Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

.The next WoW class is going to be exactly like the previous four; Based on a WoW hero(es), have established original abilities, share the theme of the expansion of their introduction, been available in a playable form, etc. That's simply how Blizzard implements classes.

But what stops them from doing this with bards after they did it with Chen and the dragons?

Bards have atleast 5 characters they could promote to”hero’s” with the 4 ETC band members and the dwarf in the highlands, If Chromie counted as a hero so should they.

They have ability’s through ETC in hots like like monks had Chen’s from WC3.

They could easily share a theme of unexplored lands if they just make it so there’s a bard college on a new land mass like say Avalone just like how monks came from the traveling isles which had no lore before mop.

And like the dragons they have a playable form in Hots.

[Teriz]

But what stops them from doing this with bards after they did it with Chen and the dragons?

Bards have atleast 5 characters they could promote to”hero’s” with the 4 ETC band members and the dwarf in the highlands, If Chromie counted as a hero so should they.

They have ability’s through ETC in hots like like monks had Chen’s from WC3.

Chromie had lore that affected the game world, there's several characters like her, and we had the Dragon Isles.

The ETC is nothing like the Dwarf in the highlands, and there's zero lore in regards to the ETC. We don't even know if he actually exists in proper canon.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Chromie had lore that affected the game world, there's several characters like her, and we had the Dragon Isles.

Chromie tasked other people to affect the game world she’s never been an active character like say wrathion or Alex, she never actually gets involved first hand before DF.

And the dragon isle was just a scrapped idea with an old god temple.

The ETC is nothing like the Dwarf in the highlands, and there's zero lore in regards to the ETC. We don't even know if he actually exists in proper canon.

The ETC do exist in the lore they are part of a children's week quest.

And ya there not like the dwarf but that is why a bard collage would be perfect to show that bards can learn different ways of doing things but they still have a common root Just like monks who have 4 different orders on pandaria all with there own teachings that correspond with the specs and was passed down to the monks of the wondering isle even if they didn’t know it.

[Teriz]

Chromie tasked other people to affect the game world she’s never been an active character like say wrathion or Alex, she never actually gets involved first hand before DF.

And the dragon isle was just a scrapped idea with an old god temple.

That's all rather irrelevant though. We know that Chromie exists in the game world and influences it. Whether directly or indirectly, she is a major influence on the game, and canon in general. While the Dragon Isles was a scrapped idea, it was a concept floating around that Blizzard themselves always acknowledged.

The ETC do exist in the lore they are part of a children's week quest.

Let me know when the ETC is joining us on an adventure, or participating in a raid.

And ya there not like the dwarf but that is why a bard collage would be perfect to show that bards can learn different ways of doing things but they still have a common root Justice monks who have 4 different orders on pandaria all with there own teachings that correspond with the specs and was passed down to the monks of the wondering isle even if they didn’t know it.

You mean the Dwarf that is a spoof/homage character of Blizzard's former sound designer? The ETC is also a spoof/homage characters to a garage band of Blizzard employees. I don't see that as a strong basis for a class. Especially when there's zero lore behind any of them.

[Triceron]

And yeah, Demon Hunters aren't from the Broken Isles, but they're there because of a demonic invasion, and they're demon hunters.

They're everywhere because the Demon Invasion was happening all over Azeroth.

Also, the Broken Isles questing was all about the Pillars of Creation. There was barely any actual demonic threat within the questing zones. You had the odd areas that were being corrupted or threatened, but otherwise Demon Hunters would have been facing the local threats like everyone else, fighting against Azshara's forces or the Drogbar or the Emerald Nightmare. Demon Hunters would have only been relevant to the Broken Shore and Tomb of Sargeras. So the Landmass wasn't really designed with them in mind at all. If anything, N'zoth had the biggest hand in Broken Isles' problems in Legion, since he is directly responsible for Azshara, the Emerald Nightmare and Deathwing's corruption.

You're free to believe that, however without a hero character to ground the concept in WoW lore, or a WoW expansion ever being centered around music, the chances of that happening is pretty close to zero. Not totally zero, but very, very close.

You're free to believe the chances are close to zero, but let's be clear that this is your belief and nothing else.

The truth is, the chance of it happening are unknown. We're talking about Schrodinger's Cat, and Blizzard has no intention of ever hinting at any new class. All we can do is speculate.

I'd say that considering Augmentation now exists, the chances of Blizzard further exploring a Support Class like a Bard would be far higher than 'zero'. Bard is now feasibly on the table. It was an outlier option until Augmentation exists, much like how a Dragon themed class was an outlier until we started hearing about Dragon Isles being mentioned back into the lore.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's all rather irrelevant though. We know that Chromie exists in the game world and influences it. Whether directly or indirectly, she is a major influence on the game, and canon in general. While the Dragon Isles was a scrapped idea, it was a concept floating around that Blizzard themselves always acknowledged.

every quest giver exist in the world and is an influence on it, if that’s all you need to be a hero then there are endless “hero’s” including bard ones they can pull on.

And blizzard has also always egknowledge the mist that hides islands like the dark moon fair so having one of those hidden land masses having a bard college that all bards have roots to would fit just as much.

Let me know when the ETC is joining us on an adventure, or participating in a raid.

not ETC but here the dwarf comes with us on an adventure and even has his own unique bard ability’s.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The...ctors_of_Hyjal

You mean the Dwarf that is a spoof/homage character of Blizzard's former sound designer? The ETC is also a spoof/homage characters to a garage band of Blizzard employees. I don't see that as a strong basis for a class. Especially when there's zero lore behind any of them.

and Chen was a joke character, being a spoof/joke isn’t relevant as long as we have monks.

The dwarf is also a oral historian, defender of hyjal, and great wedding thrower. Sure it’s not much but diving deeper into him and other bards in wow would again be exactly what they did with monks who started with just being brew masters from Chen and expanded into 4 different schools of thought and a couple combat organizations.

[Teriz]

every quest giver exist in the world and is an influence on it, if that’s all you need to be a hero then there are endless “hero’s” including bard ones they can pull on.

You're comparing Chromie, a character that helped adventurers navigate the timeways for the Bronze Dragonflight several times to a quest where a kid goes to see the ETC perform in Silvermoon. And that's literally the only quest you could come up with.

And blizzard has also always egknowledge the mist that hides islands like the dark moon fair so having one of those hidden land masses having a bard college that all bards have roots to would fit just as much.

Do you have any evidence of this Bard college existing at all?

not ETC but here the dwarf comes with us on an adventure and even has his own unique bard ability’s.

Again, a character based on WoW's former sound designer.

and Chen was a joke character, being a spoof/joke isn’t relevant as long as we have monks.

A "joke character" that helped save Orgrimmar alongside Rexxar and became a champion of the Horde in his first appearance.

The dwarf is also a oral historian, defender of hyjal, and great wedding thrower. Sure it’s not much but diving deeper into him and other bards in wow would again be exactly what they did with monks who started with just being brew masters from Chen and expanded into 4 different schools of thought and a couple combat organizations.

Again, on one hand you have a Pandaren Brewmaster who became a champion of the Horde in his first appearance, and on the other you have a random Bard who helped do something over a decade ago.

Do you see the difference?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're comparing Chromie, a character that helped adventurers navigate the timeways for the Bronze Dragonflight several times to a quest where a kid goes to see the ETC perform in Silvermoon. And that's literally the only quest you could come up with.

Nope never made such a comparison.

I’m comparing her to wrathion who first hand helped us fight N’zoth and Alex who did the same with deathwing multiple times.

Do you have any evidence of this Bard college existing at all?

we were talking about land masses not what was on them, the dragon isle had an old god temple, that was it every thing else they made up with DF and they didn’t even use the temple.

But on the topic of existing, there was no evidence Evokers existed with the only lore that came close saying deathwing failed to use all of the aspects powers, and there was never any evidence of the August celestials existing.

Any needed lore they could make with the expan just like they did with those classes.

Again, a character based on WoW's former sound designer.

again irrelevant Chen was an April fools joke and he got a class.

A "joke character" that helped save Orgrimmar alongside Rexxar and became a champion of the Horde in his first appearance.

and the dwarf saved the wild hammer clan in his first appearance a every one else was powerless without his music magic.

Again, on one hand you have a Pandaren Brewmaster who became a champion of the Horde in his first appearance, and on the other you have a random Bard who helped do something over a decade ago.

Do you see the difference?

on one hand you have a random brewmaster who helped do something over a decade ago, and on the other you have a dwarf bard who helped fight the twilight hammer saves the wild hammer clan from destruction and fought back the forces of the forelands.

Do you see the difference?

[Teriz]

Nope never made such a comparison.

I’m comparing her to wrathion who first hand helped us fight N’zoth and Alex who did the same with deathwing multiple times.

And the Evoker class is based on those characters as well.

we were talking about land masses not what was on them, the dragon isle had an old god temple, that was it every thing else they made up with DF and they didn’t even use the temple.

The point is that the Dragon Isles was always a possibility because we knew that Blizzard conceptualized it in early WoW. There has been no indication that Blizzard has ever conceptualized a Bard college, or even Bards as a character class. Heck, Bards didn't even exist in the TTRPG and EVERY standard fantasy class existed in the TTRPG.

But on the topic of existing, there was no evidence Evokers existed with the only lore that came close saying deathwing failed to use all of the aspects powers, and there was never any evidence of the August celestials existing.

Evokers are simply playable Chromatic dragons which is lore that has existed in WoW for years.

August Celestials are a secondary concept to the Monk class. The primary concept is the Pandaren Brewmaster.

Any needed lore they could make with the expan just like they did with those classes.

Again, both of those concepts had well established roots in WC lore. Blizzard didn't need to make them up from the bottom up.

Bards have none. Just a random NPC who is based on WoW's sound designer and a spoof character based on a Blizzard garage band.

Anyway, this is once again lurching into being too much about Bards, with posters like yourself ignoring the points made and choosing instead to engage in pointless circular arguing.

Back to the topic at hand.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And the Evoker class is based on those characters as well.

they are, but you have said continuously that they are also based off of Chromie who isn’t an actual hero (pre DF).

So by such standers pulling on other characters shouldn’t be a problem, hell the dwarf is more heroic then Chromie actually fighting along side you.

The point is that the Dragon Isles was always a possibility because we knew that Blizzard conceptualized it in early WoW.

and so have other land masses hidden in the mist and what secrets could be out there.

Just like the dragon isle they were just a vague idea from pre launch that could be fleshed out with what ever blizzard needs at the time for an expan.

Evokers are simply playable Chromatic dragons which is lore that has existed in WoW for years.

No the lore that existed in wow is that deathwing failed to Mix the power of all of the flights which is why Neth was obsessed with doing what his father failed at.

August Celestials are a secondary concept to the Monk class. The primary concept is the Pandaren Brewmaster.

No. monks come from the Celestials it was them who helped free the pandas from the Mogu and taught them how to be monks in the first place.

Brewmasters are almost irrelevant to the class with The specs actual teachings coming from the OX not the actual brew masters like chen and his uncle.

Again, both of those concepts had well established roots in WC lore. Blizzard didn't need to make them up from the bottom up.

Both classes didn’t have a lore basis for existing before there given expans and evokers were said not to exist at all before there’s.

Anyway, this is once again lurching into being too much about Bards, with posters like yourself ignoring the points made and choosing instead to engage in pointless circular arguing.

Back to the topic at hand.

none of your points are being ignored, you just don’t like the idea so you refuse to admit that by the standards you your self raise for the other classes bards would fit just as well.

[Ielenia]

Based on expansion leaks at the time....

There were no leaks. There were only random players' wishlists and fake leaks.

Well yes, since Demon Hunters were the first WoW class and Legion was the first expansion to use HotS assets.

Which exemplifies how your "Blizzard rules for class design" are nothing but your own personal list and not something Blizzard adheres to, if you have to amend your "rules" to fit what Blizzard does differently from it.

What a silly argument to make. I don't work for Blizzard, so clearly my concepts aren't going to be 100% in line with their actual releases.

But the point is that they should if your "rules" had any sort of truth to them.

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Again, a character based on WoW's former sound designer.

Which so far you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate why that matters in any way, shape or form.

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and the dwarf saved the wild hammer clan in his first appearance a every one else was powerless without his music magic.

His magic was powerful enough to overpower the magic of a minion of the old gods, mind you.

[Vaedan]

Actually, the monk had neither. Blizzard had to retroactively 'promote' Chen from a wandering brew maker into an actual monk and create from scratch lore that didn't exist about Pandaria. Literally, the only two bits of canon lore that existed about Pandaria before MoP was: "it exists" and "pandarens come from there". Nothing else.

Not to mention we do have groups right now in the game that could be 'retroactively promoted' to be bard groups, such as the Lorewalkers. 'Hero characters' is unnecessary because they could all be created alongside the class, and that is if Blizzard doesn't simply promote an existing character into being a bard, like Lorewalker Cho.

I am not in disagreement, but can you please elaborate on connection between Lorewalkers and Bards?

I always thought Lorewalkers are more like archivists, keepers of knowledge. I would understand if they are to be connected to Mages (who are often keepers of Lore themselves). How would you connect Lorewalkers and Bards?

I don't recall them using a music.

[Teriz]

There were no leaks. There were only random players' wishlists and fake leaks.

A fake leak that we were discussing at the time that stated there would be "Ghostbusting" Tinkers. I was merely providing a way that such a class could be possible.

Which exemplifies how your "Blizzard rules for class design" are nothing but your own personal list and not something Blizzard adheres to, if you have to amend your "rules" to fit what Blizzard does differently from it.

HotS is merely an expansion of WC3's hero system, even including abilities and heroes from WC3, so it didn't really deviate from the rules at all.

But the point is that they should if your "rules" had any sort of truth to them.

Unfortunately the rules don't give you the level of insight to perfectly predict the spec configuration or entire spell set of a future class. What it does give you is an idea of what the future classes in WoW are highly likely to be.

Which brings us back to Bards; there's a reason the Bard has no lore, no hero characters, and was found in the Rogue class hall.

Just like Dark Rangers were found in the Hunter's class hall and eventually became a Hunter customization option (like I always said it would); It's entirely by design.

[Ielenia]

I am not in disagreement, but can you please elaborate on connection between Lorewalkers and Bards?

I always thought Lorewalkers are more like archivists, keepers of knowledge. I would understand if they are to be connected to Mages (who are often keepers of Lore themselves). How would you connect Lorewalkers and Bards?

I don't recall them using a music.

Lorewalkers and bards are related because both deal with storytelling and searching for more stories. Lorewalkers travel the land, to learn more about the stories of the land, much like bards do.

As far as music, Lorewalker Cho brings it together as there is an event in Krasarang Wilds where he sings the Ballad of Liu Lang, which in itself is a song about how the first pandaren left Pandaria on a turtle to find out more about the world.

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A fake leak that we were discussing at the time that stated there would be "Ghostbusting" Tinkers. I was merely providing a way that such a class could be possible.

A fake leak is not a real leak. That's the point. It was just either a wishlist of a player's own wants, or a list they created with the intention of stirring up arguments.

HotS is merely an expansion of WC3's hero system, even including abilities and heroes from WC3, so it didn't really deviate from the rules at all.

It doesn't matter. No matter how you try to rationalize this, the fact remains that you always retroactively change your own personal "Blizzard rules" to include whatever new thing Blizzard does.

Which brings us back to Bards; there's a reason the Bard has no lore,

The concept does have lore. Ignoring it doesn't change the fact.

no hero characters,

Which doesn't matter because you admitted in other conversations that Blizzard could create new heroes for them, like they did for the evoker class.

[Teriz]

A fake leak is not a real leak. That's the point. It was just either a wishlist of a player's own wants, or a list they created with the intention of stirring up arguments.

And we were speculating on that leak at the time.

It doesn't matter. No matter how you try to rationalize this, the fact remains that you always retroactively change your own personal "Blizzard rules" to include whatever new thing Blizzard does.

I didn't retroactively change anything. After Legion, I said plainly that HotS was now part of the equation, since Blizzard began placing HotS abilities in WoW during that expansion.

The concept does have lore. Ignoring it doesn't change the fact.

A NPC (named for Blizzard's former sound designer) doing something back in Cataclysm isn't lore.

Which doesn't matter because you admitted in other conversations that Blizzard could create new heroes for them, like they did for the evoker class.

Except the heroes the Evokers are based on have been around for decades. We're still waiting for actual Bard heroes to appear and have them effect canon in any meaningful way.

[Ielenia]

A NPC (named for Blizzard's former sound designer) doing something back in Cataclysm isn't lore.

An NPC doing something at some point in the game's story is lore. I'm sorry, you don't get to dismiss canon lore as non-canon just because you don't agree with it.

Except the heroes the Evokers are based on have been around for decades.

Have they? Why don't you list me just two evokers that existed in the lore before Dragonflight, and were used in the creation of the class, please?

We're still waiting for actual Bard heroes to appear and have them effect canon in any meaningful way.

They'll be created when the playabe class is created. Just like Blizzard created Sarkareth and Emberthal.

[Teriz]

An NPC doing something at some point in the game's story is lore. I'm sorry, you don't get to dismiss canon lore as non-canon just because you don't agree with it.

And you honestly believe an appearance in a quest is evidence of a hero to base a class upon? Nonsense.

Where is Russell Brewar from? What's his history? How did he become a Bard? What was he up to before we encountered him in Cataclysm? What has he done since that one quest in Cataclysm?

If you can't answer those questions, you don't have a hero.

Have they? Why don't you list me just two evokers that existed in the lore before Dragonflight, and were used in the creation of the class, please?

Alexstraza and Onyxia. We know this because Evokers have several of their abilities and attributes. No different than Demon Hunters and Illidan.

They'll be created when the playabe class is created. Just like Blizzard created Sarkareth and Emberthal.

Those aren't the heroes the Evoker class is based on. That's like saying Demon Hunters were based on Kayn Sunfury.

[Ielenia]

And you honestly believe an appearance in a quest is evidence of a hero to base a class upon? Nonsense.

You never said anything about "basing a class off them". You merely asked for a bard character in the lore. Russell Brower is a bard character in the lore. Him being a "spoof/homage" to a Blizzard employee doesn't change that fact.

Where is Russell Brewar from? What's his history? How did he become a Bard? What was he up to before we encountered him in Cataclysm? What has he done since that one quest in Cataclysm?

We will likely learn most, if not all of that if the class is implemented and he is 'promoted' to be a bard hero. Simple as that.

If you can't answer those questions, you don't have a hero.

We don't need one.

Alexstraza and Onyxia.

Those are not evokers, and you know that. Try again.

We know this because Evokers have several of their abilities and attributes.

By that logic, warlocks were demon hunters because, up until Legion, they had several of Illidan's abilities and attributes.

[Teriz]

You never said anything about "basing a class off them". You merely asked for a bard character in the lore. Russell Brower is a bard character in the lore. Him being a "spoof/homage" to a Blizzard employee doesn't change that fact.

That’s what we’ve been talking about this entire time. Thank you for admitting there isn’t enough lore to base a class off of him.

We will likely learn most, if not all of that if the class is implemented and he is 'promoted' to be a bard hero. Simple as that.

Except we knew most of those answers for heroes before the classes appeared.

We don't need one.

Yet every other class had one.

Those are not evokers, and you know that. Try again.

Then why do they have the same abilities and attributes as Evokers?

By that logic, warlocks were demon hunters because, up until Legion, they had several of Illidan's abilities and attributes.

And they essentially were. Which is why those abilities were removed from the class.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And you honestly believe an appearance in a quest is evidence of a hero to base a class upon? Nonsense.

Where is Russell Brewar from? What's his history? How did he become a Bard? What was he up to before we encountered him in Cataclysm? What has he done since that one quest in Cataclysm?

If you can't answer those questions, you don't have a hero.

He's from the twilight highlands and is a member of the wild hammer clan, He's a oral historian for his Clan and keeps there clan story's alive through song, he became a bard the same way Chen became a monk, Before we met him he was fighting with the rest of his clan in the highlands, since his first appearance in the highlands he helped fight back the forces of Ragnaros at the molten front.

Boom he's a hero.