Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Verissaugh]

No that's a good thing. If you didn't get score without timing a key (aka the older system of KSM) then as soon as it becomes apparent that you aren't going to time a key, players bail.

Now, players can choose to stick around for a bit because going slightly over time still is a "positive" win. Not as good as timing but still ok-ish.




Anyone who solely relies on score isn't using the information well. At the minimum, I would factor in how many keys done in time for the bracket of dungeons we're doing.

2k score but only 3 dungeons done in time for +15s? Pass. 1.8k score but well over 30+ dungeons done in time for +15s? Better pick.

The r.io addon even goes as far as to let you know what the highest key a party member has completed for the specific dungeon you're about to run. The information is there if people use it properly.

I would say both yes and no on the first part. Its a good system if you just want rating for sure, but for ppl who use the rating of ppl to invite and not its a huge failure since it doesnt mean the key will complete. Just way too many ppl who have gotten 14-18s done but barely completing any. I personally (my opinion) feel its pretty bad that we as players needs to rely on raider.io (which not everyone have) to judge if a player can be more trusted or not.

And I understand what you mean with all the information. But you are trying to suggest majority understands it, while I dont do that. If you can understand all the info + got raider.io the current system of rating doesnt matter, but just feels rly weird seeing ppl with 2.2-2.4k rating and havent rly timed a 15 key or a few of them. Makes it alot less trustworthy. Sounds too much like "I'm good, trust me bro" kind of situation.

[Jester Joe]

It's pretty obvious you are referring to Zardas, and I think this could be used as a fantastic example of affinity bias by us both.

This whole thread has run it's course because of a fundamental disagreement between Zardas and others (including me) - of when it is acceptable to leave a run. Some ('elitist' you may call them) players say immediately if a mistake is made, some (myself included) players say if it's clear that the run will not be timed, some players say if it's clear that the run can not be completed with current player skill and others (Zardas included) say it is not acceptable to leave a run under any circumstances without unanimous agreement (as there are opportunities to teach and have team members practice the mechanics during the run). This naturally causes controversy, because we can see that 'when is it acceptable to leave a run' is subjective.

So where see you an underdog, lone poster, desperately fighting for their view that we should all be friends and help thy neighbour, against a sea of elitist meanies and bullies - I see it as a poster that has refused to settle for anything less than their opinion being accepted as fact by all, despite being in the minority on this thread. If this was in different context (e.g. Zardas had a view on something that didn't resonate with you), I have a feeling you'd start to find it annoying also (though I expect you'll say you wouldn't). It's looking like most of his post count has been gained from this thread alone.

There has been references to player skill, and while it can be relevant to how credible someones views are (e.g. I would not be credible to give advice to women on period pain) - I appreciate that we are all coming from different angles and talking about different things, which is why there is a divide. Where Zardas may place higher value on getting loot and unlocking vault slots, Zardas is also running relatively 'low level' mythics (<10). In higher level runs (15+), players may place higher value on completing the run in time and getting a good IO score.

Where Zardas may see an untimed run as a "not a big deal" (that's their words), for a player running the dungeon solely to increase their IO, an untimed run is absolutely a big deal.



This discussion has been artifically inflated by people pretending to hold views that they know aren't true. You're better than this. The use of the word 'encourage' is interesting and ties into the bias comment I made above. It isn't encouragement to tell people you'll punish them if they don't do something they don't want to. Encouragement could be giving them extra valor (as an example) if they haven't left a group first this week (not that I think any system to reduce leaving should be implemented - this whole thread is about a non-issue).

Your like, psychoanalysis of the situation is a bit strange.

I don't see anything about an underdog, just general confusion that again, people seem to think that experience is only gained through participating yourself, and if someone dares to mention that they're not at the same playing field, it's okay to mock them and disregard them instead of trying to understand better. And I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it has happened in this thread.

Like, didn't Zardas also say they watch high level mythics be completed? It might have been someone else, but it was mentioned at some point. And someone can learn all the dungeons, tricks, and tips by doing so. But they might not have the mechanical skill to also execute it. I don't think it's exactly fair to judge someone just by only what they participate in.

Also, I used the word encourage for a reason, as I explained to Relapses, I wasn't talking about the punishment at that point, but rather maybe an extra system that gives sometime like augment runes for completing untimed keys, since not even LFR seems to give augment runes

[callipygoustp]

If you read this thread, you might conclude it was happening in 24 out of 25 pugs.

You'd think so.

[Maximus605]

I joined a “+15 chill” HOV as a tank last night the timer was close but we weren’t gonna time it yet everyone chose to stay, on the Skovald encounter I being the tank grabbed the shield but after the first ragnarok went off I didn’t see it anywhere, I glanced over at raid frames and noticed the healer had picked it up, I thought okay maybe I wasn’t doing it the way he liked it and so I just let the fight proceed, needless to say we wiped and the whole group started firing on me, even the healer didn’t even admit to picking it up, I’ve never in my years of playing this or any other MMO felt so gas lit, I’m not a perfect tank, I always take criticism very well, and will 100% admit when I screw up, I was physically shaking with anger, but I didn’t resort to any name calling or anything, I simply left.. pugging keys is the most toxic environment in WOW I don’t think their should be a penalty for leaving, if you want to be in a group where no one leaves just stick to guild groups and such.

[bullseyed]

There should be a vote to end a dungeon run that is ongoing. If you leave the group without the rest of the group agreeing - you get deserter.

Should also be a build in DPS meter, if you're more than 5% below top DPS as a DPS, account suspension for a week for scamming free carries.

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This is common problem. Players ask for automating content, that is intended to be social, i.e. it should work according to "If you want better game - find friends, guild or static group. Not doing it - is your problem. If you want fully automated content with guaranteed success - play LFD.". M+ is social content and it should be socially regulated. I.e. players should communicate to agree about "rules".

There are agreed upon rules. Carries are paid with gold. If attempting to gain a free carry, the group is expected to disband.

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It's like you guys don't play mythic dungeons.

Just last night I joined a 15+ AA. Group was pretty solid, though there was a WW monk with 180k health (probably like 350ilvl or something) and WW a monk that was over 2.5k io and 407ilvl in the same guild. Obviously one monk was boosting the other - I generally have no issue with this.

As expected, the 'boosted' monk was dying left right and centre to everything. Unfortunately on the trash for the first boss, the 'boosting' monk gets one shot by seed detonation during trash... oops... no biggie, everyone makes mistakes.

We pull the first boss, going well, DPS looks good... then the 'boosting' monk gets hit and dies to Branch Out from the add spawning... luckily we kill the boss, albeit slowly as the tank and third DPS are solid.

We then go to the bird boss, pull it, boss is on 50% and we do enter the firestorm phase, fantastic... boom, both monks die to firestorm. We res up, go again, and same thing happens, both monks die to firestorm.

At this point I left the group. I mean first off, it's quite telling that a DPS can get over 2.5k IO without being able to avoid obvious AoE ground effects. If he wasn't trying to boost his friend, we probably would have timed the run with him dead for half the bosses.

I then, as is customary (and despite saying nothing the whole run), have the boosted monk whisper me "hope your family get aids and die".

It's almost laughable that people live in this Utopian world where if I had typed "By the way guys, you want to avoid the fire AoE" they'd expect the run to have magically transformed into a success and the 2.5k monk and his friend would have sung my praises "thanks bro, ahh we hadn't realised you need to avoid the fire, this is so much easier, you're a life saver to us and any future mythic runs we encounter!"

People boosting their friends isn't uncommon, I see it every single day.

Yet in this 'vote to quit system' that has been suggested - I would be held hostage in any of these runs that the booster turned out to also be awful.

Not that it's really all that relevant, or that Blizzard will ever look at it... because this isn't a problem that happens in the real world! People aren't just leaving out of spite.

This situation only exists in the minds of posters on MMOC and runs with Zardas (though I think it's pretty obvious to see why people would want to leave a run with him).

There should be a "report suspected purchased account" option for the situation you described, so someone can review and ban the 2500 score monk who didn't earn it.

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Did a ruby hell +10 last night. At second boss. Wiped twice. On second attempt we got down to 5% before everyone died. Would certainly have killed it. Healer decides to just leave, but not before saying "you all suck I cant bother". So there we were. 4 people sitting there in a failed run because someone couldnt bare a couple of wipes.

It sucks.

The run is already failed when you get to "a couple" wipes.

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Deserter isn't deterring people in pvp either, don't overestimate it.

You want people to finish a run? Ask for a better carrot, there's no large enough stick that you or they can wield.

If there was a built in damage meter, they should make it so 1 of the 2 pieces of loot is guaranteed to drop for the highest dps if the key is untimed. The other 50-50 between tank and healer.

That way the carried DPS never gets loot (unless traded) and they are decentivised from scamming people in keys.

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I also don’t get why players can’t have all the affixes, toned down, since start. The difficult things about affixes is that they add extra damage mechanics to the players, nothing more.

The problem is not the affixes number, it’s the extra damage they do.

Because most of them can't be toned down, and if you make something like spiteful tickle, it is going to teach bads that they stand there and face tank them, which will be worse on higher keys.

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It was miniscule mistakes combined with hefty grp dmg overall. Bit of unluck from where the add spawned each time, especially the first try.

Do the dungeon on M0 (or heroic/normal), as you don't know how the adds even work. Basic stuff.

[melodramocracy]

It's interesting to read the penalties being assigned to folks who leave solo shuffle:

"Players who leave excessively will be subject to account review and suspensions, as abandoning matches repeatedly is a violation of the terms of service via exploiting functionality to the detriment of the game environment and the intended player experience."

I'd wonder why this doesn't apply to M+ content.

[Twdft]

I'd wonder why this doesn't apply to M+ content.

As has been explained a dozen times in this thread: you do not get to pick your team mates in solo shuffle while you have full control over whom you run m+ with. Automated systems have automated penalties, manual systems don't.

[fwc577]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

While I agree, I also disagree.

There shouldn't be a penalty for ditching a group, like a 30 min deserter debuff that disallows you from joining a new M+

What there should be is a debuff on you with a stacking counter for 24 hours.

If you leave a group (or are kicked from a group after the timer starts), you should get a debuff that lasts 24 hours but does absolutely nothing. After 24 hours it disappears. If you leave or are kicked from another M+ group within that 24 hour period, the counter restarts and the stack goes to 2.

If I invite someone to my group and he's got 10 stacks, I'm not going to run with him.

Even if someone has 1 or 2 stacks and they come in and are like, yeah, I got the debuff because of trolls. I'd let them stay.

But if I invite someone from a certain realm and they're rocking a 20 stack, I'm going to find someone else because it's a toxic player that's going to leave after you don't do something they expect.

Actually had someone like this in HoV last weekend. He literally died FUCKING TWICE to Sanctify, but then when we engaged the Fenryr, the healer and ranged weren't paying attention and he swiped and killed the DH the third time, he flipped out and was like, this boss has two mechanics you guys are bad and dropped the group. Like dude, thanks for wasting like 30 minutes of all our time.

I suspect a player like that would either accumulate a large number of deserter stacks or he would be less likely to leave dungeons at the first sign of something he doesn't like (despite the fact he fucking died twice on a simple mechanic that resolved around him just leaving melee range for a few seconds.)

[Anzen]

It's interesting to read the penalties being assigned to folks who leave solo shuffle:

"Players who leave excessively will be subject to account review and suspensions, as abandoning matches repeatedly is a violation of the terms of service via exploiting functionality to the detriment of the game environment and the intended player experience."

I'd wonder why this doesn't apply to M+ content.

Because, as has been pointed out to death in this thread, M+ is premade content, not matchmade.

A fairer (but equally invalid) comparison would have been LFR (e.g. penalising people that leave wipefests).

[Azharok]

While I agree, I also disagree.

There shouldn't be a penalty for ditching a group, like a 30 min deserter debuff that disallows you from joining a new M+

What there should be is a debuff on you with a stacking counter for 24 hours.

If you leave a group (or are kicked from a group after the timer starts), you should get a debuff that lasts 24 hours but does absolutely nothing. After 24 hours it disappears. If you leave or are kicked from another M+ group within that 24 hour period, the counter restarts and the stack goes to 2.

If I invite someone to my group and he's got 10 stacks, I'm not going to run with him.

Even if someone has 1 or 2 stacks and they come in and are like, yeah, I got the debuff because of trolls. I'd let them stay.

But if I invite someone from a certain realm and they're rocking a 20 stack, I'm going to find someone else because it's a toxic player that's going to leave after you don't do something they expect.

Actually had someone like this in HoV last weekend. He literally died FUCKING TWICE to Sanctify, but then when we engaged the Fenryr, the healer and ranged weren't paying attention and he swiped and killed the DH the third time, he flipped out and was like, this boss has two mechanics you guys are bad and dropped the group. Like dude, thanks for wasting like 30 minutes of all our time.

I suspect a player like that would either accumulate a large number of deserter stacks or he would be less likely to leave dungeons at the first sign of something he doesn't like (despite the fact he fucking died twice on a simple mechanic that resolved around him just leaving melee range for a few seconds.)

This is the least dumb proposition in the whole thread so far imo. I don't know how it would be received though. Maybe, timing a key removes a stack ?

Problem is how do you work around the fact that sometimes you just have to "not finish" the key (like agreed upon in party). Who takes the hit ?

[Philff]

This is the least dumb proposition in the whole thread so far imo. I don't know how it would be received though. Maybe, timing a key removes a stack ?

Problem is how do you work around the fact that sometimes you just have to "not finish" the key (like agreed upon in party). Who takes the hit ?

Simple, you have a surrender option that works just like it does in league of legends.

[Azharok]

Simple, you have a surrender option that works just like it does in league of legends.

Still feel that could be abuse in some way.

[crusadernero]

Should also be a build in DPS meter, if you're more than 5% below top DPS as a DPS, account suspension for a week for scamming free carries.

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The run is already failed when you get to "a couple" wipes.

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Do the dungeon on M0 (or heroic/normal), as you don't know how the adds even work. Basic stuff.

You mean in the gamemode were 99% of the stuff mobs & bossed does means literally nothing and everything falls over? They could throw in 1 million abilities on bosses in that mode and most of it could be ignored cause the boss just dies. I remember the add during N/HC/M0 runs. It spawned, it was killed in seconds. Sometimes it was barely neeeded to interrupt once.

I'd say you actually start learning everything from key lvl 10 and up. Before that its a grind to get gear+score.

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You're right; you take an active choice whether it's an automated system or not. But I have expectations in a M+ (depending on the key level of course) that I cannot have and don't expect to have in an automated system. Some people might be bad in a m+, but I expect them to perform reasonably decently and do the basic stuff well (moving the boss during phases during the Hyrja fight for example) given the key level. That's why I won't ever blame someone for leaving a M+ run if things start going very poorly.

Of course. We have higher expectations when doing high m+ keys than doing LFR.

But then again, the way m+ is thightly tuned, it makes little room for any mistake whatsoever. I mean, we are humans here. Mistakes do happen, no matter the skill. Sometimes people do a fuckup. Now, if people fail the bascis again, again and again.. Then fine. Its probably not going to happen. But sometimes it does.

I have yet another great example of the joy in m+ pugging:

+13 Algeth'ar Academy Dungeon. Clear out trash before tree boss just fine. Start on boss. Wipe on 3%. Tank says toxic shit in chat, leaves. Key ruined. 3% wipe on first pull. We all stacked. We all focused adds. It was just slightly off. Instead of actually give it another decent try, tank just leaves. The treshold is SO SO low for people to leave.

[chiddie]

While I agree, I also disagree.

There shouldn't be a penalty for ditching a group, like a 30 min deserter debuff that disallows you from joining a new M+

What there should be is a debuff on you with a stacking counter for 24 hours.

If you leave a group (or are kicked from a group after the timer starts), you should get a debuff that lasts 24 hours but does absolutely nothing. After 24 hours it disappears. If you leave or are kicked from another M+ group within that 24 hour period, the counter restarts and the stack goes to 2.

If I invite someone to my group and he's got 10 stacks, I'm not going to run with him.

Even if someone has 1 or 2 stacks and they come in and are like, yeah, I got the debuff because of trolls. I'd let them stay.

But if I invite someone from a certain realm and they're rocking a 20 stack, I'm going to find someone else because it's a toxic player that's going to leave after you don't do something they expect.

Actually had someone like this in HoV last weekend. He literally died FUCKING TWICE to Sanctify, but then when we engaged the Fenryr, the healer and ranged weren't paying attention and he swiped and killed the DH the third time, he flipped out and was like, this boss has two mechanics you guys are bad and dropped the group. Like dude, thanks for wasting like 30 minutes of all our time.

I suspect a player like that would either accumulate a large number of deserter stacks or he would be less likely to leave dungeons at the first sign of something he doesn't like (despite the fact he fucking died twice on a simple mechanic that resolved around him just leaving melee range for a few seconds.)

This is a really cool idea that is worth digging.

No direct penalties but a “hunter’s mark” on you with stacks.

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You mean in the gamemode were 99% of the stuff mobs & bossed does means literally nothing and everything falls over? They could throw in 1 million abilities on bosses in that mode and most of it could be ignored cause the boss just dies. I remember the add during N/HC/M0 runs. It spawned, it was killed in seconds. Sometimes it was barely neeeded to interrupt once.

I'd say you actually start learning everything from key lvl 10 and up. Before that its a grind to get gear+score.

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Of course. We have higher expectations when doing high m+ keys than doing LFR.

But then again, the way m+ is thightly tuned, it makes little room for any mistake whatsoever. I mean, we are humans here. Mistakes do happen, no matter the skill. Sometimes people do a fuckup. Now, if people fail the bascis again, again and again.. Then fine. Its probably not going to happen. But sometimes it does.

I have yet another great example of the joy in m+ pugging:

+13 Algeth'ar Academy Dungeon. Clear out trash before tree boss just fine. Start on boss. Wipe on 3%. Tank says toxic shit in chat, leaves. Key ruined. 3% wipe on first pull. We all stacked. We all focused adds. It was just slightly off. Instead of actually give it another decent try, tank just leaves. The treshold is SO SO low for people to leave.

Until the timer is in place, in PUGs the threshold will always be low for a lot of people (please notice I’m not calling for the timer removal, but its effects on PUGs are undeniable).

[crusadernero]

This is a really cool idea that is worth digging.

No direct penalties but a “hunter’s mark” on you with stacks.

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Until the timer is in place, in PUGs the threshold will always be low for a lot of people (please notice I’m not calling for the timer removal, but its effects on PUGs are undeniable).

Sure, the timer sets the presedence. Over the years theres been difficult content in pve and after the introduction of m+ with timer I think alot more people now dont want to stick with the grp and overcome challenges. People want to go in, smack some mobs, parse well and have a clean clear. At the certain sniff of trouble(might not even be trouble), they leave. One 2% wipe? lol dont care bye.

The only aspect were progressing with your grp (be it guild or pug) is somewhat normal is in raiding. But even there, pugging is a cesspole of toxic shit.

[Ludek]

Sure, the timer sets the presedence. Over the years theres been difficult content in pve and after the introduction of m+ with timer I think alot more people now dont want to stick with the grp and overcome challenges. People want to go in, smack some mobs, parse well and have a clean clear. At the certain sniff of trouble(might not even be trouble), they leave. One 2% wipe? lol dont care bye.

The only aspect were progressing with your grp (be it guild or pug) is somewhat normal is in raiding. But even there, pugging is a cesspole of toxic shit.

This I think is because if you think about progression - only the key owner actually benefits from completing the dungeon in time. Sure you can get loot and rating, but only the leader gets better key afterwards. People in PUG-s are not incentivised enough to complete dead keys (and no, not getting deserter is not proper incentive).

This whole thread comes from some key owner who lost his key due to a leaver, the main problem is loosing the key, not people leaving.

[n0n3]

I think the best solution would be to see a ratio of the total number of keys started/keys completed, like a percentage. This way the leader that creates the grp can avoid those players if he wants.

[Kehego]

I think the best solution would be to see a ratio of the total number of keys started/keys completed, like a percentage. This way the leader that creates the grp can avoid those players if he wants.

or get 4 friends

[Anzen]

This I think is because if you think about progression - only the key owner actually benefits from completing the dungeon in time. Sure you can get loot and rating, but only the leader gets better key afterwards. People in PUG-s are not incentivised enough to complete dead keys (and no, not getting deserter is not proper incentive).

This whole thread comes from some key owner who lost his key due to a leaver, the main problem is loosing the key, not people leaving.

While that is part of it, it's not just that. Peoples priorities might be different depending on the key level they are running. Someone running a +5 is more likely to care about finishing the run (irrelevant of timing it) and getting loot, than someone running a +25 who wipes testing a large pull. For someone who is solely running a dungeon for IO score, it is entirely pointless for them to continue if it's clear the run will not be timed.

This is why there is a lot of stereotypes being thrown about. If you are a 'baddie' who manages to sneak his way into a high level key (and possibly be the reason the key will not be timed) - you would love for the key to be finished for that high ilvl loot, timing it is secondary. For someone that doesn't need gear from that dungeon, it doesn't make sense to boost the run for nothing. Especially if it's come to light that someone that might not necessarily know what they're doing has sneaked their way into the run.

I think the best solution would be to see a ratio of the total number of keys started/keys completed, like a percentage. This way the leader that creates the grp can avoid those players if he wants.

Part of me is beginning to think people are deliberately coming up with silly ideas.

So Cutting-edge-clark, who will often ditch high level keys the second anything goes wrong while practicing will have a high leave percentage.

And Keyboard-turner-Kevin, who has spent all his time spamming 5's (where you can wipe 10 times, 4 man the dungeon and still make time) is waddling around with a perfect score.

Could Cutting-edge-clark wanted to start pugging, could he just blast through a couple of +1s with the gang, pulling all the trash with the boss, to get his score up?

[fwc577]

This is the least dumb proposition in the whole thread so far imo. I don't know how it would be received though. Maybe, timing a key removes a stack ?

Problem is how do you work around the fact that sometimes you just have to "not finish" the key (like agreed upon in party). Who takes the hit ?

If they had something like this, I think there needs to be some sort of vote system to "cancel" a key. In addition, should someone take the hit and just leave, I think it should force a vote to continue the key and a simple majority of the remaining 4 players would all that need to vote to cancel the key be necessary to cancel the key.

I still think there would be rare instances where someone would get "screwed" and get a stack, but then again, it's a single stack. It goes away in 24 hours. It's not really that big of a detriment to the player as one stack isn't really that big of a deal. In addition, I'm sure there will be people who simple won't invite people with even 1 stack. That's their own decision and sure, it might screw over a person or two that way.

The biggest thing meant for this system is penalization that isn't too disruptive to gameplay in order to make a few people who are problems learn to behave.