things.

[jeezusisacasual]

Well the pattern for every season I can remember seems to be launching with overtuned content then steadily nerfing it. I don't know why. It's probably more palatable for players to go in that direction than the other, but sometimes they are so far off it makes it seem like they are kinda throwing darts. Like:

-Remember how much Necrotic Wake got nerfed throughout SL? Went from one of the hardest dungeons to the easiest
-Remember King's Rest in BFA? it got clobbered repeatedly seemingly every patch. Same with Shrine actually
-S4 had a balance patch like every week for a month lmao (which was actually great tbh - responsiveness is imo better than "getting it right" the first time since that's basically impossible

I recall needing the weapons to be used correctly to not even needing a Kyrian the following week. I did not think about the release window really screwing them with the Holiday and the like but again i do most of my work from home now ( thanks covid ) but that being said they have to go over the data collection like an accountant going over payrolls right?

BFA was such a shitshow for me i only played the final season so i cant comment to much on those dungeons. Another thing is we are not seeing targeted buffs / nerfs to classes either this feels like they release a product then put a skeleton team on it ( live ) move almost everyone to the next patch and thats that, it reeks of mismanagement from a professional standpoint. HSBC would have my teams ass if we operated like that.

[Argorwal]

Well the pattern for every season I can remember seems to be launching with overtuned content then steadily nerfing it. I don't know why. It's probably more palatable for players to go in that direction than the other, but sometimes they are so far off it makes it seem like they are kinda throwing darts. Like:

-Remember how much Necrotic Wake got nerfed throughout SL? Went from one of the hardest dungeons to the easiest
-Remember King's Rest in BFA? it got clobbered repeatedly seemingly every patch. Same with Shrine actually
-S4 had a balance patch like every week for a month lmao (which was actually great tbh - responsiveness is imo better than "getting it right" the first time since that's basically impossible

Think of it this way.

Even though I absolutely think it’s needed, how do you think players would react to them buffing SBG as part of a balance pass?

Nerfs are well received, buffs are not, even if both are an effort to bring balance.

[crusadernero]

The issue is if M+ rewards mythic raid gear or even higher ilvl than mythic raid gear. You are going to have mythic raider complain about since m+ can be run over and over and over and over again as much as a person like while mythic raid have a lockout per week. Not to mention is harder to get 20+ people together and everyone doing mechanics correctly. Then there is less loot since the loot have to be share with 20+ people vs m+ where there is only 5 people. Not to mention since m+ can be run as many times as a player like they can get more practice runs vs mythic raiding. Then you have WFR complain they now have to farm m+ for gear first.

maybe give hardcore m+ players mythic gear quality from 25+ keys? Or higher, I dont really know the tuning that high.

[jeezusisacasual]

The issue is if M+ rewards mythic raid gear or even higher ilvl than mythic raid gear. You are going to have mythic raider complain about since m+ can be run over and over and over and over again as much as a person like while mythic raid have a lockout per week. Not to mention is harder to get 20+ people together and everyone doing mechanics correctly. Then there is less loot since the loot have to be share with 20+ people vs m+ where there is only 5 people. Not to mention since m+ can be run as many times as a player like they can get more practice runs vs mythic raiding. Then you have WFR complain they now have to farm m+ for gear first.

Well since the number of raiders is dying with the increased rewards raid gets to begin with its not that raiding is the problem its the lack of pick up and play that is killing it. I cleared Heroic last night and got KSM last week which means to me i have beat the game unsubbed and now replaying the Castlevania series because people have learned that its not worth climbing those hills.

If they hamper mythic plus anymore i along with many others would just leave the game as it stands because the hurdles of being apart of a raiding guild are absolutely shit. Time requirements, spec requirements, the amount of prep required, the information you have to know etc where as i have went in blind in every single single of M+ and gotten KSM within 5 weeks of it starting. Sure its easier but we are past the era of giving a shit what better players do and comparing ourselves to them to begin with.

[Tech614]

The issue is if M+ rewards mythic raid gear or even higher ilvl than mythic raid gear. You are going to have mythic raider complain about since m+ can be run over and over and over and over again as much as a person like while mythic raid have a lockout per week. Not to mention is harder to get 20+ people together and everyone doing mechanics correctly. Then there is less loot since the loot have to be share with 20+ people vs m+ where there is only 5 people. Not to mention since m+ can be run as many times as a player like they can get more practice runs vs mythic raiding. Then you have WFR complain they now have to farm m+ for gear first.

I mean if it was 25s its a non issue no one is running 25s over and over. There is literally only 3 25s even completed and only 1 in time.

[brynhildrprot]

maybe give hardcore m+ players mythic gear quality from 25+ keys? Or higher, I dont really know the tuning that high.

Think of it like this.

Doing all +15s is like doing Normal Raszagath, Doing all +20s is like doing Heroic Raszagath. +25 is like Mythic Raszagath

After +20 M+ players dont have an equivalent form of progression.

Maybe nerf +20 loot and vault rewards and make them scale up to +25.

So +20 gives like 418ilvl loot in vault and 402 reward in chest then +22 gives 405 chest 421 vault +24 gives 408 chest, +25 gives 424 vault. And clearing all +25s gives you the ability to valor up to 421.

So there's like a really long term way of progressing as an M+ player, something you can push for a month or two.

[kenn9530]

maybe give hardcore m+ players mythic gear quality from 25+ keys? Or higher, I dont really know the tuning that high.

mythic raiding level gear should never be available from spammable dungeons regardless of key level, the current level you can get is way more than enough, if you want mythic raiding gear do the raids for it where it was intented to be earnt. If you have the best mythic plus gear then you have more than enough gear and can do mechanics to kill mythic raid bosses.

[munkeyinorbit]

Which really only reinforces the idea that the game is telling them they suck and isn't catering to them.

Except it is catering to them. There are near unlimited difficulties in M+. You have got the easiest level that caters to the worst players and then difficulties increase from there. Blizzard is not telling anyone they suck. That's players doing that. M+ is accessible to everyone and all skill levels. It is inclusive.

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It’s amazing. I think one of the major complaints from SL was that the raids were to hard and just mechanic heavy - I just watched the RWF where one of the casters detailed how Stone Legion Generals cause his guild to quit raiding - and in DF they’re saying, “Ok, now let’s make m+ harder to compensate!”

Like, they can’t even test the end bosses because they make them too hard for their internal raid team to do it in bis gear! It’s crazy.

But is m+ actually harder or are you more upset that they nerfed the rewards to be more inline with raiding? M+ still caters for everyone. If you are not good enough for max rewards you still have a difficulty that is designed just for you.

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I am already getting bored with this subject so I think this will be my last post here.

In my current mmo players can craft tier sets, to gold level, at the highest armor (and weapon) level. And they do not have to set foot in a dungeon or raid for any mats.

That’s right. A casual player can get the highest level armor, make them a tier set. And not do any dungeons or raids. They can stay overland 100% of the time.

Does this shock you?

Is it bis gear? It is not. Is it kinda close to best in slot? Debatable, and really for a casual player that is good enough.

I just checked the forums and no one seems to be complaining about gear rewards. Dungeon queues don’t seem to be empty and people are doing hard content without this whole “those people don’t deserve gear” nonsense.

And guess what? There is stuff for casuals to do that is not dungeon/raid dependent. Housing, world bosses, transmogs, questing for days… (it is also devoid of the stupid “my faction is better than your faction” nonsense as well, but that is another subject).

How can this be? How can an mmo not have toxic “us vs them” controversies? By lowering the difference between top and bottom gear, and allowing multiple ways of acquiring gear. They reward hard content without starving the “filthy casuals”.

There was a time when WoW was the only kid on the block, that casual players had to suffer through this nonsense.

But look at wow now, they put the ending of raids on their YouTube channel, weeks (months?) before casual players can experience it for themselves. If that is not “WoW hates casual players” evidence I don’t know what is.

Casual players! There are better mmos out there! Don’t be afraid to leave WoW.

This isn't a wow hates casual player problem. It's a wow hates bad player problem and if you feel attacked by wow then I guess wow is too hard for you. It sounds like you do feel attacked. Good for you for deciding to move on. All you need to do now is to quit the fan sites and you will have made a clean break.

[munkeyinorbit]

Excellent post. I could not have said it better. Except I would also add that "Especially if you used to be able to do the more difficult content, but they made it harder this time around so now they tell you you suck and go play with the kiddy toys."

Blizzard is not doing this, you are. Blizzard is catering to every skill level. You are the one saying "stop making me feel bad because I'm not good enough". Blizzard has even provided an avenue for people like you who are bad at the game to reach the top. Buy some runs. No one is stopping you from clearing the hardest content.

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If you're saying "that's just you, not many other people would feel that way", well, it's arguable.

But if you're saying "if people feel that way, they're just objectively wrong and should be ignored", then no, that's not a good argument.
Players have an inalienable right to feel however they like, and if enough of them do, then the effect of that on the success of a game design cannot just be waved away with a mantra of "git gud scrubs".

Nice movement of the goal posts. This is not an argument about people getting good. It's about blizzards apparent failure to cater to bads. This is not true. Blizzard has difficulties for all skill levels. If you're only good enough to do a 5 today then blizzard has provided a difficulty for you. It's a 5. Even if you don't improve at all you will get to know the dungeons better and you will get better gear and then you can do dungeons at a higher level. There's no "GIT GUD" needed because blizzard has already catered to your skill.

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more like 6-9 hours per week .

and even though 6-9 hours a week is not that big commitment on paper when its scheduled then its huge commitment if you are normaly functioning adoult

Having a problem with a schedule is not what a normally functioning adult has a problem with. A normally functioning adult knows how to commit to a schedule. It's called being an adult. Oh boo fucking hoo. You might have other commitments. Be an adult and manage your life. If more important things happen then you deal with them. If your life all of a sudden becomes hectic and random it's up to you to decide on how you manage your time. Saying things like "I have a life so I can't play wow at a schedules time" is just an excuse for you being a mess. The good news is us that blizzard caters to you too.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

One thing I don't think anyone has brought up is the insane power of consumables and enchants and stuff, many which are incredibly expensive. Like weapon enchants are $10 but super important lol.

Feels like some people haven't yet wrapped their head around how important it is to chug potions and stuff either.

[crusadernero]

mythic raiding level gear should never be available from spammable dungeons regardless of key level, the current level you can get is way more than enough, if you want mythic raiding gear do the raids for it where it was intented to be earnt. If you have the best mythic plus gear then you have more than enough gear and can do mechanics to kill mythic raid bosses.

Sure, I agree. Spammable dungeons are different to raids in that sense. Maybe have the highest m+ keys not spammable then?

[Caprias]

mythic raiding level gear should never be available from spammable dungeons regardless of key level, the current level you can get is way more than enough, if you want mythic raiding gear do the raids for it where it was intented to be earnt. If you have the best mythic plus gear then you have more than enough gear and can do mechanics to kill mythic raid bosses.

That's a dumb attitude.

Keys at a bleeding edge level are hard af and arguably need even better equipment than any mythic boss simply due to it scaling endlessly, I remember funny things like needing 20% avoidance on your gear for the first boss of HoV back in legion or the group aoe would simply kill you at 27+, there wasn't a single raidboss where you had to farm out that level of avoidance.

So why shouldn't people pushing those heights investing a good amount to practice m+ not have access to their BIS for their content? Also putting time in to CE raid shouldn't be the answer here.

[kamuimac]

Having a problem with a schedule is not what a normally functioning adult has a problem with. A normally functioning adult knows how to commit to a schedule. It's called being an adult. Oh boo fucking hoo. You might have other commitments. Be an adult and manage your life. If more important things happen then you deal with them. If your life all of a sudden becomes hectic and random it's up to you to decide on how you manage your time. Saying things like "I have a life so I can't play wow at a schedules time" is just an excuse for you being a mess. The good news is us that blizzard caters to you too.

lonely single adoult maybe so.

someone in relationship - ye thats just not happening

most people have much more important stuff irl to do then play games on schedule thats why nearly nobody is interested in raiding. its just to big commitment so its hard pass for like 95% of players unless its lfr .

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One thing I don't think anyone has brought up is the insane power of consumables and enchants and stuff, many which are incredibly expensive. Like weapon enchants are $10 but super important lol.

Feels like some people haven't yet wrapped their head around how important it is to chug potions and stuff either.

ye well ofc everyone is ignoring them . nobody sane will spend liek 30k on enchants . 500-1000 gold max and maybe people will start buying them .

make flasks and pots cost liek 10 gold then maybe people will use them .

for most people its just waste of gold. and you see effectsi n dungeons.

[Stickiler]

lonely single adoult maybe so.

someone in relationship - ye thats just not happening

most people have much more important stuff irl to do then play games on schedule thats why nearly nobody is interested in raiding. its just to big commitment so its hard pass for like 95% of players unless its lfr .

I mean, I'm happily married with a kid and I can still stick to a schedule, I just organised it with my wife, it's not hard /shrug

In fact, schedules fit me best, because we can organise around it. Random spats of playing are where I get the least progression, because no sooner have I launched off then I'm needed for xyz thing.

[Lordofbelbol]

I am already getting bored with this subject so I think this will be my last post here.

In my current mmo players can craft tier sets, to gold level, at the highest armor (and weapon) level. And they do not have to set foot in a dungeon or raid for any mats.

That’s right. A casual player can get the highest level armor, make them a tier set. And not do any dungeons or raids. They can stay overland 100% of the time.

Does this shock you?

Is it bis gear? It is not. Is it kinda close to best in slot? Debatable, and really for a casual player that is good enough.

I just checked the forums and no one seems to be complaining about gear rewards. Dungeon queues don’t seem to be empty and people are doing hard content without this whole “those people don’t deserve gear” nonsense.

And guess what? There is stuff for casuals to do that is not dungeon/raid dependent. Housing, world bosses, transmogs, questing for days… (it is also devoid of the stupid “my faction is better than your faction” nonsense as well, but that is another subject).

How can this be? How can an mmo not have toxic “us vs them” controversies? By lowering the difference between top and bottom gear, and allowing multiple ways of acquiring gear. They reward hard content without starving the “filthy casuals”.

There was a time when WoW was the only kid on the block, that casual players had to suffer through this nonsense.

But look at wow now, they put the ending of raids on their YouTube channel, weeks (months?) before casual players can experience it for themselves. If that is not “WoW hates casual players” evidence I don’t know what is.

Casual players! There are better mmos out there! Don’t be afraid to leave WoW.

That's right and Does this shock you
you are trying to hard to provoke this guy

no one cares about your current mmo man

[Ashana Darkmoon]

lonely single adoult maybe so.

someone in relationship - ye thats just not happening

most people have much more important stuff irl to do then play games on schedule thats why nearly nobody is interested in raiding. its just to big commitment so its hard pass for like 95% of players unless its lfr .

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ye well ofc everyone is ignoring them . nobody sane will spend liek 30k on enchants . 500-1000 gold max and maybe people will start buying them .

make flasks and pots cost liek 10 gold then maybe people will use them .

for most people its just waste of gold. and you see effectsi n dungeons.

Well the trouble is they aren't a waste of gold, they're kind of insane. I average like 2.5 million damage from a glacial vial as a healer lmao

Weapon and chance and potions are also a huge DPS increase.

It's always more true in the first season because of scaling but I think we're actually kind of close to ESO levels here

[Woobels]

One thing I don't think anyone has brought up is the insane power of consumables and enchants and stuff, many which are incredibly expensive. Like weapon enchants are $10 but super important lol.

Feels like some people haven't yet wrapped their head around how important it is to chug potions and stuff either.

They changed the drop rate/spawn rates on a lot of materials yesterday which changed prices a lot overnight, have a look. The enchants that were 100k before have already halved in price, potions have dropped by like 8 times the price. Much more accessible now.

[Ktperry]

Having a problem with a schedule is not what a normally functioning adult has a problem with. A normally functioning adult knows how to commit to a schedule. It's called being an adult. Oh boo fucking hoo. You might have other commitments. Be an adult and manage your life. If more important things happen then you deal with them. If your life all of a sudden becomes hectic and random it's up to you to decide on how you manage your time. Saying things like "I have a life so I can't play wow at a schedules time" is just an excuse for you being a mess. The good news is us that blizzard caters to you too.

Lol this is why I don't raid, since I have shifts up to 00:00 so I cannot commit to a raiding guild, so this is not something I can manage lol.