Why WoW and its player base fail!

[Duskfall]

Well you are right.But i am tired to see MMOs and not rpgs cause they are not rpgs,to be all gear and grind depended.Just cant stand it.Nor will do nothing about it.The arguments i spoke before were the reason to quit it.The saddest thing of all is that WoW is the best around for now.So its either Guild wars which is the only one not really gear depended ,better pvp but overall not as good as WoW and u have WAR that will go out in 5 months.
I shall say this again that i dont blame anyone that plays WoW its reasonable enough cause its the best around,i am just fed up with those who say that literarely WoW is perfect.


Untill will people winne and pay ... why to change anythink .. it's simple.Well you are the most right on this one thats why make this matter most outragious.Cause most ppl whine and pay while they should stop paying until they see some improvement.

I hope WAR wont be a bubble :

[Pyrostemplar]

Ok, on to my bullet point style of post...

1) Dusk - While wow can be more expensive than most other MMO (I'll take your word for it), imo the expense is not significant. Actually the opportunity cost (Time consumed) of playing is far greater than the personally rather irrelevant monthly fee. Some people may not agree, but really the cost only becomes significant if you have more than one account (households, ...).

2) Taking that into account, whether WoW is worth it or not is a personal option. I've quit playing for several reasons - mostly due to a perceived loss of game quality and therefore enoyment, although I'll probably be back to try the expansion - Pink DK Gnomette here I go!

3) Regardless of the above, you shouldn't care less whether Blizzard makes 1 million or 1 billion - at least not directly. How they use the money - for fat corporate bonuses or hiring more artists - is their and their shareholders problem. As a client you evaluate the quality (or lack of it) of the product you are buying. Yes you can naturally bitch about it - "with all those billions how the hell Orc shoulders are not of the proper size!!!!??!!" - but it is not your call to make. Likewise, you could be worried if they weren't making money and you loved the game.

4) A side note to resources - as any software project manager will tell you, increasing the resources (e.g. more programmers) from a certain point does not correlate with faster or better product deliver - sometimes just the opposite. This is a pratical application of an old economic law of diminishing returns until you get negative returns. And, btw, only Blizz knows how many physical servers they have - we live on a virtualized world, and servers are separated by functions, not sections. This means that you can have a database server (or a cluster) that deals with X realms characters, another cluster with full battlegroups and so forth. It is not by accident that usually the same realms go down at the same time - as they depend upon the same server(s).

5) Equipment and - to a point - grinding are part of RPGs (and grinding more so of MMORPGs - pacing mechanisms really). As I've referred before, the underlying philosophy of a RPG is hardly conductive to good PVP. That is why GW is a good PVP game - it cuts on the margin of RPG progression - limiting the gear to basically bragging rights with no impact on performance. (note: this considers action based PVP).

6) TBC - while I appreciate the effort Blizzard made to create TBC - plenty of new, interesting stuff, on my book it was a failure because it failed in the basics of the game - where it shouldn't. That is why we are seeing two major rebalancing patches 2.1 and 2.3, addressing issues concerning classes that were reported on TBC Beta. Still the raiding ladder, although better, is quite worse than in WoW. Hopefully they learned from it, although Blizzard attitude of "Working as intended - we know better no matter what" does not bore well.

[frozenkex]

If you dont like it , it doesnt mean that its a bad game, that they need to change anything. Blizzard will know better what they will have to do, and so far mostly they have only improved the game. Everyone has their preferences and enjoys the game in their own way. What you hate , i might like, what you would like there to be i might not like, it doesnt mean i have no life or something like that. But besides that alot of things you dont know about , and you might not have learned all of the aspects in the game that you can enjoy, and youre just posting crap which is not true. I see many people here beeing really ignorant and dont know what theyre talking about while trying to sound smart and making those "wise" arguments on how Blizzard aint good or WoW aint good. :/

[Tiens]

Just a short FYI, WoW is not the most expensive MMO to play (subscription wise)

[Duskfall]

Overall its the most expensive subscription is only one part.Blizzard improves the game to the point gamers want it not otherwise.And if it is otherwise it shouldnt be.

[Nuke]

lol. I love them for that. Warhammer will be a great game anyway.

They basicaly took WoW, removed all the bullshit and this gave Warhammer!

Yea,thats what this game stands for. They are trying to make game based on fixing what is assumed to be broken in World of Warcraft and present this in their game. Almost every aspect,to just say,"Hey,this was shit in WoW,it will be so awesome in WoH". So far,in beta,it has been only proven wrong. All of their revolutionary changes are failing.

and he wants to make it better

Because making point of "I am so going to buy WHO because WoW failed" is such a huge help and it is directly improving the game.

WAR is going to steal many Blizzard's customers this is worldwide known.Thats why they are going to release the expansion the same almost period the WAR will published.

Yes,so far,its bunch of haters who proclaim death of World of Warcraft and triumph of WHO,based on..nothing.

[Wildhorn]

Yea,thats what this game stands for. They are trying to make game based on fixing what is assumed to be broken in World of Warcraft and present this in their game. Almost every aspect,to just say,"Hey,this was shit in WoW,it will be so awesome in WoH". So far,in beta,it has been only proven wrong. All of their revolutionary changes are failing.

And you have proof of that? or you just pulled it off your ass?

[Nuke]

And you have proof of that? or you just pulled it off your ass?

Lets see,i have one friend which is directly involved into beta.
I have an access to closed online community where many beta testers share their information about.


Update:
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...tml#post859399

Thats just one good written example which has been on public forums for some time.

[Shadowclaimer]

WoW Stole its quest system from Dungeon Siege, they both used Golden Excalamation marks to symbolize a quest, and golden question marks to symbolize you can turn it in, silver to mean your not done.

They also stole their levelup system from a little known tabletop game called DND, they also stole their class system too.

See what I did there?

[Wildhorn]

WoW Stole its quest system from Dungeon Siege, they both used Golden Excalamation marks to symbolize a quest, and golden question marks to symbolize you can turn it in, silver to mean your not done.

They also stole their levelup system from a little known tabletop game called DND, they also stole their class system too.

See what I did there?

And guess what? Whole warcraft thing is stolen from Warhammer. Blizzard wanted to to coop or buy warhammer to make their original warcraft, but warhammer said NO. Blizzard got pissed off and made something very similar.

Update:
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...tml#post859399

Thats just one good written example which has been on public forums for some time.

Replace WAR by WoW and you could not tell the difference lol

[IceBox]

@Nuke
That post pretty much describes the actual state of WAR quite good.
As stated before I play the beta myself but the NDA is bigger than me so I can't tell you more, just read that post.

It's a bit shitty atm but there's still hope (at least I hope so)

[Nyanmaru]

WoW Stole its quest system from Dungeon Siege, they both used Golden Excalamation marks to symbolize a quest, and golden question marks to symbolize you can turn it in, silver to mean your not done.

They also stole their levelup system from a little known tabletop game called DND, they also stole their class system too.

See what I did there?

DND stole the levelup system from DM!

The point is not who is stealing from whom, but what they advertise for.
If Blizzard would have been bragging about "a revolutionary leveling system" or "breaking PvP in a new dimension" then it's a point to brag about "yo see that, it's nothing new it's already at XY since the dawn of time".
If I'd manufacture a car and say "it doesn't touch the ground" and you buy it just because of that and when you see it, it's just a common car and you start on me because it does touch the ground and I'd say "Oh no, it doesn't, the car is in the air, just the tires touch the ground." then it's a thing to brag about.

Just like I said earlier, there surely are those hooligan facts in all negative posts about something, just words to make the dull minded masses revolt. The "facts" I took fromt he posts were: PvP is all about Zerging the other sides base, Loot is just as mindless random as everywhere, Equipment is mainly for the looks, WAR is just another "attack of the clones", the beta still got some issues -> final conclusion: As if I didn't have known before, I'll try WAR out for some time (most likely 3 or 4 month after it was released so that at least some bugs are fixed) and see if it sucks less than WoW (remember, we all play the MMO we play because the other ones suck more than the one we play) and then decide which one to drop.

Don't be haters, just show me one single game that was released in the past 5 years that really was changing things and did not steal any elements from other games. Guess what, there are none, sad but true. Everything you will see in the next couple of years (until there will be some real good AI developed) will be clones of something else. Just use 40% of cool looking graphics, 30% of cloned game elements, add 10% of your own idea and mix in 20% lore. Then swallow it down, vomit it and here's the new record breaking MMO. Games will only be as innovative as the marketing let's them shine. I for myself think that there will be quite some time we won't see anything new, just all the same stuff made up with some different accents and shinier graphics.
It's just the same thing that gets me tired when I go watch a movie. There always are the same stereotypes.
Horror: Group of people enters a creepy place, half the film just teases you, at about 40 minutes the slaughtering slowly begins, at about 60 minutes there's a small storry breaks, at 70 minutes the remaining heroes join each other to kill the big evil, at 85 minutes all the bad things are slaughtered and you see the credits.
Action: Good vs. Bad, BANG BANG BANG, Bad down and the phat lewt for the good: he get's the girl

And take care not to break a leg or something if you try climbing my walls of text I sometimes drop somewhere in forums

[iindigo]

Somebody in this thread asked why people are so emotionally attached to WoW. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll give my reasoning.

It's pretty simple, really. I don't want to play a different MMO - I've tried a few different MMOs, and WoW has things that others simply can't touch. One of the best examples I can give right now is the underlying story and quests; instead of being pulled out of someone's butt the moment that the MMO was created, World of Warcraft has a rich, deep story and tons of lore that it's being based upon. The story isn't overly simple or one-shot either - it's very intricate and detailed, allowing for interesting and engaging stories and questlines. It also allows for more meaningful and themed expansions.

The other example is World of Warcraft's art direction and graphics. Instead of going with the same old dull, boring, everything-is-either-green-grey-or-brown look that every other MMO had featured up until that point, Blizzard used an inviting and eye-pleasing vivid color palette for most of its game. The style is great, too - depsite being kind of "toony", the art and environments really look great and actually "just click" a lot more easily than a "realistic" style would have. The art team was obviously much more coordinated, too. Instead of having a number of different substyles from different artists mismashed together with no coherence whatsoever (yes, EQ2, I'm talking to you) the style is very consistent and it all fits together nicely. As a cherry on top, WoW doesn't require much of a computer, either, allowing those with less-than-amazing computers to fully experience every single zone, city, and dungeon in all its splendor. This is something that other game companies just don't get - it's not about flashy graphics capabilities and the ability to use that super-expensive and totally unnecessary DirectX 10 card to its limit, but rather great design, style, and consistency throughout the game.

I'm not a raider, though. I raided MC a lot back in the day, but since then I really haven't gotten back into the raiding scene and have focused on leveling, very slowly improving my 70, and occasional PvP instead. I do hope that raiding will be somewhat more accessible in WotLK, since that's a major mistake that Blizz made with TBC.

I will agree that WoW isn't perfect. No game will ever be. But I do think that it's a hell of a lot closer to perfection than a lot give it credit for, and closer than its predecessors ever were. That's why I want to stick with WoW till it's improved rather than being impatient and just jumping to another game whenever things don't go 100% my way.

[Duskfall]

1.
Nuke,
I dont understand mate why you compare now wow which has been out since 3 years now and Warhammer which is only on beta stage.Please.

Somebody in this thread asked why people are so emotionally attached to WoW. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll give my reasoning.

It's pretty simple, really. I don't want to play a different MMO - I've tried a few different MMOs, and WoW has things that others simply can't touch. One of the best examples I can give right now is the underlying story and quests; instead of being pulled out of someone's butt the moment that the MMO was created, World of Warcraft has a rich, deep story and tons of lore that it's being based upon. The story isn't overly simple or one-shot either - it's very intricate and detailed, allowing for interesting and engaging stories and questlines. It also allows for more meaningful and themed expansions.

The other example is World of Warcraft's art direction and graphics. Instead of going with the same old dull, boring, everything-is-either-green-grey-or-brown look that every other MMO had featured up until that point, Blizzard used an inviting and eye-pleasing vivid color palette for most of its game. The style is great, too - depsite being kind of "toony", the art and environments really look great and actually "just click" a lot more easily than a "realistic" style would have. The art team was obviously much more coordinated, too. Instead of having a number of different substyles from different artists mismashed together with no coherence whatsoever (yes, EQ2, I'm talking to you) the style is very consistent and it all fits together nicely. As a cherry on top, WoW doesn't require much of a computer, either, allowing those with less-than-amazing computers to fully experience every single zone, city, and dungeon in all its splendor. This is something that other game companies just don't get - it's not about flashy graphics capabilities and the ability to use that super-expensive and totally unnecessary DirectX 10 card to its limit, but rather great design, style, and consistency throughout the game.

I'm not a raider, though. I raided MC a lot back in the day, but since then I really haven't gotten back into the raiding scene and have focused on leveling, very slowly improving my 70, and occasional PvP instead. I do hope that raiding will be somewhat more accessible in WotLK, since that's a major mistake that Blizz made with TBC.

I will agree that WoW isn't perfect. No game will ever be. But I do think that it's a hell of a lot closer to perfection than a lot give it credit for, and closer than its predecessors ever were. That's why I want to stick with WoW till it's improved rather than being impatient and just jumping to another game whenever things don't go 100% my way.

2.
So the game must be judged of its colour and requirements?I dont think so.I agree with you with the Dx10 thing but this happens to single player games :P As of the story,well the story exists since the dawn of time from warcraft...



3.
I agree that WoW is the best MMO so far,but it really depends on the person.For example most of the people i know who play online games prefer L2 cause they play it in good private server for free and furthermore they like pvp and crafting...Imo L2 isnt as good as WoW but its just opinions.Opinion doesnt mean i swore you like most ppl feel when someone critisizes WoW.

[Nuke]

1.
Nuke,
I dont understand mate why you compare now wow which has been out since 3 years now and Warhammer which is only on beta stage.Please.

The same reason why people claim that WoW is shit and Warhammer is going to be so awesome and will kill World of Warcraft. I just can not stand that bullcrap.

Replace WAR by WoW and you could not tell the difference lol

Except that WoW things are working fine for 7m+ playerbase. And in WoH with all those inventions,beta is closed now for more or less remaking core issues.

[iindigo]

So the game must be judged of its colour and requirements?I dont think so.I agree with you with the Dx10 thing but this happens to single player games :P As of the story,well the story exists since the dawn of time from warcraft...

No, I'm not saying a game should be judged solely on its visuals - I'm just saying that WoW's graphics are much stronger than anything else out there right now. And I don't know about you, but I have a much harder time enjoying a game that looks like a flaming heap of dog crap (EQ, EQ2 mainly) than one that pleases the eyes. When most people look at WoW for the first time, they say, "Wow, that looks like a great game! It's probably pretty fun. I'll give it a try!" because the graphics are so great. The same people wouldn't even have considered a different MMO, however, because of how dull it (probably) looks. So in conclusion, graphics do indeed play a fairly large role in the score of a game.

And yes, I'm aware that WoW's story comes from its RTS predecessors (Warcraft I, II, III and their respective expansions), but that doesn't matter. It's still one of WoW's strong points and something that no other MMO currently has.

[Pyrostemplar]

As MMO market evolves we will see a specialization - WOW may very well be the last time there is a "one-size fits all" MMORPG, although the one that in the future (WoW2?) will tend better the "great mass" will have the larger market.

BTW, WoW visual are nothing outstanding - solid but not really to stare at. GW, LOTRO (if you forget the animations...) are far prettier.

That does not mean it is better or worse - just that it caters for different tastes. As an example is EVE - a niche MMO, and outstanding at that. AFAIK, in terms of consistency you have nothing better on the market, but it is not for everyone - and it doesn't need to be.

On a slightly separate issue (should I make a new thread?.. naah, I'm shy ;D) - I think RPGs are hardly the base for balanced and competitive PVP. An RPG is story and hero character building - that doesn't fit well into PvP (particularly action based mass PvP).

[Duskfall]

The same reason why people claim that WoW is shit and Warhammer is going to be so awesome and will kill World of Warcraft. I just can not stand that bullcrap.

Well the people who say that WAR is going to be better than WoW its just an assumption not a statement as you describe it.As I said before why shall i give 40€ for an expansion while i can play a new game with these money?

Except that WoW things are working fine for 7m+ playerbase. And in WoH with all those inventions,beta is closed now for more or less remaking core issues.

Are they really working fine?I haven't seen one person saying that things are balanced in WoW.As most beta testers say WoH now is pretty crappy.If WoH is in the end better why not moving there?And if its a bubble that blew off like DND well then back to WoW

The very vital thing that excited me in WoH was the fact that gear doesn't matter there.I am tired of the MMO perfection grind farm get an item,be happy for 1 day then repeat the procedure again.

And yes, I'm aware that WoW's story comes from its RTS predecessors (Warcraft I, II, III and their respective expansions), but that doesn't matter. It's still one of WoW's strong points and something that no other MMO currently has.

Doesn't Warhammer have scenario?Its considered to be the second best fantasy game.I don't think we must compare such things.Even D&D which is the best publiced a crappy game.So my opinion is that its not about the story,its about the way they use it,good or badly.

Last but not least i recommend the episode of Southpark Make Love not Warcraft.It says many truths i must say about some people.

[Nuke]

Well the people who say that WAR is going to be better than WoW its just an assumption not a statement as you describe it.

Assumption which they want to put into everyone,and make them them think that WHO has everything what WoW did not. Thats even worse then my statements. At least they are more or less objective.

Are they really working fine?I haven't seen one person saying that things are balanced in WoW.As most beta testers say WoH now is pretty crappy.If WoH is in the end better why not moving there?And if its a bubble that blew off like DND well then back to WoW

I dont recall even one game which was perfectly balanced. Thats logical that game is progressing,improving and if you can hold it in the terms of balance - well,then production's company management and design divisions are doing their job perfectly. Usually - its far from being that easy.

And if you determine balance of what is written on public forums of WoW - those posts and opinions usually come from people who arent even friendly with MMO genre and things which are obvious in MMO appear to be unlogical/imbalanced/stupid for them.

And i am not saying WoH is bad,i just hate those fanboys who arent happy with WoW therefore they go strike on it with statements like "Its shit,WoH is out and WoW is dead in the same moment".

[Ighox]

Nuke, people said the same when Vanguard was being developed
"Soon Vanguard is out, WoW will loose alot of customers!"
That worked out nicely, WoW has gone from 7mill to 8-9mill subscribers since the release of Vanguard.