m+ tuning doesnt dissapoint

[sponge5307]

Because a premade group consisting of players in the top 1% skill bracket doing a key with full coordination and planning with the 2 roles that can be undergeared the most out of the 3 roles being at a lower ilvl just isn't representative. Show me this with Naowh doing it in a pug or with 3 of the DPS being sub 380 ilvl in a +20. I'm sure they could still do the latter but it's so unrepresentative it's pointless.

lol and even if he had the same group of people with the same ilvl on a guardian druid or a port pally or even a BrW. He would no have it pull it off. BDK maybe....... that's just to show tank balance is crap in general is right now. A tank with last expansion ilvl tanking a +20 for current content just show how OP port warrior is.

[Xath]

lol and even if he had the same group of people with the same ilvl on a guardian druid or a port pally or even a BrW. He would no have it pull it off. BDK maybe....... that's just to show tank balance is crap in general is right now. A tank with last expansion ilvl tanking a +20 for current content just show how OP port warrior is.

He is literally tanking 20s on a 390 brm to gear it up lol. The truth is the group he is playing with matters way more than the tank he is playing. When you have people kicking locking down every mob and have packs in 20s dying in seconds you can get away with lower ilvls.

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If there are lots of easy games, one shouldn't expect all the people who like easy games to be concentrated in just a few of them.

If there are relatively fewer harder games, then naturally the minority that plays them would be more concentrated in those relatively few games.

So, if you look at a single easy game, and single hard game, and compare the # of people playing each, that wouldn't reflect the relative popularity of easy vs. hard games as a whole.

It's not hard to understand this.

It's the complete absence of logic that I object to. There are plenty of souls style games but a harvest moon clone is much easier to make. Both of them still have games that are the current unquestioned best in their genre that the majority of people who play that genre will have played.

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The new mage tower doesn’t provide character power.

I never set foot into it and never will until it drops actual gear (aka never).

I care zero about cosmetics, I only started to go to the transmogrofier to hide the helm when they moved the option there.

If you just wanted a challenge the gear wouldn't matter

[Osmeric]

It's the complete absence of logic that I object to. There are plenty of souls style games but a harvest moon clone is much easier to make. Both of them still have games that are the current unquestioned best in their genre that the majority of people who play that genre will have played.

There's not a complete absence of logic. There's an absence of you being able to understand the rather simple argument. That's a "you" problem, not a "me" problem.

[Xath]

There's not a complete absence of logic. There's an absence of you being able to understand the rather simple argument. That's a "you" problem, not a "me" problem.

You don't have an argument lol

[chiddie]

He is literally tanking 20s on a 390 brm to gear it up lol. The truth is the group he is playing with matters way more than the tank he is playing. When you have people kicking locking down every mob and have packs in 20s dying in seconds you can get away with lower ilvls.

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It's the complete absence of logic that I object to. There are plenty of souls style games but a harvest moon clone is much easier to make. Both of them still have games that are the current unquestioned best in their genre that the majority of people who play that genre will have played.

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If you just wanted a challenge the gear wouldn't matter

Where did I say I wanted a challenge without any char power reward? WoW is not Dark Souls.

[Woobels]

lol and even if he had the same group of people with the same ilvl on a guardian druid or a port pally or even a BrW. He would no have it pull it off. BDK maybe....... that's just to show tank balance is crap in general is right now. A tank with last expansion ilvl tanking a +20 for current content just show how OP port warrior is.

I don't think tank balance matters at all, Naowh could tank 20s on an undergeared guardian druid and still do it because his group is 5000x more skilled than the average pug which is it's also a poor example of M+ being tuned correctly. Todays hotfixes are in the right direction again though.

[kamuimac]

There's also the issue of rio/ilvl not being very indicative of skill. If you get a group of +10 players together and they progress, learn dungeons, look at what better teams are doing, optimize routing and gear up together, they'll push way above what pugs are doing in just a few weeks, even in less gear.

Something as simple as just having a consistent group of people for interrupts and knowing what you're interrupting or when to CC goes a very long way. The pug/ilvl/rio meta results in a sea of 400-405 players who are struggling through 16s and 17s when they should be very easily timing 18s and going for 20s. So few people seem to want to have a community of people to play with and form fairly consistent groups, but it's what all the top players do. Instead, they just roll fotm classes and go for ilvl, because that's what gets you invites.

The zero to KSM thing growl did is a good example. If a new player wants to get into M+ and push high keys, or even just go for 20s, the only real way to do that seems to be working up the raiding ladder first and keying with guildmates. Or just overgearing the content to pug it.

thats only if you assume that you make a group of really good players.

reality of game is that most of people in guilds are .... bad ... very bad at m+ . unless you are in very hardcore mythic raiding guild you are lucky if you have even enough people for 1 set up team good enough for pushing.

that is also a reason why so many people are effectively forced to pug. because people in their guild are just not good enough for keys like +15-18 at this point in season

by end of season when everyone will be 415 + then sure ofc they will be ok for +15 . but now with 400 itlv ? yeah just ...no.

[BiggestNoob]

thats only if you assume that you make a group of really good players.

reality of game is that most of people in guilds are .... bad ... very bad at m+ . unless you are in very hardcore mythic raiding guild you are lucky if you have even enough people for 1 set up team good enough for pushing.

that is also a reason why so many people are effectively forced to pug. because people in their guild are just not good enough for keys like +15-18 at this point in season

by end of season when everyone will be 415 + then sure ofc they will be ok for +15 . but now with 400 itlv ? yeah just ...no.

My point is that M+ is a learned skill. It doesn't matter if someone isn't good at M+, what matters is whether they are interested in improving and willing to put in the effort to get better at it. If you find 5 of those people who can't do +15s right now, and they spend 4-5 hours a day playing for a few weeks improving at this, they're going to be timing 20s in under a month. Where do you think good M+ players come from? They just install the game, level to 70, and then just immediately slam world record keys like it's nothing? Even back in Legion when M+ was first released, virtually nobody was running 15s, but there were huge nerds who spent most of their time in M+ doing keys over 20, because they had figured out better routes, skips, and ways to survive 1-shots that were prevalent, because that was what they enjoyed doing, not because they were innately gifted at M+, and they had been running with the other 4 M+ nerds on their server for weeks improving at it.

I'm just pointing out that people put way too much emphasis on ilvl and rio. In the 2nd week of this season, at ~2100 rio pugs could easily do 16s in 390 gear. If you go pug right now, you won't get into 16s with 390 ilvl or 2100 rio. You find quite bad players in 16 pugs at 2300+ rio and 405 ilvl. Despite such a large increase in both of these metrics, the average player skill in +16 pugs has gone down, mainly because the average has moved, but these keys still get completed and often timed due to outgearing the content. Raider.io only measures what you have done, not your capability, and ilvl measures potential throughput and survivability but not skill. They both have fundamental flaws, even used in combination.

[Osmeric]

My point is that M+ is a learned skill.

I learned a lot from M+. Primarily, I learned WoW is no longer a game for me.

[Woobels]

Tried like ..11? NO 17 keys this week and all of them died on the final boss. Would run my own key but I haven't managed to roll NO and it's the one I need. Dungeon needs a huge nerf.

[potis]

I learned a lot from M+. Primarily, I learned WoW is no longer a game for me.

It never was. You just went with the flow of the gaming world.

WoW isnt for 99% of its player base but at least they dont post weird shit on here.

[BeerEelemental]

Tried like ..11? NO 17 keys this week and all of them died on the final boss. Would run my own key but I haven't managed to roll NO and it's the one I need. Dungeon needs a huge nerf.

How the f*ck do you survive 2nd and 3rd boss in Nokhud (meaning your healer is good enough for it), but have problems with the last boss? Last boss is literally the easiest boss in the place....

[potis]

How the f*ck do you survive 2nd and 3rd boss in Nokhud (meaning your healer is good enough for it), but have problems with the last boss? Last boss is literally the easiest boss in the place....

Bad management of adds, bad grouping up, in Tyrannical the intermission phase can hurt, dont forget in higher keys 3? of those mobs can line up and global someone easily, lazy players that didnt run from the charge, non-dispelling healer for P2 debuff and if tank wasnt ready/good enough it can hurt.

Generally what you take for default granted "You cant be that bad!" is exactly how the opposite of how you should be thinking when talking about M+.

[Azharok]

How the f*ck do you survive 2nd and 3rd boss in Nokhud (meaning your healer is good enough for it), but have problems with the last boss? Last boss is literally the easiest boss in the place....

Not that I disagree with the fact that clearing 2nd and 3rd should give you 4th boss, 1st boss is technically the easiest one in there, since he does nothing ...

Last boss requires some kick coordination or some hard CC. Aside from that he isn't that difficult, he is very punishing to fails though.

[klaps_05]

Yes but someone said you need 400ilvl gear for 15s

Ofc you dont, but just like that the silly prot warrior video, its BS. Both tank and paladin have like top 10 experience, the rest of the group isnt 340 and they are in the dungeon where there is practically no dmg except for 2nd boss. These videos are anything but representative when it comes to dungeon tuning.

[Engal]

Bird is buggy. One time, it just would not change phases. Another time, we had two phases at the same time. Buggiest expansion to date.

I really dont understand. Ppl say that m+ shouldnt get equivalent loot to raid but yet they expect ppl to have done some raid stuff and having tier set to even think about taking them in their group... those consideration shouldnt even apply.

[Tech614]

I really dont understand. Ppl say that m+ shouldnt get equivalent loot to raid but yet they expect ppl to have done some raid stuff and having tier set to even think about taking them in their group... those consideration shouldnt even apply.

You don't need to raid for tier, even without the catalyst. None of my alts raid, they all have a 2pc or more before catalyst opened. Tier is certainly easier while raiding, but it drops at a high enough rate from the vault, far higher than the actual dungeon items so it's really not a raid only thing and tbh blizzard should just open the catalyst sooner next season cause it's also not even a big deal or that rare with how often it appears in the great vault.

[Woobels]

Oh they did nerf the final boss on NO, thank the lord maybe I can actually pug that key now.

[Nite92]

My point is that M+ is a learned skill. It doesn't matter if someone isn't good at M+, what matters is whether they are interested in improving and willing to put in the effort to get better at it. If you find 5 of those people who can't do +15s right now, and they spend 4-5 hours a day playing for a few weeks improving at this, they're going to be timing 20s in under a month. Where do you think good M+ players come from? They just install the game, level to 70, and then just immediately slam world record keys like it's nothing? Even back in Legion when M+ was first released, virtually nobody was running 15s, but there were huge nerds who spent most of their time in M+ doing keys over 20, because they had figured out better routes, skips, and ways to survive 1-shots that were prevalent, because that was what they enjoyed doing, not because they were innately gifted at M+, and they had been running with the other 4 M+ nerds on their server for weeks improving at it.

I'm just pointing out that people put way too much emphasis on ilvl and rio. In the 2nd week of this season, at ~2100 rio pugs could easily do 16s in 390 gear. If you go pug right now, you won't get into 16s with 390 ilvl or 2100 rio. You find quite bad players in 16 pugs at 2300+ rio and 405 ilvl. Despite such a large increase in both of these metrics, the average player skill in +16 pugs has gone down, mainly because the average has moved, but these keys still get completed and often timed due to outgearing the content. Raider.io only measures what you have done, not your capability, and ilvl measures potential throughput and survivability but not skill. They both have fundamental flaws, even used in combination.

No, people don't put too much emphasis on r.io, you (and many others) just do not understand how it works. This not-understanding is actually what undermines r.ios usefulness.

Just because the meaning of 2100 r.io score is a function of time, does not make it meaningless

Of course, r.io and ilvl meanings move with time. 2100 in week 2 was decent, but if you invite a 2100 player now, they maybe knows boss mechanics, but almost certainly has no clue about trash mechanics. The misinformation i see people spreading when I do alt keys even in 16/17/18s right now. Blizzard really needs to improve their telegraphing of abilities. Especially if you are newer to m+, you really rely on color-coded nameplates and enemy cast bars to even filter out whats going on.

[Puupi]

How the f*ck do you survive 2nd and 3rd boss in Nokhud (meaning your healer is good enough for it), but have problems with the last boss? Last boss is literally the easiest boss in the place....

Static spear oneshots in high keys without defensives. If it targets the same guy two or three times a row it might cause a wipe.

This is getting hotfixed today.

Also the intermission is healing heavy and the tank damage is quite brutal throughout the encounter.