They said they don't want mythic raider force to do mythic plus...

[Swnem]

Deterministic loot has it's downsides.

First, it's pretty much makes loot uninteresting. You're always going to go for the highest simming item first. Players will go to X site or Y discord, see the list of things they should buy in which order and be done.

Second, it also means that the design of the raid would have to incorporate players having XYZ items from said list by the time they reach certain bosses. So the tuning would expect players to have those items already. Don't have those items? You'll either need to play exceptionally well or basically be stuck until you have gained enough currency to get BiS item X before proceeding.


SL Season 4 should be treated as a special case exception. Basically it offered "recycled" content on a modified schedule so we weren't bored out of our minds with Season 3 stuff. Good for tackling the post-expansion lull that happens before the next expansion is ready.

Whether you can get it in a deterministic way or not does not change that you want it. It just makes the acquisition more frustrating. Imagine letting us have fun by acquiring it and using it.

The raids already release overtuned. It would make little difference except maybe make an extra round of nerfs unnecessary.

Yes, season 4 delivered fun. We really shouldn't expect that.

Result: Participation down by half. Seems to be working well!

[Makorus]

Whether you can get it in a deterministic way or not does not change that you want it. It just makes the acquisition more frustrating. Imagine letting us have fun by acquiring it and using it.

The raids already release overtuned. It would make little difference except maybe make an extra round of nerfs unnecessary.

Yes, season 4 delivered fun. We really shouldn't expect that.

Result: Participation down by half. Seems to be working well!

True. Shadowlands would have been a much better expansion if the only trinkets that existed were Elegy and Sigil

[Grimbold21]

Oh absolutely. I just would like to see it in more equal grounds i.e. there shouldn't be ilvl difference between best m+ and best raid loot. Someone who does both should absolutely have some advantage, but imo it should be faster gearing which is very much understandable and should always be the case - exclusive items are not great. I do understand that raiders have same crap to deal with for their trinkets/special items but imagine if there were like 5 items in m+ which were at higher ilvl than what raiders could ever get and some additional "super rare" items which were very powerful and even higher ilvl gap from what raid offers - that is frustrating.

By no means I advocate removal of those things from raids - I just believe pvp and m+ should have their own equivalents for them.

They had great system in S4 SL - could have expanded on that and it would have made raiders/m+ players happy on both sides (realistically someone would complain ofc - it's wow players we are talking about)

I'm not necessarily sure if I agree with leveling the playing field between the different types of content when it comes to loot. Perhaps I'm a bit more traditionalist in that, at least for PvE, I still think of Dungeons as the step before Raiding.

Yes, I'm aware this may corroborate your point, but we musn't also forget Player choice. It is our choice to go all out or not in the manner in which we gear our characters.

We have something in common in that I want the most suitable or best gear for my character, however we differ in that I'm content with accepting what is available to me as a result of only doing M+. No weapons with haste/mastery? So be it.

[Swnem]

True. Shadowlands would have been a much better expansion if the only trinkets that existed were Elegy and Sigil

I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but there really is no point for non-bis trinkets. They are a waste of resources and no one is happy to have them.

[cool_freezer]

So much text here....
It is about god damn time, that they expand ilvl system from pvp to all endgame content. Set ilvl to lile 389 whereever you are, including open world. As soon as you enter any given content gear aquired in that content gets an ilvl boost (30 ilvl for example). This solves three problems:
- People feeling or even being "forced" to do content they dont enjoy/like to get item x or better ilvl gear
- making aquire loot obsolete in raids at a specific point going forward
- Mobs in open world dying to damn fast at some point forward

Justmy2cents

[erifwodahs]

It's not that though.

At that point, Blizzard might as well make two trinkets for Casters/Physical/Tanks/Healers. And at that point, they might as well remove the trinket slot entirely because every single person will run the exact same trinkets.

Lol not a fucking chance - same spec runs same trinks? Yes. All tanks will wear same trinks? All dps? You what mate?
Also - might as well remove gear then? People wear the same stats for their spec all the time - does it matter if your head is from Raz/CoS or SBG if it's just haste mastery?

[klaps_05]

The thing is you dont need that m+ vault gear to clear the raid. But when a player is not good enough to do that, he usually ends up covered in m+ vault gear before clearing the raid.

[Johnjohn]

I loathe mythic plus. Always have always will. People keep going on about options and if you don't like it don't do it and let them enjoy. Problem is it encourages laziness at blizzard. I always hayed Diablo for the same reason. Blizzard gets to give you less content by putting you in an endless difficulty levels, and the hamsters just lap it up.

Multiple difficulty levels should not even exist in an mmorpg. It completely separates the player base. While the normal/heroic dynamic is annoying enough as is, mythic plus takes it to a whole new level.

The game was at its most popular without mythic plus as well, so acting like it's the wow savior is nonsense imo. If mythic plus did not exist, blizzard would be forced to spend their time and resources elsewhere to keep the game alive. The game today without mythic plus would have other options and I bet more content.

Either way will never sub again until this trash system Is dead and buried.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Healers wanted reservoir etc

You are being a little oversimplistic. There would still be more than 2 trinkets. Even now people don't use exactly the same ones.

[Alroxas]

Whether you can get it in a deterministic way or not does not change that you want it. It just makes the acquisition more frustrating. Imagine letting us have fun by acquiring it and using it.

But you're missing out on my points on pacing and difficulty. If the game says here, you can have BiS gear/weapons/trinkets on Day 1 (an exaggeration) then the "difficult" content would expect you to have those items already. Do you really want a game where you're beating your head against the wall because it's no longer a gear check but a skill check?

Gear drops are doled out so that overall progression of player power so that ideally, you never have to nerf a raid because gradually, the progression eventually overcomes the difficulty that the raid was original tuned for. AkA you out gear the instance to the point where you can play sub-optimal and still kill the bosses.

One of the issues of deterministic loot systems, is that it's ultimately boring. There's no variance in how player progression proceeds. You always get the highest simming throughput option first, then the next highest and so on.

Yes, season 4 delivered fun. We really shouldn't expect that.

Was it fun? I mean sure it was definitely provided a lot of player power but that kinda gets old too. And was any of the fated raids actually difficult?

If being OP is "fun", why not skip deterministic loot and just have Blizzard give the players all the BiS gear on Day 1 of expansion release? Would the player base actually want that?

Result: Participation down by half. Seems to be working well!

Source? And in what context?

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Was it fun? I mean sure it was definitely provided a lot of player power but that kinda gets old too.

The affix was great though. Insane haste by the end of the dungeon, no annoyances like getting stunned and killed by a dumb affix interacting with quaking and boss mechanics etc.

[Alroxas]

Blizzard gets to give you less content by putting you in an endless difficulty levels, and the hamsters just lap it up.

It's cost effective. Meaningful content takes a long time to create and players go through it quickly enough (or get it spoiled à la datamining).

Multiple difficulty levels should not even exist in an mmorpg.

Is there even a MMORPG that doesn't have multiple difficulty levels for end-game content? ESO has Master Dungeons and Trials. FFXIV has Savage Raids and Ultimate Raids. GW2 has Emboldened and Challenge mode for raids.

Either way will never sub again until this trash system Is dead and buried.

Somehow I don't think M+ is going away anytime soon for WoW.

[Makorus]

Lol not a fucking chance - same spec runs same trinks? Yes. All tanks will wear same trinks? All dps? You what mate?
Also - might as well remove gear then? People wear the same stats for their spec all the time - does it matter if your head is from Raz/CoS or SBG if it's just haste mastery?

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/best-d...on-4-raid-loot

Hardly the biggest variety ever LMAO.

And your gear argument doesn't make any sense. There are no two headpieces in Vault that both give the same stats.

[erifwodahs]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/best-d...on-4-raid-loot

Hardly the biggest variety ever LMAO.

And your gear argument doesn't make any sense. There are no two headpieces in Vault that both give the same stats.

How many functional trinkets do you think there were?
There are in m+ tho.

So what you want is for some people to be screwed with some ass trinkets and call it a good system? I wish you never to get a good trinket and have to stick to some crap with 0.3% of your dmg.

[Soon-TM]

Either way will never sub again until this trash system Is dead and buried.

I am tempted to say the same about raids. They

1) are a pain in the rear to join for casual players (anything above LFR, that is).

2) have been becoming increasingly more complex for the sake of complexity for some time now, which may be OK for mythic folks, but not so much for everyone else, I'd wager.

3) last but not least, they are MASSIVELY timegated. This wasn't as bad when drop rates were more generous, but now Blizz is so mortally afraid that people can "win" the game that they are being extremely stingy with drops.

Which ironically reinforces the OP's point - since progressing your toon(s) with raids only is quite slow (in average), you feel forced to get loot somewhere else, lest you are OK with being dead weight for your group.

I guess the purpose (kekw) is to boost "engagement" metrics, but it feels really lame when you aren't interested in M+ at all, but feel like you have to do them anyway, as is the case for the OP.

[jeezusisacasual]

But you're missing out on my points on pacing and difficulty. If the game says here, you can have BiS gear/weapons/trinkets on Day 1 (an exaggeration) then the "difficult" content would expect you to have those items already. Do you really want a game where you're beating your head against the wall because it's no longer a gear check but a skill check?

Gear drops are doled out so that overall progression of player power so that ideally, you never have to nerf a raid because gradually, the progression eventually overcomes the difficulty that the raid was original tuned for. AkA you out gear the instance to the point where you can play sub-optimal and still kill the bosses.

One of the issues of deterministic loot systems, is that it's ultimately boring. There's no variance in how player progression proceeds. You always get the highest simming throughput option first, then the next highest and so on.



Was it fun? I mean sure it was definitely provided a lot of player power but that kinda gets old too. And was any of the fated raids actually difficult?

If being OP is "fun", why not skip deterministic loot and just have Blizzard give the players all the BiS gear on Day 1 of expansion release? Would the player base actually want that?



Source? And in what context?

The problems with RNG gearing also creates the thought of why bother? Gear is just a means to an end and is replaceable every season anyhow which is why i myself do not chase or care for it plus those same avenues you listed earlier tell you BiS anyway so you already have that. Having a end date to content is not a bad thing honestly.

WoTLK had deterministic gearing to a degree and some sort of middle ground should be placed in the game to help with it.

[Swnem]

But you're missing out on my points on pacing and difficulty. If the game says here, you can have BiS gear/weapons/trinkets on Day 1 (an exaggeration) then the "difficult" content would expect you to have those items already. Do you really want a game where you're beating your head against the wall because it's no longer a gear check but a skill check?

Gear drops are doled out so that overall progression of player power so that ideally, you never have to nerf a raid because gradually, the progression eventually overcomes the difficulty that the raid was original tuned for. AkA you out gear the instance to the point where you can play sub-optimal and still kill the bosses.

One of the issues of deterministic loot systems, is that it's ultimately boring. There's no variance in how player progression proceeds. You always get the highest simming throughput option first, then the next highest and so on.



Was it fun? I mean sure it was definitely provided a lot of player power but that kinda gets old too. And was any of the fated raids actually difficult?

If being OP is "fun", why not skip deterministic loot and just have Blizzard give the players all the BiS gear on Day 1 of expansion release? Would the player base actually want that?



Source? And in what context?

The game already expects you to have it. Do you think world firsts are not using the best stuff immediately? That is why they do split runs with multiple characters.
The raids come out tuned for them, not us. We don't get the items until many weeks in, even with the dinars it took weeks. I don't think that is unreasonable. It's just allowing you to enjoy the content.

I disagree. I think deterministic reward systems are fun and rewarding. It feels great to have your effort rewarded rather than spin a roulette to know if you just completely wasted your time, which often is the case and it completely is the case with raid loot atm.

You are using exaggeration to get your point across. The "day 1" argument is a fallacy. It's not one day, it's weeks. But, there is certainty there. There is an end point and a reward waiting. That is fulfilling. Repeating the content and being met with no reward for many weeks if not months is in no way fun. Also, why should someone who joined in week 10 get the gear you are chasing since week 1? There is so much wrong with it.
If i want to gamble i can go to a casino.

The context is exactly that. The numbers show that raid participation is down by half from castle Nathria. The source is the API.
Raiding is dying. The fact that it's a huge time sink that is unrewarding is obviously why.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not that though.

At that point, Blizzard might as well make two trinkets for Casters/Physical/Tanks/Healers. And at that point, they might as well remove the trinket slot entirely because every single person will run the exact same trinkets.

Yeah, there are clearly BIS trinkets, but people will still use other trinkets, because they will not all have them. Yeah, I got the trinket from Raszageth, and it's not great, but it's still a trinket I will use and I might enjoy using. If the Dinars were a thing, that trinket might as well not exist because no spec would ever pick it.

Remove them then.

Trinkets are just on use to macro pair up with your CD's. You can get a generic trinket that increases your crit, main stat and damage during your CD, cause that is all they do.

The only reason people like trinkets is cause of that. The multiplicative effect. They give a huge damage increase. They are actually way over budget and just make your experience worse before you get them.
So, yeah, i think it would be better not to have them at all and put those resources somewhere else. They are literally wasted on non bis trinkets no one wants.
Imagine your game being so bad you must force your players to use crap trinkets to justify their existence.

[Alroxas]

We don't get the items until many weeks in, even with the dinars it took weeks. I don't think that is unreasonable. It's just allowing you to enjoy the content.

Hilarious. Did you not see the numerous threads stating that the Revival Catalyst took too long to get here. That it [revival catalyst] should have been made available weeks ago?

I disagree. I think deterministic reward systems are fun and rewarding. It feels great to have your effort rewarded rather than spin a roulette to know if you just completely wasted your time, which often is the case and it completely is the case with raid loot atm.

So it's fun and rewarding when you already know your BiS list and you're just grinding each day to the daily limit of said currency? Even with the dinars, progress towards earning dinars were capped so it's not like you could grind it completely out.

Additionally, are you also discounting the fact that there's rewards from your great vault each week? Even if you ran VotI and got zero loot, you mean to say that the GV didn't at the minimum provide you with 3 choices to pick from? Granted you might have better choices elsewhere, but to call your raiding effort "a completely wasted" time seems disingenuous.

[Soon-TM]

So, yeah, i think it would be better not to have them at all and put those resources somewhere else. They are literally wasted on non bis trinkets no one wants.
Imagine your game being so bad you must force your players to use crap trinkets to justify their existence.

I understand that they want to have a couple of highly sought after items in every tier, but they are WAY overplaying their hand when it comes to trinkets. Especially when loot in general is becoming more and more scarce for raiders... Sometimes I think that the game would collapse as a house of cards if it wasn't for M+, since PvP has generally been horribly balanced in WoW.

[Swnem]

Hilarious. Did you not see the numerous threads stating that the Revival Catalyst took too long to get here. That it [revival catalyst] should have been made available weeks ago?



So it's fun and rewarding when you already know your BiS list and you're just grinding each day to the daily limit of said currency? Even with the dinars, progress towards earning dinars were capped so it's not like you could grind it completely out.

Additionally, are you also discounting the fact that there's rewards from your great vault each week? Even if you ran VotI and got zero loot, you mean to say that the GV didn't at the minimum provide you with 3 choices to pick from? Granted you might have better choices elsewhere, but to call your raiding effort "a completely wasted" time seems disingenuous.

I really struggle to understand what goes in your head as you go on a tangent of what i said.
Yes, the catalyst was too late cause the raid loot system is terrible.
I am not sure what you are thinking of by weeks. I mean the way dinars worked was fine. I don't mean grinding some uncapped currency over and over without any lockouts or caps.

Yes, yes that is fun. Knowing i'm getting rewarded for my play time feels great and makes me happy to play.

GV rewards i get from mythic+. I don't care about it though. With deterministic loot it can go away. It's just yet another gambling roulette that is frustrating rather than rewarding. There is a reason why it's called the vault of disappointment.